Mosg2's DK Manifesto

[Boylston]

I think enough has been said about the DKs. About time to make it happen.

As good as rets, they were/are an one trick pony, gimmick team. Lack the staying power and heavily rely on frontal burst zerg fest. If my frontal burst doesn't kill, I just flat out lose. Rarely I see come backs.

Hope the DKs can take it to new height.

Despite poking at the topic a little bit, I am also very optimistic about this composition. I am going to dance with the Shamans that brought me, however, at launch. I made a mistake at WotLK launch and leveled a team first that I thought had potential but hadn't been proven. Then I leveled my shamans, just in time to be behind the gear-curve in arena. Switched to DK+Rets after that, again, just in time to see the resilience nerf hit hard. I regret not having just played the shammies first and stuck with them totally.

I think the things that are positive about the team are that there's a good way to keep people in your swarming melee blender without being kited all over the place, the damage should be strong and consistent, I think there are some decent tools for managing fear and other MBer problems, and the unique tools of Necrotic Strike and high Howling Blast range/damage/AoE look like they'll scale well for boxing.

I worry that the DK class will undergo some tweaking and some of these factors evaporate, but honestly, that's an issue with any team. Shamans could get the Lava Burst nerfbat tomorrow that would have a big impact on their effectiveness. The Frost DK mechanics are both new and have big PvE/PvP impact, so I think they're more "at risk" for change.

That said, I have a little team of DKs that's out of the starter area and ready to go should you guys prove that this is a winner comp. Even if it's not a quad-shaman killer, I'm sure I'll have a second melee team of DKs at some point...

Hugs and kisses,

Boylston

[Shodokan]

Despite poking at the topic a little bit, I am also very optimistic about this composition. I am going to dance with the Shamans that brought me, however, at launch. I made a mistake at WotLK launch and leveled a team first that I thought had potential but hadn't been proven. Then I leveled my shamans, just in time to be behind the gear-curve in arena. Switched to DK+Rets after that, again, just in time to see the resilience nerf hit hard. I regret not having just played the shammies first and stuck with them totally.

I think the things that are positive about the team are that there's a good way to keep people in your swarming melee blender without being kited all over the place, the damage should be strong and consistent, I think there are some decent tools for managing fear and other MBer problems, and the unique tools of Necrotic Strike and high Howling Blast range/damage/AoE look like they'll scale well for boxing.

I worry that the DK class will undergo some tweaking and some of these factors evaporate, but honestly, that's an issue with any team. Shamans could get the Lava Burst nerfbat tomorrow that would have a big impact on their effectiveness. The Frost DK mechanics are both new and have big PvE/PvP impact, so I think they're more "at risk" for change.

That said, I have a little team of DKs that's out of the starter area and ready to go should you guys prove that this is a winner comp. Even if it's not a quad-shaman killer, I'm sure I'll have a second melee team of DKs at some point...

Hugs and kisses,

Boylston

There are a lot of factors for the DK's that could get the nerfbat, but they like shaman remained mostly the same throughout beta. The damage factor isn't that high for howling blast, i mean it scales with AP and nothing else, so you're looking at maybe 5k base damage. The weapon damage and weapon swing attacks do a lot though, especially obliterate. But most people probrably wont be using that one much.

As far as nerfable things:

HB scaling via amount of targets. Damage won't be lowered... even at 85 it's not that much extra compared to now unfortunately (at least a GEARED dk)
Necrotic can be made to only have 1 of the debuff on the target at once
Runic power generation for 2 handers could go down
Reworking of some talents
Nerf to mastery (with reforged crap, and no mastery from gems and stuff my dude has 35% extra frost damage)
Nerf to obliterate damage
Nerf to glyph of howling blast

There's quite a bit, but the class as it stands is pretty balanced in comparison to a lot of other classes. All those nerfs are manageable though. Would they suck? yeah, they would really suck... but every attack does 100% weapon damage at least and you get like 6 attacks every 5 seconds or so plus autoattacks... and all the utility.

The thing that really makes this team for me is deathgrip x 4, and all the anti-CC + damage mitigation they possess along with their consistent damage. Being behind in pvp gear might hurt a bit, but it wont make or break the team... we've seen people get to 1800 in full furious when people were in wrathful... two seasons of gear behind and still do well.

[Slats]

Just hit 66 don't think I'll make it to 80 before Tuesday but I will be at least in Northrend and have my Priest setup.

Need to move all my Shaman CC and toggles and focus crap for Cata instances onto my X-keys and I'm ready to rock.

[Shodokan]

Ok i just needed to post this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEbC5UukrAA

premades vs premades.

dks hit for...

howling blast non crit: 6kish
howling blast crit: 12kish
frost strike non crit: 8k
necrotic strike non crit: 4kish
oblit crits: 20k ish
autoattack crits: 6kish
blood strike non crit: 3kish

assuming no crits... we're looking at a basic rotation of

howling blast x 2> necrotic strike x 2 > blood strike x 2> frost strike x 4 > howling blast x 4 > necrotic x 2 > frost strike x 4

12k > 8k > 6k > 40k > 24k > 8k > 40k total time elapsed = 20 seconds damage done = 140k dps = 6.9k per dk

total damage for 4 dks over 20 seconds = 560k or 28k dps meaning it will take between 4 and 7 seconds to kill someone. average 5 second rotation would be something like 40k per dk or so

there really is no burst other than a barrage of frost strikes, especially because crit is so low at 85.

but if you notice how long it takes the dk to die... it is damage that can be healed through (us healing through them), with anti-healing and such we have the advantage. we don't however have enough burst to kill someone in a single shot like shamans do, they will be the only class to global someone on a regular basis.

TLDR: theres nothing to nerf.

found a vid of pvp set druid only getting crit for 15k by lavaburst... just to let ya know
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2vBDwK5BpU&feature=fvst

[tanknspanker]

Ok i just needed to post this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEbC5UukrAA

premades vs premades.

dks hit for...

howling blast non crit: 6kish
howling blast crit: 12kish
frost strike non crit: 8k
necrotic strike non crit: 4kish
oblit crits: 20k ish
autoattack crits: 6kish
blood strike non crit: 3kish

assuming no crits... we're looking at a basic rotation of

howling blast x 2> necrotic strike x 2 > blood strike x 2> frost strike x 4 > howling blast x 4 > necrotic x 2 > frost strike x 4

12k > 8k > 6k > 40k > 24k > 8k > 40k total time elapsed = 20 seconds damage done = 140k dps = 6.9k per dk

total damage for 4 dks over 20 seconds = 560k or 28k dps meaning it will take between 4 and 7 seconds to kill someone. average 5 second rotation would be something like 40k per dk or so

there really is no burst other than a barrage of frost strikes, especially because crit is so low at 85.

but if you notice how long it takes the dk to die... it is damage that can be healed through (us healing through them), with anti-healing and such we have the advantage. we don't however have enough burst to kill someone in a single shot like shamans do, they will be the only class to global someone on a regular basis.

TLDR: theres nothing to nerf.

found a vid of pvp set druid only getting crit for 15k by lavaburst... just to let ya know
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2vBDwK5BpU&feature=fvst

very nice work right there ^^
how's ur team working atm? ^^

[tanknspanker]

from where i am right now.. cc's will not be an option with the dk's ..
except mindfreeze cause its free
but like hungering cold needs runic power.. but runic power is being dumped in frost strikes..
strangulate requires a blood rune.
and chains of ice requires a frost rune.
maybe some ideas from mosg or shodokan or any other dk boxer?

[zenga]

from where i am right now.. cc's will not be an option with the dk's ..
except mindfreeze cause its free
but like hungering cold needs runic power.. but runic power is being dumped in frost strikes..
strangulate requires a blood rune.
and chains of ice requires a frost rune.
maybe some ideas from mosg or shodokan or any other dk boxer?

hungering cold does not require rp
horn of winter generates 10 rp every 20 seconds
strangulate requires 1 blood rune, but you have blood tap every minute
and you have empored rune weapon on a 5 minute cooldown

it's the idea behind the dk design to make the best choice for each situation - given a limited amount of resources, but there are enough freebies to achieve that

[Ualaa]

Howling Blast is one of the main abilities of the team.
Glyphed, it applies Frost Fever to any target hit.
Talented, Frost Fever applies a 50% snare to targets.
We will glyph it HB and talent FF, so no need for Chains of Ice.

I'd probably not bother with Strangulate, given Mind Freeze will fire off every 2.5 seconds or so.



The main specials I'd use are:
- Anti-Magic Shell, lasts 7 seconds if glyphed and provides immunity to most debuff effects, and is usable every 45 seconds.
- Icebound Fortitude, 12 seconds of stun immunity, every 3 minutes.
- Lichborne, 10 seconds of Fear/Charm/Sleep immunity, every 2 minutes.
- Pillars of Frost, 20 seconds of knockback/pushback immunity, every minute.
- PvP trinket, every 2 minutes.

They don't really last a very long time, but they're relatively short cooldowns.
And they virtually guarantee someone goes down, when you Necrotic Strike while immune to CC's.

When the pattern is, a battle at Blacksmith... then move to Lumber Mill and defend/attack there... we should have a good number of the cooldowns for each encounter.

[tanknspanker]

hungering cold does not require rp
horn of winter generates 10 rp every 20 seconds
strangulate requires 1 blood rune, but you have blood tap every minute
and you have empored rune weapon on a 5 minute cooldown

it's the idea behind the dk design to make the best choice for each situation - given a limited amount of resources, but there are enough freebies to achieve that

glyphed that is

forgot to tell you that i was talking bout lower lvl's ^^

greetingz

[tanknspanker]

Howling Blast is one of the main abilities of the team.
Glyphed, it applies Frost Fever to any target hit.
Talented, Frost Fever applies a 50% snare to targets.
We will glyph it HB and talent FF, so no need for Chains of Ice.

I'd probably not bother with Strangulate, given Mind Freeze will fire off every 2.5 seconds or so.



The main specials I'd use are:
- Anti-Magic Shell, lasts 7 seconds if glyphed and provides immunity to most debuff effects, and is usable every 45 seconds.
- Icebound Fortitude, 12 seconds of stun immunity, every 3 minutes.
- Lichborne, 10 seconds of Fear/Charm/Sleep immunity, every 2 minutes.
- Pillars of Frost, 20 seconds of knockback/pushback immunity, every minute.
- PvP trinket, every 2 minutes.

They don't really last a very long time, but they're relatively short cooldowns.
And they virtually guarantee someone goes down, when you Necrotic Strike while immune to CC's.

When the pattern is, a battle at Blacksmith... then move to Lumber Mill and defend/attack there... we should have a good number of the cooldowns for each encounter.

TBH when i'm in a bg i just dont know when to hit icebound fortitude .. just like lichborn and pilars of frost
when entering a warlock i assume you just instant lichborne just like a priest, but the other 2 ?

greetingz