Mosg2's DK Manifesto

[Fat Tire]

We're essentially UnCCable for the first 10-12 seconds of a fight. If you read what I said with an eye to actually looking at what I said and not just trying to refute the viability of DK's you will notice I was talking about cloth classes, not paladins. Also this is not a ret paladin versus DK thread so why bring it up, this is discussing DK's not Retadins. Retadins might be able to blow someone up once every 2 minutes, but that isn't any different than DK's, only DK's do that DPS via aoe with much larger toolbox to control the fight and keep your guys actually DPSing. For me the biggest weakness of paladins, is once that cooldown burst is gone and you are dealing DPS via melee range. Well IWT is pretty bad at maximizing actual melee range DPS. This is what makes DK's in my opinion better at that, aoe snares keeping your target perma 50% movement speed. Easier to keep IWTing melee toons doing the funky chicken actually on the guy you're attacking.

I'm fairly certain that resto druids/boomkin, shamans, priests, mages, warlocks, rogues are not going to have 100k+ hp at level 85 immediately. Eventually yes, but then our DPS will also have scaled relative to that increase in HP to a large extent.

Yes, 74k in 2 seconds and that is without crits. I am talking about fresh level 85's. Most people are not going to have blue PvP sets for awhile what with them all using eternium which is the RARE ore in Cata. Once people throw resil into the mix, I would expect that basic ratio of survivability to DPS to stay roughly the same, what with the increase in DPS we will get from the same gear + weapons.

You would be 100% wrong

[Mercbeast]

You would be 100% wrong

Care to give me hard numbers? I know that they boosted HP again awhile back but I don't know by how much. So please give me some hard numbers instead of "100% wrong"

Guy on my server who is in beta is saying around 80k for a fresh 85 cloth class, up to around 100k for a tank. With t11 gear tanks will be 150k+ and DPS 110k.

So is this refutable or not?

[remanz]

We're essentially UnCCable for the first 10-12 seconds of a fight. If you read what I said with an eye to actually looking at what I said and not just trying to refute the viability of DK's you will notice I was talking about cloth classes, not paladins. Also this is not a ret paladin versus DK thread so why bring it up, this is discussing DK's not Retadins. Retadins might be able to blow someone up once every 2 minutes, but that isn't any different than DK's, only DK's do that DPS via aoe with much larger toolbox to control the fight and keep your guys actually DPSing. For me the biggest weakness of paladins, is once that cooldown burst is gone and you are dealing DPS via melee range. Well IWT is pretty bad at maximizing actual melee range DPS. This is what makes DK's in my opinion better at that, aoe snares keeping your target perma 50% movement speed. Easier to keep IWTing melee toons doing the funky chicken actually on the guy you're attacking.

I'm fairly certain that resto druids/boomkin, shamans, priests, mages, warlocks, rogues are not going to have 100k+ hp at level 85 immediately. Eventually yes, but then our DPS will also have scaled relative to that increase in HP to a large extent.

Yes, 74k in 2 seconds and that is without crits. I am talking about fresh level 85's. Most people are not going to have blue PvP sets for awhile what with them all using eternium which is the RARE ore in Cata. Once people throw resil into the mix, I would expect that basic ratio of survivability to DPS to stay roughly the same, what with the increase in DPS we will get from the same gear + weapons.

I am not saying rets are better than dks. I am just saying your target won't go down that fast like I originally stated. viability of DK's is well recognized. I am merely stating the difficulties for melee zerging in general.

The entire strats for melee as of right now is based on zerg down someone fast.

[Mercbeast]

I am not saying rets are better than dks. I am just saying your target won't go down that fast like I originally stated. viability of DK's is well recognized. I am merely stating the difficulties for melee zerging in general.

The entire strats for melee as of right now is based on zerg down someone fast.

Of course, but I don't think it is as bad as you make it out to sound. Everyone I've talked to from beta says DK HB = 6k to 13k crit fresh 85 and HP for fresh 85's is 80-100k~.

This gives us the potential to jack someone in 2 GCD's which in my opinion is pretty fast and even if it doesn't people are going to be redlining HP wise where you should be able to capitalize on at least 1 person to kill.

[Ualaa]

The other thing is, with four toons dealing DPS, we can down one toon in two globals or so.
Our toons should then survive at least four attacks, and possibly not fall until the eighth attack.

Battlegrounds, like Wintergrasp/Tol Barad are going to be more hectic than arena.
Imbalanced sides will be the norm, both in our favor and not.

I'd think the increased durability of toons in general, favors boxers more then non-boxers.
And we still have the edge in coordination of burst, whether we down someone in 2 or 5 GCD's.

[Fat Tire]

Care to give me hard numbers? I know that they boosted HP again awhile back but I don't know by how much. So please give me some hard numbers instead of "100% wrong"

Guy on my server who is in beta is saying around 80k for a fresh 85 cloth class, up to around 100k for a tank. With t11 gear tanks will be 150k+ and DPS 110k.

So is this refutable or not?

When my lock hit 85, I had the blue set right away which I think most people who have saved their honor will have. 127k hps and all the people I fought had between 115k and 140k

So yea for a fresh cloth class that buys the blue pvp set boom, non refutable proof. However, since cata just started there is no need to speculate any longer.

[Nisch]

That HealerMain/TankAlt is how I did boxing in Aion and it worked out really well. I hadn't tried it in WoW as I hadn't re-upped my accounts, but I like the idea. Nice vid

[remanz]

My friend's mage hit level 85. and he did some instances and some brief pvp.

He has about 100k hp in quest blue and normal level 85 dungeon drop, non-pvp gear, unbuffed. With pvp gear, it will be around 110-120k hp as Fat mentioned, may be even more.

There are a couple things concerning stats currently happening.

My friend's mage was doing 10k dps at level 80. When he hits 85, as now, he is doing 6k dps. His haste/hit/crit all below 10%. and Healers go OOM all the time (good news I guess), in both pvp and pve. The mana cost went way up for healing spells.

Time to zerg in pvp

[Mosg2]

I'm here to confirm that Necrotic Strike puts up an individual debuff for each character doing NS and... It stacks with itself. If you NS twice in a row it just adds the second amount to the first.

Going now to test if when I heal it removes healing from each debuff or just one.

[Shodokan]

so you hit 83? grats!

and i fucking told you guys lol