1 button IWT and dps

[Nikita]

Whats the name of these addons? Or would I better off with getting ISBoxer or HKN?

[Khatovar]

Separate outputs on key down and key up, are only possible because the Warcraft Keyboard API acknowledges them as separate events.

If Blizzards API (which addons use) did not allow for events to be registered on press and/or release, then it would not register those events and no matter how we configured our boxing software -- one would be read and not the other.

It is a feature Blizzard specifically put into the game for addons to use, so you're not going to get into trouble when your software (which uses an addon, completely subject to Blizzards API, to generate the macros) can split events between press and release.

And in case anyone missed it, Blizzard is taking the concept from addons like SnowfallKeypress that allowed you to activate spells on press instead of release and making it part of the default UI.

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/2356431#ui

Spells bound to a key now start to be cast when the button is pressed down by default, instead of waiting for the key to go up. This is an option that can be turned off in the Interface menu under Combat. Mouse clicking has not changed and operates on mouse click up

In any event, the game can't process commands any faster than it can, and using a split keydown/keyup action isn't going to change that. If you don't like keyup and keydown as "counting" as two individual actions, your can just as well send them as steps where first full keydown+keyup is IWT and second full keydown+keyup is DPS. That's the way I do it, no biggie.

[Nikita]

But I dont know how to set this up, probably piss easy. But I have no clue how to :P

[Khatovar]

1. Get ISBoxer or HotKeyNet
2. Follow the instructions in the appropriate links here for basic setup.
3. Follow the instructions for setting up multistep for either ISBoxer or HotKeyNet. While the HKN instructions don't specify using interact with target, you can simply change or add a toggle to refer to your IWT hotkey.

[coglistings]

But you can keybind IWT to "4".
You can have a spell or macro on keys 1 through 3.
You can glue a popsicle stick across keys 1-4, and mash them all at once.

Agree, but then again, no one glues a popsicle stick across these keys. Another point that needs to be dropped as an arguement period. Oh btw, have you ever tried hitting 4 keys at one physically, even with a popsicle stick? cause the game client doesn't always get all of the keys that are pressed...

Interact With Target, like Mind Freeze, like /assist [target=focus], like "W" to move forward, like a lot of other actions is off of the GCD. Meaning you can freely combine that keybind with another action as often as you like, and Blizzard does not mind this. nder the current rules of the game, combining the IWT Keybind with another keystroke will not get you in trouble or subject your account to disciplinary action.


Actually, you can't combine IWT with any keybind ingame since you can't macro IWT, it has to be its own keypress. This brings up another point, spamming multiple keys tied to a singular key. The justification used on this is that the keys that all of the macros are tied to can be placed on the bar, and then another macro that does a "click bar button" line for each of the bar is created and the key for that master bar button clicker is used. since IWT, or any movement key can not be scripted, macroed, inside the wow UI, you are again doing something that fails the litmus test, and is thus against TOU.

Bottom line.
It is a tool that Blizzard is okay with your using.
Decide if you want to take advantage of it, or not.

So far that means a boxing software such as HKN/IS Boxer, possibly others.
Or one of the addons that can send a different key output for Key Up and Key Down.

I think you missed the point of the exercise. that being that while you have used something for over a year or just a day and have not been banned isn't proof that it isn't against the TOU. It just that bliz doesn't abide by their own stated rules or that you haven't been detected yet. This leads you to the conclusion that Blizzard is ok with its use which can't be concluded from what is available.

BTW, continuing to ponder over this, I have become interested in if even programmable keyboards can be sensative to doing an full blow keypress on up. From what I have seen, this is not possible using non altered drivers. Thus your "keyup" events doesn't even exist outside of AHK, KHN, and ISboxer in a fashion that can be used ingame, or any other program. You "advantage" doesn't exist through means ingame because IWT can not be macroed to utalize clickbutton macros. thus, its fails the litmus test of being duplicatble inside of wow, and thus an exploitation of software to gain advantage not otherwise available to other players.

I reinterate, please stop kidding yourself that key-up events can be duplicated in a fashion to utalize interact with target. Spam macros and alternate bar states as much you want as a Turing machine would. But until there is a console command available that can be executed inside a macro, IWT spamming combined with a dps macro in a physical keypress which includes keydown keyup OS keyboard events fails legimacy.

I see the post about chaning the states at which a key press issues a command to theoccur, however, the blue post mention does not have anything said about being able to keybind for a keyup action, nor can the addon specifically bind an action to a key-up event.

Its continues to make me laugh about all of the signs that are ignored by community members on this. the current API waits for the keyup event to issue the command from the keydown event. Isn't this proof positive evidance that although currently, blizard considers a keypress to conclude only on the key - up action and thus key-up can't be considered its own funtion in the blizzard ui?

lolz

[Cptan]

Sorry Nikita, I dun have a Octopus solution for you yet.

Actually I do agree with Coglistings. I dun implement dual actions in a single key down up action, yes I am lazy, but more importantly I dun think it can be done using the game alone. Based on this thinking, I have concern also over using 3rd party software to suppress firing off actions within a certain period of time. Isn't it a well known fact that usage of timer/clock, sleep/wait function in broadcasting software when handling key/mouse click is BAD?

Regardless, I can live with a little inconvenience and hit my 'V' key (my IWT), with my dps key + assist tank key whenever it is needed.

[Lax]

You can glue a popsicle stick across keys 1-4, and mash them all at once.

Agree, but then again, no one glues a popsicle stick across these keys. Another point that needs to be dropped as an arguement period. Oh btw, have you ever tried hitting 4 keys at one physically, even with a popsicle stick? cause the game client doesn't always get all of the keys that are pressed...

Hi. you are a) wrong (credit goes to Kromtor: http://76.74.159.78/modules.jpg; technical note: he does not appear to have used GLUE to create this rig, so if you want to be right THAT bad you can be right) and b) missing the point of the thought experiment. If your glue rig isn't sufficient to press the keys you intended it to press, then your glue rig sucks. Don't blame the concept.

Did you ALSO know that many keyboards have a limitation on the number of keys they will recognize as being pressed at the same time? So if you glued a popsicle stick to 10 keys on the same keyboard, and press it, even the OS won't recognize them all as being pressed? Not all keyboards have this limitation, but if you want something that makes more sense than sucking at gluing things, here's a freebie

Interact With Target, like Mind Freeze, like /assist [target=focus], like "W" to move forward, like a lot of other actions is off of the GCD. Meaning you can freely combine that keybind with another action as often as you like, and Blizzard does not mind this. nder the current rules of the game, combining the IWT Keybind with another keystroke will not get you in trouble or subject your account to disciplinary action.

Actually, you can't combine IWT with any keybind ingame since you can't macro IWT, it has to be its own keypress. This brings up another point, spamming multiple keys tied to a singular key. The justification used on this is that the keys that all of the macros are tied to can be placed on the bar, and then another macro that does a "click bar button" line for each of the bar is created and the key for that master bar button clicker is used. since IWT, or any movement key can not be scripted, macroed, inside the wow UI, you are again doing something that fails the litmus test, and is thus against TOU.

I think you missed the point of the exercise. that being that while you have used something for over a year or just a day and have not been banned isn't proof that it isn't against the TOU. It just that bliz doesn't abide by their own stated rules or that you haven't been detected yet. This leads you to the conclusion that Blizzard is ok with its use which can't be concluded from what is available.

Dude you're like a Tea Partier defending their vision of the constitution, rather than what the constitution actually says -- or without having read it at all. http://www.theonion.com/articles/area-man-passionate-defender-of-what-he-imagines-c,2849/
.... SO SAYETH THE TOU:
TWO KEYS INSTEAD OF ONE,
YOUR ACCOUNT IS DONE!

And all of this misses the entire point of the rules.

The rules are there to protect Blizzard. Blizzard wants to sell this game to millions of people, and are obviously doing well at it. Part of this is because they try to make sure that everyone feels they are on the same playing field, that your time investment in the game is worth as much as someone else's time investment in the game so that you don't feel cheated. When people feel cheated, e.g. because they see someone else hacking the game and getting something that they worked hard or spent a lot of time getting, they no longer want to play the game. Therefore, rules.

Nobody gives a shit if you are physically pressing 1 key, or physically pressing 2 keys, and they also have no idea whether you are physically pressing 1 key, or physically pressing 2 keys. There is absolutely no way for anyone to verify that you are in fact, pressing ALL of these keys yourself, unless you do something like take a video showing it. If you think there are less than HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people who have macros either through multiboxing software or other input device hardware/software, who make a single button that presses TWO buttons instead of just ONE, your head is in the sand.

I am not suggesting that you don't listen to GMs. You should. They are there to help make sure that everyone's game experience is enjoyable. But these are people, and they have their own opinions, their own way of describing things, and so on. They are just as imperfect as you. Let's not pretend that anything and everything a GM says should be (or should be considered to be) written into the TOU.

Here's an example... there used to be a feature where you could click on the minimap (or initiate any minimap ping, as I understand it) in order to aim your ground-targeted AOE spells. So people did that. GM Malkorix made the following statement:

Currently, using pre-recorded x,y coordinates (a function not supported by the default UI at all), to target or cast a spell is functionality outside of our Terms of Use.

I would strongly advise shying away from this program, if it is causing mouse moves (even simulated mouse moves) to occur in response to user inputs.

Mouse moves are the purview of the user, not a program.

That's a pretty damning statement made against a particular product that I believe isn't allowed for discussion here. There are numerous possible interpretations of these GM's statements. There are some absolutely stupid conclusions that can be drawn from these statements, and these are things that would be considered a Golden Rule here on dual-boxing.com. For example... the middle statement implies that the ONLY thing that should be moving the mouse cursor, is "a mouse". But it's just a fucking cursor, it is a point on the monitor and it can be moved in many ways by many types of input controls. The fact that it's controlled by the mouse most of the time is kind of just a coincidence. Let's roll with this though. Couple more concepts. Some laptops (probably very few these days) used to have a little nub that you hold and press in a particular direction in order to move the mouse. Like a thumbstick without the stick. You can't physically move this nub around on your desk, you have to hold it in a particular direction like a joystick, and it can move the cursor faster or slower depending on how hard you are pushing it. And the cursor movement is probably handled... in software (DUN DUN DUN!). You could say that it "simulates mouse moves to occur in response to user inputs", and that therefore it "fails the litmus test and is against the TOU". Right? Wrong: There is nothing about this in the TOU. However, it did fail the GM's litmus test.

There's videos of people playing WoW with Kinect. Kinect can move the cursor, but only through software. You're standing there staring at the screen and waving your arm around, not touching the mouse. The software is causing mouse moves to occur in response to your inputs. Litmus test: failed.

Mouse broadcasting. Software is causing mouse moves to occur in response to your inputs. Litmus test: failed.

Recently I implemented Video Feeds in ISBoxer (where you can see part of window B from inside window A), and as of the last week or so, these feeds now have the option of being fully interactive -- including the mouse. Video Feeds can be scaled however you want, and placed anywhere. So technically, not only are mouse moves being simulated to the video feed source's window (window B), pre-determined location information is used to place the cursor in the right area in that window. Litmus tests: failed failed failed.

But I left something out. When I first implemented Video Feeds, I specifically avoided making them interactive AT ALL, because of these "litmus tests". Then I asked Blizzard about it, and by that I don't mean I petitioned to ask a GM, this is higher up in the ability-to-ban-you (and even detect-you) chain. I showed a screenshot of my GUI with the video feeds, described exactly how it would work, explained that this would involve offsetting and scaling the mouse position to match the feed, etc. After a couple weeks, the response I got is as follows: "While we can't officially endorse it from our end, this seems like a pretty cool feature to us." Litmus test: passed.

Moral of the story: GM does not equal EULA/TOU.

I also HAVE to quote this EQ2 GM http://eq2wire.com/2009/12/22/son-of-banhammer/ - original post linked from there, I google the eq2wire article when I need to find this:

There hasn't been a change to policy or the EULA.
That clause has always been there. That is what allows us to nuke the farmers and plat sellers that we all loathe so much.
If you're not doing something you shouldn't be doing, multi-boxing is fine.
Those who wish to look for loopholes to allow them to do it in shady ways always will. There is nothing in there that says you cannot multi-box. It just says you can't use a program to automate it.
People are over-reacting and troll-feeding. And really... holiday weight gain or no, the trolls don't need the extra calories.
Please stop trying to read into it anything that says we're going to start nuking our legitimate players for playing more than one account at a time...

There was a huge uproar over whether multiboxers would be banned in EQ2 (p.s. it's been a year and a half and they haven't banned people for multiboxing). This is the response. The GM is describing you. The GM, and the article, are both saying exactly what is described on the "Is ISBoxer Allowed?" page: http://isboxer.com/index.php/is-isboxer-allowed. (Recommended reading!)

TL;DR: Litmus tests are bullshit

[coglistings]

Dude you're like a Tea Partier defending their vision of the constitution, rather than what the constitution actually says -- or without having read it at all.

.... SO SAYETH THE TOU:
TWO KEYS INSTEAD OF ONE,
YOUR ACCOUNT IS DONE!

attacking the messager does not prove your point, sorry. BTW i do love tea IRL, but do not attend tea partier parties, so I can't say if your description of me is accurate or not. I read the onion when I want a ridicious laugh, not when I want to quote foreign policy especially since they are an entertainment magazine and not a journalist source. But wait a second, didn't you just try to compare a person with imagined facts to a person who is imaginary? I think the Onion's joke is actually on you, especially since Mr Mortensen is not even imagined to be a tea-partier in the article. You do know that the articles in the news articles in there are made up right?.

None of my comments are based in a self created ideas but rather follow a clear logical train from blue posts that I have quoted and linked for your own verification, How that would related to somone who doesn't read what he quotes fails comparison naturaly accepted by most people. Thus, you are clearly makeing a personal attact instead of argueing your point.

My point on entering into the conversation on this is not to say, "HOW DARE YOU" but rather honesty to ourselves and the community when people ask about the legimicy of a feature, software, etc. I can not help you if you are cut by the truth. You have a decision on how you play the game and if you want to stick to the cores of what is stated allowed vs. what is more convient. As stated in my other post, there is a slim likehood of notice being taken on this, but it is still nether the less, a risk that is introduced and we need to not lie to ourselves, and then the community about it.

While we can't officially endorse it from our end, this seems like a pretty cool feature to us." Litmus test: passed.

Recently I implemented Video Feeds in ISBoxer (where you can see part of window B from inside window A), and as of the last week or so, these feeds now have the option of being fully interactive -- including the mouse. Video Feeds can be scaled however you want, and placed anywhere. So technically, not only are mouse moves being simulated to the video feed source's window (window B), pre-determined location information is used to place the cursor in the right area in that window. Litmus tests: failed failed failed.

its nice to see the extension of the topic from binding IWT to a keyup event being legitimate or not, to all of the other issues you have experienced in your development of ISBoxer, however, it confuses the point and brings in items not inheriantly relevant to the arguement. Also, the addition of those topics does not shed light on how IWT activation on a Keyup event is a legitimate under TOU. It however seems more like a cry out that "look at all of these other things that may have been bad before that are ok now. by ok, i mean no one I know of has gotten banned by it, and by now, I mean so far..." My arguement attempts to establish the precidance for why IWT on a keyup event is not permissable.

the litmus test I described is the replication of a software ability to have its actions recreated ingame using ingame macros/ mechanics. you incorrectly applied the litmus test to things that the exact description wouldn't allow at least three times in your post. I don't know if you just hate litmus tests cause you can taste the bitter flavor, but lets at least use the test for what it was intended for instead of trying to call it the Unified goverance test for all rules of wow.

I do see your point on the vagueness of the GM's comments when taken at face value, but when taken in context as to what was being disussed, his statement isn't over-reaching when applied to the topic. There is a resaon why the context of what was being discussed and the program being mentioned is so very important. In this case, I believe that he was reffering to a program that clicks on a xy cord not through mouse broadcasting or cursor broadcasting, but rather through just a keypress, and not a mousepress. That was what made it bad, since you couldn't bind a key to a predetermined mouse click action ingame. Nice try of a red herring though.

if you want to define a seperate litmus test of "some customer server tech approves of what I am doing", then by all means, go ahead. I hear it worked out for Athene pretty well when the chips were down. I believe that you were pointing toward this but I am uncertain how it furthers the arument since GM != Forum Customer Service Rep. I have quoted blue posts and built my arguements around the logic introduced by those posts. These are the same posts that have also been used to defend the legimacy of multiboxing in the wow community. Strange strat to toss dirt on the very core posts that establish the legimicy of multiboxers to argue a software features legimacy in multiboxing. lolz

If you think there are less than HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of people who have macros either through multiboxing software or other input device hardware/software, who make a single button that presses TWO buttons instead of just ONE, your head is in the sand.

as stated on wow forums, programmable keyboards that spam keys for a user are not permitted by the TOU and is a bannable offense. remember the n52 bans? the horrible number of people that got their honnor reset plus 72 hour account suspensions over the use of poor automation? the people who kept on doing it after their 72 hour bans, got permibanned. Your GM Malkorix is pretty clear that one key means one key in his quotes listed on the dual-boxing wiki, even if it is just one other key.

Our RL counterexample is speeding tickets. IE, take a stretch of road that is usually unpatrolled and just begs to be sped on becuase of light timing, convience, etc. Now lets put a cop there one morning and have tickets issued to offenders. Your defense of "you are putting your head in the sand if you think (that 10 thousand other people don't speed on this roadway everyday)" will get you the same fine as if you pled guilty.

browsing the dual-boxing wiki under GM conversations, having one key do multiple key presses on events that can not be repeasted ingame pops all over the citations. So why do you use examples that follow "everyone is doing it," "as long as blizzard gets its money and the majority of customers are happy, I can do what I want," "GM's comments can be wildely constured," and my favorite "ZOMG look at the guy waving his arms and jumping IRL fail at getting his ingame character to do anything other than stand there and die from lvl1 critter attacks..... I WANT ONE" as an attempt to legitimise it?

bahh, probably going to be called a nazi and mass murder in the next posts, oh wellzs

[coglistings]

Oh I can't step away from it without actually saying it. I offer this to you for your pondering. The US constitution is very rarely quoted in any proceeding of constitutionality of an act or protection. What is is previous opinions of courts with reasonable juristiction over the topic and belief. Thus, just knowing what the constitution says gives you almost a fake understanding of what rights you and the state actually have and how to defend both the rights of victums and defendants. For this, you would have to read court opinions and engage in discussion. It actually is quite intriguing even if we are seen as "old school" by our europeen neighbors.

[Lax]

I must have hit a soft spot.

You do know that the articles in the news articles in there are made up right?.

Yes. I am glad you got the point of me linking to THE ONION that has a funny article about you! Lighten up! I never said the article called the man a tea partier, I said something relevant to what you're doing, then I added a link that that made me think of, and I wrote a poem! I'm happy that we can share and enjoy satire together.

as stated on wow forums, programmable keyboards that spam keys for a user are not permitted by the TOU and is a bannable offense. remember the n52 bans? the horrible number of people that got their honnor reset plus 72 hour account suspensions over the use of poor automation? the people who kept on doing it after their 72 hour bans, got permibanned. Your GM Malkorix is pretty clear that one key means one key in his quotes listed on the dual-boxing wiki, even if it is just one other key.

Because it sounds like you missed it, here's a quote from me on page one of this thread: http://www.dual-boxing.com/showpost....44&postcount=6

Here is what you need to know:
1. You become "automatic" when something happens without you manually adjusting some input control (key, switch, dpad, joystick, throttle, slider, motion sensor, etc) to kick off that action at that particular time. Example... some gamepads have a continuous fire mode where it will repeatedly press a button over and over at some time interval. Any delayed action is considered to be a part of this category.
2. You become a "bot" when you sense game information (e.g. player's health) in order to automatically respond to it (e.g. heal, switch dps modes, etc)

These are both not allowed in WoW, or most other games. Neither of these things are available in ISBoxer (or most other multiboxing software).

... so I'm glad that we're on the same page with automation. But that's not what I am talking about when I say "spam keys"... If you program your n52 to repeatedly press a key (or different spells in sequence for example), this requires delayed action that isn't happening at the time of them pressing the n52 key. I am talking only about pressing and releasing keys at the time you are pressing and releasing physical buttons or moving other physical controls (or in some cases, as with the Kinect, not even physical controls).

its nice to see the extension of the topic from binding IWT to a keyup event being legitimate or not, to all of the other issues you have experienced in your development of ISBoxer, however, it confuses the point and brings in items not inheriantly relevant to the arguement. Also, the addition of those topics does not shed light on how IWT activation on a Keyup event is a legitimate under TOU. It however seems more like a cry out that "look at all of these other things that may have been bad before that are ok now. by ok, i mean no one I know of has gotten banned by it, and by now, I mean so far..." My arguement attempts to establish the precidance for why IWT on a keyup event is not permissable.

This is irrelevant because it doesn't need to be on keyup. It can be done at the same time as your attack. You can press your IWT key at the same time as your DPS key. Like holding 1 and 2. You can also hold W and A to go forward and left (with the default WASD).

Some people prefer to separate that into one on key down one on key up. Okay. Why not? This is two separate input events. WoW fires these separate events for Addons, too. They recently changed hotkeys to fire on press by default, with an option to fire on release, probably because some WoW Addons did that and people liked it. Did you ever notice that sometimes outside ideas get incorporated into games, because they're good ideas?

Some buttons are physically toggle buttons, they stick down when you push them, so that you have to push it again to pop it back up. Pretty much all keyboards have logical toggle buttons -- caps lock, num lock, scroll lock -- so it should be relatively simple for you to imagine changing that digital control to an analog control. A toggle button is like a switch. So say I have a switch control (and actually I do on a few keyboards), should I not be allowed to make that control do something when I move it to the left, and then something else when I move it to the right? What if I move the switch to the left and to the right really quickly? What if I have a whole panel of switches! ... now, why exactly did you want me to have to pay for a switch panel when I have this perfectly good keyboard, a G13, and a Razer Naga?

My entire point of describing various types of input controls and ways of interacting with the game is because there are some really genuinely cool things that people are doing, that these so-called "litmus tests" from blue posts (which as you have so kindly made sure to point out, are not necessarily GMs, but that's entirely beside the point) that are so often quoted, may not even be relevant to at all. These input controls are based on the precisely same things that you're saying should not be allowed.

Blizzard are working hard on real problems, they don't want to police petty bullshit like whether or not you are allowed to use a joystick, dpad, foot pedal, Kinect, dial, switch, push button, toggle button, etc to control your character. They just don't want you to automate or bot. That is what is in the TOU. Keyup/keydown is not in the TOU and you are not setting precedent...

Edit: Also on topic, Steelseries advertises their Officially Blizzard-licensed Shift Cataclysm keyboard (another keyboard I picked up) with this specific capability displayed in the Cataclysm keyboard promotion:

3. Record a sequence of actions, with delays included, and map them all to a single key

Source: http://steelseries.com/products/game...hift-cataclysm