Mosg2's DK Manifesto

[Ualaa]

If you disregard Necrotic Strike, a single Frost DK cannot DPS a Holy Pally down.
Could four Frost DK's, without Necrotic Strike DPS a single Holy Pally down?
Or would the healing from one toon outheal the DPS from four, at least as long as mana lasts?

[Mercbeast]

disagree on which part , x4 dk spamming HB => NS => FS => BS can kill a holy paladin in 3 seconds ?

I can tell you up front. That's not going to happen.

Perhaps not but it is all relative. Nobody is going to blow a paladin up in 3 seconds period. Judging the effectiveness of a class based on an impossible proposition is silly. However in addition to Paladins being essentially insta unjackable, the changes in burst and health are relative.

The overall DPS you can put out with DK's combined with plate survivability, insane control oh and a significant portion of that DPS is ranged and it snares. A Paladin might not die in 3s, a mage might not die in 3s (frost and on the ball) but most other high priority targets will.

Now, if the Paladin just stands there, he will go down pretty darn quick, and we can help push that 'just standing there' thing along with strangulate and we can chain 4.

[Mercbeast]

If you disregard Necrotic Strike, a single Frost DK cannot DPS a Holy Pally down.
Could four Frost DK's, without Necrotic Strike DPS a single Holy Pally down?
Or would the healing from one toon outheal the DPS from four, at least as long as mana lasts?

I think even worse than a holy paladin is a prot paladin. 1v1 a DK isn't going to kill one period ;p I'm still considering a prot pali team driven by a DK. Not really as a backup, but to be different and to be extremely annoying in BG's ;p

[remanz]

Like i said, best bet is to target a warlock.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=62618 is not going to be good for melee teams.


with 4 dk + 1 healer, and dks last long enough to down the target with healing of their own is possible. Basically, put the other side's healer behind on healing, and you kill your target slowly. This is very possible. But if you leave the other 4 targets free for too long, they start to CC your healer + your DKs.

and

I just assume there is no prod. If there is, ignore him and kill others.

[remanz]

Perhaps not but it is all relative. Nobody is going to blow a paladin up in 3 seconds period. Judging the effectiveness of a class based on an impossible proposition is silly. However in addition to Paladins being essentially insta unjackable, the changes in burst and health are relative.

The overall DPS you can put out with DK's combined with plate survivability, insane control oh and a significant portion of that DPS is ranged and it snares. A Paladin might not die in 3s, a mage might not die in 3s (frost and on the ball) but most other high priority targets will.

Now, if the Paladin just stands there, he will go down pretty darn quick, and we can help push that 'just standing there' thing along with strangulate and we can chain 4.

The holy paladin doesn't even have to bubble is what I mean. Simply use divine protection + instant heal.
From what I've seen, nothing goes down in 3 seconds, even with x 4 melee DPS on him. We are obviously discussing pvp opponents that have a clue, Not those mages die without iceblock.

[Shodokan]

The holy paladin doesn't even have to bubble is what I mean. Simply use divine protection + instant heal.
From what I've seen, nothing goes down in 3 seconds, even with x 4 melee DPS on him. We are obviously discussing pvp opponents that have a clue, Not those mages die without iceblock.

Pally will be an easy kill without the bubble for this team.

Strangulate + interupts + CC.

They will be a pain without cooldowns of our own though.

[Mercbeast]

The holy paladin doesn't even have to bubble is what I mean. Simply use divine protection + instant heal.
From what I've seen, nothing goes down in 3 seconds, even with x 4 melee DPS on him. We are obviously discussing pvp opponents that have a clue, Not those mages die without iceblock.

Correct me if I am wrong, but cloth will be sitting around 80k HP at 85 in quest blues.

Presuming DK is in unholy stance and uses blood tap as an opener, that is minimum 24k x 3 (6k x4)x3 or 72k in 2 seconds.

First HB hits at 0s second hits at 1s third hits at 2s give or take a few hundred MS for latency.

That is enough burst to red line cloth enough for your paladin to hammer the target. Now, if we blow our reset, that is another 72k MINIMUM inside 3 more seconds. This gives us the capability of hitting with AoE for a minimum of ~144k in 5 seconds.

The reality is you are going to get some crits which will push the first number north of 80k and the second number closer to 180k than 140k.

Now this is theorycrafting, but this is not an unlikely scenario in BG's. This was infact my bread and butter in the opening move of an AB. Wait for a fight to start and be fashionably late. By fashionably late I mean I blew up pretty much anyone within the radius of my HB barrage ;p

In this scenario where you blow your reset you have to accept that people will get healing, but, and this is a big but, anything short of a healed tank is probably going to die in those 5 seconds. Remember that in 5s most of what you hit with your first HB will not be able to escape the 10 yard kill zone because they are all snared.

Either way you have killed people and you are probably looking at a bunch more who are critically injured and the healers are way way behind.

We will kill people. There is no question.

[Mercbeast]

Like i said, best bet is to target a warlock.

http://www.wowhead.com/spell=62618 is not going to be good for melee teams.


with 4 dk + 1 healer, and dks last long enough to down the target with healing of their own is possible. Basically, put the other side's healer behind on healing, and you kill your target slowly. This is very possible. But if you leave the other 4 targets free for too long, they start to CC your healer + your DKs.

and

I just assume there is no prod. If there is, ignore him and kill others.

Can you not grip your target out of there?

[remanz]

Correct me if I am wrong, but cloth will be sitting around 80k HP at 85 in quest blues.

Presuming DK is in unholy stance and uses blood tap as an opener, that is minimum 24k x 3 (6k x4)x3 or 72k in 2 seconds.

First HB hits at 0s second hits at 1s third hits at 2s give or take a few hundred MS for latency.

That is enough burst to red line cloth enough for your paladin to hammer the target. Now, if we blow our reset, that is another 72k MINIMUM inside 3 more seconds. This gives us the capability of hitting with AoE for a minimum of ~144k in 5 seconds.

The reality is you are going to get some crits which will push the first number north of 80k and the second number closer to 180k than 140k.

Now this is theorycrafting, but this is not an unlikely scenario in BG's. This was infact my bread and butter in the opening move of an AB. Wait for a fight to start and be fashionably late. By fashionably late I mean I blew up pretty much anyone within the radius of my HB barrage ;p

In this scenario where you blow your reset you have to accept that people will get healing, but, and this is a big but, anything short of a healed tank is probably going to die in those 5 seconds. Remember that in 5s most of what you hit with your first HB will not be able to escape the 10 yard kill zone because they are all snared.

Either way you have killed people and you are probably looking at a bunch more who are critically injured and the healers are way way behind.

We will kill people. There is no question.

What happens to my 20% reduction from defensive skills. 80k for 2 seconds, really? if it is that simple, I have 5 ret paladin open wings and throw a 20k crit hammer at you (the hammer crits chance is like 70%). 5 hammers I be done. No escape. and that's only 1 skill from the rets.

The reality is, you open on them. They open on you. With any sort of CC, you are not getting your full damage out.

And who are the cloth really, priest/warlock/mage. Disc priest has mail like armors with talent, the barrier will be used on top of your team when you try to surround the priest. Frost mage has barrier and can simply range nova you before you can grip him. That leaves just warlock, which is your best killing target.

As for HP, I see 120k. I didn't see 80k at level 85 with pvp entry level gears.

[Mercbeast]

What happens to my 20% reduction from defensive skills. 80k for 2 seconds, really? if it is that simple, I have 5 ret paladin open wings and throw a 20k crit hammer at you (the hammer crits chance is like 70%). 5 hammers I be done. No escape. and that's only 1 skill from the rets.

The reality is, you open on them. They open on you. With any sort of CC, you are not getting your full damage out.

And who are the cloth really, priest/warlock/mage. Disc priest has mail like armors with talent, the barrier will be used on top of your team when you try to surround the priest. Frost mage has barrier and can simply range nova you before you can grip him. That leaves just warlock, which is your best killing target.

As for HP, I see 120k. I didn't see 80k at level 85 with pvp entry level gears.

We're essentially UnCCable for the first 10-12 seconds of a fight. If you read what I said with an eye to actually looking at what I said and not just trying to refute the viability of DK's you will notice I was talking about cloth classes, not paladins. Also this is not a ret paladin versus DK thread so why bring it up, this is discussing DK's not Retadins. Retadins might be able to blow someone up once every 2 minutes, but that isn't any different than DK's, only DK's do that DPS via aoe with much larger toolbox to control the fight and keep your guys actually DPSing. For me the biggest weakness of paladins, is once that cooldown burst is gone and you are dealing DPS via melee range. Well IWT is pretty bad at maximizing actual melee range DPS. This is what makes DK's in my opinion better at that, aoe snares keeping your target perma 50% movement speed. Easier to keep IWTing melee toons doing the funky chicken actually on the guy you're attacking.

I'm fairly certain that resto druids/boomkin, shamans, priests, mages, warlocks, rogues are not going to have 100k+ hp at level 85 immediately. Eventually yes, but then our DPS will also have scaled relative to that increase in HP to a large extent.

Yes, 74k in 2 seconds and that is without crits. I am talking about fresh level 85's. Most people are not going to have blue PvP sets for awhile what with them all using eternium which is the RARE ore in Cata. Once people throw resil into the mix, I would expect that basic ratio of survivability to DPS to stay roughly the same, what with the increase in DPS we will get from the same gear + weapons.