Mosg2's DK Manifesto

[Toned]

DK's are OP again news at 11.

Last 2 weeks that I've done ICC with Reprisal I've ran my 4melee mixed group instead of bringing my shamans to shard everything. My DK is very undergeared and im running a 2handed frost setup pulling crazy numbers.

If they don't nerf the stacking NS this group will be the alternative to shamans + healer multibox pvp imo.

[Mosg2]

@Toned:
As it stands now, if I understand it correctly, the debuff doesn't "stack" in the sense that consecutive NS's don't just add to the running total--They just reset it to a higher value and refresh the debuff (-30% cast speed). If it does indeed actually stack then this team is going to be the runaway best team to play for Cata.

@All:
Good discussion so far. I think everyone has brought up a lot of valid points but I'd like to say that I'm really surprised people *actually* think that Rets will be a workable team in Cata. Yes, your healing is spread out over 4 toons which makes it harder to CC your healing--But your healing also sucks. There's no way for you to ensure that you're only going to be using WoG when it's at 3 HP without *seriously* lowering your DPS. That means that you never really know how much healing you're going to get when you hit your button. Also, you're one-dimensional as 4x Rets regarding healing--You can WoG. You can Holy Radiance. That's about all you can do in a combat situation. Having a dedicated healer means you have options. You have versatility.

Also, let's not mention that you lose serious DPS in order to heal.

The DK's don't have any of these problems. They DPS like madmen while I heal like a madman. If someone gets on me I DG them off. Or I aura mastery and keep healing. Or I bubble. Or I shield. And meanwhile my DK's are saying hi to whoever is most threatening.

[Shodokan]

The trend I see is, if anything is OP, it will be nerfed. and nerfed very quickly. Stacking NS seems very OP to me. I felt 4DK and DK + 4 Rets are kinda on the same boat.

I like frost dk's burst and control. but they die hella fast. At least at level 80, they die like arm/fury warrior.The melee arena match, how long does it really last? More like 30seconds. The match total time is like 2mins. and minus the beginning and ending (clean up), the meaningful fighting time is like 30 seconds. Whatever you can come up in those 30 seconds matters. Wings and bubbles have their places. Death Grip and NS are also awesome. But they are all melees, and melees have similar problems.

Now if you get a friend the heal you, and you use 4 dks. That's a different story. that >>>> playing Dk + 4rets all by yourself, as far as effectiveness goes.

I had a long talk with a GM the other night about multi-boxing when i called to see if i could get a discount for x-fering all my toons which lasted for about an hour. We talked about specific mechanics that are abusable by a boxer such as necrotic strike etc and from the horses mouth unless the class is unbalanced overall and not just in a fashion that a VERY insignificant amount of users actually participate in then those abilities will remain as is. If we want to talk about things being OP in multiples... then both fulmination and lavaburst would not be in the game, but they are balanced around a single person using them on a single target so they remain. If a shaman didn't have lavaburst then ele would be complete ass.

On to NS. NS does not stack for every hit, it stacks based on the amount of people doing it on the target. Which means that if you NS and then NS again it just resets the amount back to the max amount of heals necessary, not NS1 + NS2 - Healing done to that target between the two attacks = new healing required. If this debuff does a checksome as to "is this buff on from another player" it then makes that button useless and ultimately the spell useless because you can use plague strike instead for more damage.

Arms warriors played by a skilled player are one of the single best pvp characters in the game. Comparing them to fury also isn't the best comparison because i barely ever see a fury warrior able to compete even 1v1 against a lot of classes, dks have tooks for taking out and preventing things from every class... so comparing them to a class and spec with a lax amount tools for certain situations isn't the best route. Even then warriors have last stand, shield wall, spell reflect, frenzied regeneration, howl of terror etc...

If you are talking purely about arena... the up front burst of a 4 paladin dk team with ranged hammer of wrath is unparalleled, especially if you have inquisition on. But the MAJOR problem for this in arena is that you can't blow this straight off the bat against any team with a priest... mass dispel kills your cooldown use, like bubbles avenging wrath can be dispeled.

Survivability of a shaman team is much larger than a paladin team and their damage is ranged and just as high. At 85 a single lavaburst + mastery proc is equal to about 50k damage... thats a lot and that is PER shaman. The target will die, even with pain suppression. Shaman get totems etc etc... we all know how practical shaman are. The largest advantage a shaman have over the paladin/dk team is that all of their attacks do high damage and fulmination as group is OP as all hell. If you have max fulmination you can guarantee the target will die from 4 of them. Lightning bolt also hits for a baseline amount of like over 10,000... which if you think about it you are doing 1/3 of someone's life every non crit. Not to mention the ability to flash heal someone for like... 1/2 their hp because it is 4 of them in flaky situations, plus you have purge and lust.

So for arena... shaman are superior to DK/Ret.

This team i see like the rets as a 1trick pony in arena though. Pop your anti-CC macro and spam the fuck out of howling blast and frost strike and kill 1-2 people. Then pick the rest off easily. Realistically the numbers for a single attack for a DK are close to 1/3 of their life per attack, so it will take 2-3 attacks to kill someone, but at the same time if NS is up they can't be healed so it doesn't matter. The largest problem for 4x dk team is that they need to use 2 blood runes before they can do their maximum burst potential. Unlike paladins and shaman dks don't have an instagib... but right now my frost strikes and howling blasts in meh gear are hitting for like 14k... so even at those numbers you are killing someone in 2-3 attacks, which because of unholy presence is <3 seconds. You get much more control over the situation in a lot of maps... and if you DG someone to you they are dead before they can be healed plain and simple.

Like i said though, arena is going to be on the back burner in comparison, even a lot of the arena players on Illidan and other hot spots for PVP like servers on BG9 are all happy that they get to do something that requires more than just coordination of cooldowns and switching at the correct times.

I myself am going to play both shaman and paladin/dks. Lavaburst is too powerful... period. 20k+ crits = at least 80% of their life gone, thats if you don't use unleash weapon first. I'm doing paladin + 4 dks, and 4 shaman, and will run my healer for both comps.

@Toned:
As it stands now, if I understand it correctly, the debuff doesn't "stack" in the sense that consecutive NS's don't just add to the running total--They just reset it to a higher value and refresh the debuff (-30% cast speed). If it does indeed actually stack then this team is going to be the runaway best team to play for Cata.

As of right now every DK gets their applied. So it "stacks" as in each DK gets their own anti-healing debuff on the target. It resets when the thing is used again, keeping them at -30% casting speed. So for example you have 10,000 AP and your NS has anti-healing of 7.5k, they get a heal of 6k, you NS again... they need 7.5k again before they can get heals again... not 8.5k (the 1k not used from before + new application). One debuff is consumed when they get 7.5k. So lets assume you have 4 debuffs on the target... it requires 31k healing before they get a bit of their hp actually healed.

Can NS be nerfed? OFC it can., but will it? I doubt it. Every other class with a MS effect (priest, hunter, rogue, mage, warrior) gets -10% healing for a duration and does not lose it's effect when they are healed. So in 10 seconds someone gets off 4 flash of lights + 2 holy shocks... 10% of all that healing is down the tubes (lets assume 10k), not just the first 7500 and then they get the rest. 7500 is much less than the 10% debuff over the duration (which resets when re-applied) so sure their first heal makes NS go away, where as the next heal or two after ends up being more healing prevented than the time it takes for regen of unholy runes. No the 10%'s do not stack, but NS and MS effect do so it makes no sense to make NS not exclusive with itself unless you make it non exclusive with other negative healing effects.

[remanz]

Wait wait, so it doesn't stack as ++. It merely reset the timer and amount to max.


Then remind me why it was OP again ?


since we have gone a great deal about this discussion, best if we pull out some numbers. What does necrotic strke really hit for @85 and how much healing does it really prevent ?

hitting for 10k prevent 4k-5k incoming heals ?

Does 5k really matter that much when incoming WOG is like 20k.


Sure you got 4k-5k debuff on your target 100% of the time. How is that better than 10% healing debuff from 1 guy.

[BrothelMeister]

Wait wait, so it doesn't stack as ++. It merely reset the timer and amount to max.


Then remind me why it was OP again ?


since we have gone a great deal about this discussion, best if we pull out some numbers. What does necrotic strke really hit for @85 and how much healing does it really prevent ?

hitting for 10k prevent 4k-5k incoming heals ?

Does 5k really matter that much when incoming WOG is like 20k

What I read from Shokodan is that each NS will reduce the incoming healing by 7500 per DK, so tha means everytime you apply it (twice per 9-10 sec) the incoming healing is cut down by 30K with 4 DKs. One GCD dropping the incoming healing by 30K, while dealing 10K+ damage isn't bad.

But at the same time, Wings+Hammer will be hitting for 16-20K per Ret pally (so 80K crit damage) depending on Inquisition from 30y away is twice the effective dent on the HP for 1 GCD.

As for Ret healing, any Ret that doesn't spec into Selfless healer for the +50% healing on other targets is a fool since you never need to cast the heal on yourself, and it gives you a 4%/8%/12% damage bonus when you do so. That with the +healing done and healing recieved talents in the Prot tree should make for some decent incoming heals.

@Shodokan
We're on the same BG, so we can get in vent and queue for 5v5 skirmishes against each other to try this out. I would be very curious to try my team against yours. I have awful gear, but we can try this tonight if you want, I think skirmishes are still available... hit me up with a PM if you want.

[Shodokan]

What I read from Shokodan is that each NS will reduce the incoming healing by 7500 per DK, so tha means everytime you apply it (twice per 9-10 sec) the incoming healing is cut down by 30K with 4 DKs. One GCD dropping the incoming healing by 30K, while dealing 10K+ damage isn't bad.

But at the same time, Wings+Hammer will be hitting for 16-20K per Ret pally (so 80K crit damage) depending on Inquisition from 30y away is twice the effective dent on the HP for 1 GCD.

As for Ret healing, any Ret that doesn't spec into Selfless healer for the +50% healing on other targets is a fool since you never need to cast the heal on yourself, and it gives you a 4%/8%/12% damage bonus when you do so. That with the +healing done and healing recieved talents in the Prot tree should make for some decent incoming heals.

@Shodokan
We're on the same BG, so we can get in vent and queue for 5v5 skirmishes against each other to try this out. I would be very curious to try my team against yours. I have awful gear, but we can try this tonight if you want, I think skirmishes are still available... hit me up with a PM if you want.

I am dinging 80 tonight dude, and it's arena is a whole different ballgame, like i stated a bunch of times...arena is not the pvp focus anymore. DKs + healer is not meant for arena imo, though they would destroy shaman. We don't even need to go into arena to know you'd win. My pally would be dead unless i pop bubble when you wings, and then the healing isn't enough to keep enough damage off of the incoming target from a focus fire of 5. I loved my DK/Ret team, yes they will do well in ARENA because of the wings + HoW. Using AMS wont help because the first of 4 HoW will take it off, and the other 3 will kill him. But then i have like 6 seconds to howling blast you to death before you get another chance to HoW... thinking about it... it could go either way really.

I'll be glad to skirmish when i know that my health wont be 100% gone at 85 from HoW =P I'll be glad to show you that you can't heal through DK's onslaught though if that's what you are looking to find out.

I'll PM you my vent info and we can talk when i get home if you'd like. Just sit in the welcome channel.

[remanz]

What I read from Shokodan is that each NS will reduce the incoming healing by 7500 per DK, so tha means everytime you apply it (twice per 9-10 sec) the incoming healing is cut down by 30K with 4 DKs. One GCD dropping the incoming healing by 30K, while dealing 10K+ damage isn't bad.

But at the same time, Wings+Hammer will be hitting for 16-20K per Ret pally (so 80K crit damage) depending on Inquisition from 30y away is twice the effective dent on the HP for 1 GCD.

As for Ret healing, any Ret that doesn't spec into Selfless healer for the +50% healing on other targets is a fool since you never need to cast the heal on yourself, and it gives you a 4%/8%/12% damage bonus when you do so. That with the +healing done and healing recieved talents in the Prot tree should make for some decent incoming heals.

@Shodokan
We're on the same BG, so we can get in vent and queue for 5v5 skirmishes against each other to try this out. I would be very curious to try my team against yours. I have awful gear, but we can try this tonight if you want, I think skirmishes are still available... hit me up with a PM if you want.

Ok reduce incoming heals by 30k over the entire attacking period 10 seconds is different from flat out reduce incoming heal 30k by 1 shot. Say I got MS on you, reduce healing by 10%. And in 10 seconds, the healer pumps out 300k (made up number), the effect is the same. You negate 30k healing in both cases. The difference here being, the more healing you get, the bigger the effect for 10% MS debuff. and 30k from NS stays flat.

So at the end of the day, it is just a MS like 10% healing debuff. having more DK only makes sure the debuff will stay on 100% of the time.

[Shodokan]

Ok reduce incoming heals by 30k over the entire attacking period 10 seconds is different from flat out reduce incoming heal 30k by 1 shot. Say I got MS on you, reduce healing by 10%. And in 10 seconds, the healer pumps out 300k (made up number), the effect is the same. You negate 30k healing in both cases. The difference here being, the more healing you get, the bigger the effect for 10% MS debuff. and 30k from NS stays flat.

So at the end of the day, it is just a MS like 10% healing debuff. having more DK only makes sure the debuff will stay on 100% of the time.

As of right now it stacks, i tested it on beta. There are 4 separate debuffs. It is 30k with the 4, it is 7.5k alone.

[tanknspanker]

I'd love to see a dk team with high arena points..
did anyone already tried arena with dk's?
cause when i just look at the pvp movie of mosg, i c he gets feared badly (in arithi basin it was i think)
and he needed to pickup again
im just a bit "scared" to start this combo cause of the different rune cooldowns and procs..

[remanz]

As of right now it stacks, i tested it on beta. There are 4 separate debuffs. It is 30k with the 4, it is 7.5k alone.

hm so

30k in 1 shot aye ? So my incoming 30k WOG crit becomes 0 when it hits, due to having 4 NS debuff on me. But 1 heal will wipe out 4 debuffs.


OR

30k incoming WOG crit hits, reduced by 7.5k , 22.5k still goes through. And NS debuff reduced to 3. In this case, it is nothing but MS. I would look at it as the same as 10% MS