Frost DKs

[Firstcow]

Considering the buffs to Frost Strike, Howling Blast and Blood Runes becoming Death Runes permanently in Frost spec, do any of you have any theorycrafting to decide between haste and mastery for 2h Frost DK?

I changed between mastery and haste several times now and atm I find haste better in Arena. The reason is because the more hits I can get in while the target is melee range the better. Usually a smart target will not stay in melee range more than 2-3 seconds. With mastery and especially if you stay in Frost Presence, you get one hit or two, and by the 3rd second your target is out of range.

So what do you guys think? Haste or mastery in 4.1?

[xtobbenx]

I would say Mastery all the way.

Let me explain, with Hast yuo hit a bit faster with your auto attacks. As you say, the target will be in melee just a few sec.. and for those few sec hast will max give you 1 more white attack from all guys. so you might get 3 white instead of 2 white.. yeah ? Its also a mater of Killing machin procs which i tested out going max hast on my DK and i didnt really see it procing more often, I'm DW ofc. so i will have it procking on most of its hiden CD anyway.

With mastery you will in same sinario hit 2 instead of 3 white hits, but your FS hit harder for the hits you get on them then. And when they move out of range you might wanna finish off with HB and ofc you want that to hit harder then.

What i dont understand is why ppl go 2h when DW is more dps anyway ? As a DK you want to crit, since crits from a DK hit harder then all other classes. So DW will produse alot more crits throught killing machine then 2h's.

Any reason why so many use 2hs as boxers ? i solo played as DW frost for a long time.

[Ualaa]

Not that it is totally applicable to boxing always, but the pvp section on Elitistjerks suggests for a Frost DK:
5% Hit > 195+ Spell Pen > Haste > Mastery > Crit

Part of Haste, is more Runic Power... which is more Frost Strikes.
Part of Mastery is harder hitting Frost Strikes/Howling Blasts.



The thread suggested a Two-Hander and Unholy Presence, which is what I'm doing.
So I'll lean towards Haste > Mastery, but am not sure it is a huge difference as they're both nice bonuses.

[Firstcow]

Not that it is totally applicable to boxing always, but the pvp section on Elitistjerks suggests for a Frost DK:
5% Hit > 195+ Spell Pen > Haste > Mastery > Crit

Part of Haste, is more Runic Power... which is more Frost Strikes.
Part of Mastery is harder hitting Frost Strikes/Howling Blasts.



The thread suggested a Two-Hander and Unholy Presence, which is what I'm doing.
So I'll lean towards Haste > Mastery, but am not sure it is a huge difference as they're both nice bonuses.

Do you have a direct link? I can never find my way around that website.

[Shodokan]

I would say Mastery all the way.

Let me explain, with Hast yuo hit a bit faster with your auto attacks. As you say, the target will be in melee just a few sec.. and for those few sec hast will max give you 1 more white attack from all guys. so you might get 3 white instead of 2 white.. yeah ? Its also a mater of Killing machin procs which i tested out going max hast on my DK and i didnt really see it procing more often, I'm DW ofc. so i will have it procking on most of its hiden CD anyway.

With mastery you will in same sinario hit 2 instead of 3 white hits, but your FS hit harder for the hits you get on them then. And when they move out of range you might wanna finish off with HB and ofc you want that to hit harder then.

What i dont understand is why ppl go 2h when DW is more dps anyway ? As a DK you want to crit, since crits from a DK hit harder then all other classes. So DW will produse alot more crits throught killing machine then 2h's.

Any reason why so many use 2hs as boxers ? i solo played as DW frost for a long time.

Ok lets go through this post and dissect it.

Haste increases rune regeneration and not just the speed at which you autoattack. If they are using 2h weapons and they get 3 to 2 ratio for attacks then they have more chances to use frost strike than the dual wield user which gives you more runes to use over time. With the runes being death runes 100% i think that it is key to make sure you are getting them back as fast as possible which haste does indeed help with.

Your argument that you do more damage with howling blast/frost strike is fine but in the end it is the fact that you are either going to get ~10% damage increase per attack or increase the amount of attacks done because of rune regeneration. This also comes into play with the whole 2 hander vs dual wield since your 2hander when you swing has a chance to allow you to gain runic power which can effectively give you more frost strikes thus more overall damage in a PVP setting.

Killing machine has no "hidden" aspect to it and is based upon weapon speed. There are times when you get it 3 times in a row and times when you get it none for 10 seconds.

Dual wield does about equal damage with frost strike and obliterate as 2h, and 2h gets more frost strikes... and generates more runic power. The ONLY time you should be using dual wield is if you are running with proc based trinkets with no ICD like hurricane for the RNG damage. Dual wield only hits as hard as 2h if not a little harder for frost strike and oblit...it does nothing for necrotic.

So basically it comes down to...
faster rune regeneration =more rune based attacks = more runic power = more chances to get more runes
or
more damage = more damage

[xtobbenx]

Shodokan:

I dont belive this is correct. Last week i wanted to test hast out, so i reforged all item into hast, I used a trinket with 253 hast. had a total of 53% hast. I start hiting a target dummy and was expecting my runes to come off CD faster but no, they was still on 9 and 8 sec when i did 2 obli in a raw. I could not see any speed change in which the runes it self would come back from CD. but i did see that my runic power bar got full quite fast. You can test this out but i cant see that i noticed anything happening with the CD on the runes it self.

That said, thoes 3 sec in melee on a target will still be the same for both, only that the hast DK will get 1 more white, while the mastery will have its FS or HB hiting harder.

And rune gaining as DW is really not a problem, In arena (i solo play) i hardly ever get a free global CD in which i would need more runic power. Its more of the opposite where i get it full before i'm done with my obli, BS rotation.

[ghonosyph]

shodokan is correct, the rune regeneration DOES speed up, but you wont PHYSICALLY notice it without an exact rune timer addon, and to actually see a full second come off the rune regen you're going to have to have over 80 % haste... COULD get there, but you'd sacrifice more dmg than you'd want/wouldn't be effective.

The reason you don't go DW in pvp is that armor double dips, you're taking a dps hit twice(one on each hand) due to the armor contribution. On one hand, dw does mean a few more white hits and it will seem like more steady dmg, the two hander makes for more burst.

In any case i imagine i'll be using the two hander for a while I'll be using a dps sequence of 2 howling blast 4 necrotic strikes, runic empowerment 3 obliterates. then popping howling blast off the rime procs. Since howling blast will be our mostly bread and butter for putting pressure out, the more mastery we have, the better it will be imo. Haste works great, but imo with frost strike AND howling blast AND frost fever(our frost damage over time) we're seeing a LOT of benefit from mastery.

[Noids]

I'm with Ghono here. I forge for mastery on my guys simply for the reason that 80% of my damage comes from frost damage spells. On a percentage damage per point basis mastery gives a better improvement to these spells than haste.

The other thing I like about the mastery is that it effectively increases my burst. Sure over a full rune regen cycle this will even out but if I can open with 2-4 howling blasts from 30y which get an extra 30% from mastery, over a 1-3 second period, then the opening pressure is so much more than if those runes regenerate in 9 seconds instead of 10. If you are running in frost rather than unholy then you can argue that haste will be more value as it lowers your GCD too, but the extra run speed from unholy is too valuable to give up.

I think as boxers we have a different damage profile than single boxers which means that we tend to rely more on the easy ranged spells like howling blast for damage than the extra physical dps from whit hits and oblits. For this reason I believe that stat weighting should be more along the lines of:

+195 spell pen>5% hit>str>mastery>haste>crit

In arena spell pen is unbelievable. 95% percent of teams you face will be running 195 frost resist through auras. This gives something like 25% frost damage reduction so for those 195 stat points you effectively get a 25% increase of 80% of your damage. I completely underrated the need for this initially but to me, these numbers more than justify preferring this over hit even before cap. Where this falls down is if your enemy doesn't have any resist, the stat obviously has no value.

In 4.10 with the extra HBs coming from death runes and the buf to HB and FS, I think this is going to be even more true. What makes frost DKs so great for boxing is the flexibility of dps. Basically we are a resilient melee class that has awesome ranged spell based damage. Choose your stats to maximise this aspect rather than the melee physical damage and you will maximise this advantage.

[Ualaa]

Do you have a direct link? I can never find my way around that website.

I waded through thirty odd pages of the stupid thread.
The Cataclysm stuff wasn't at the start or the end.

Looking at others posts in this thread, I can see Mastery > Haste, for a boxer.
If you were micromanaging your toon, and had more time on the target... maybe Haste would be worth more.

I've found in BG's (haven't done arena yet with DK's + Pally), I'm fairly busy.
Just spamming my '1' key.
Which is my weighted castsequence and IWT.
And then mostly Tab to target, the odd Backspace (for Deathgrip, once I have a good target).
And mouse click the raid, or at least those close to me.

Rather than properly manage my cooldowns.
I've hitting/spamming Lichborne, Anti-Magic, just prior to engaging...
And then using Icebound Fortitude if I'm stunned.
Just got the 301 res, pvp trinket for the DK's in the last BG; their first piece of honor gear.
I've got Pillar keybound, but am not in the habit of using it.

[Sephice]

For me 2H > 2 x 1H in PvP

With Dual Wield you make more auto Hits and more Auto Hit Damage, 2H is more Style Damage -_-

i have both weapons but i hate me that i buyed the one handed weapons -_-

For a Boxer i think is 2h the best way but i play it with mastery because haste is great but only for runegeneration its too low as Boxer (autohits dont matter as boxer )