Cataclysm: The Ret Paladin- AKA Multi-Box Burst PVP Machines.

[Fat Tire]

I don't know man. If you look at the killing potential of melee vs casters in general for BG's I think the melee is just plain going to win out. Shrug.

If only killing mattered in Bgs. I have held the mine node in AB on my druid solo for 3 mins against 5 opposing players and I didnt kill a single one. I like to think that I helped win that game. Just moonfire the clicker and run (heal) run back and moonfire/hurricane the clicker/s, rinse repeat until help arrived. Even though I died when help did finally arrive ><

I must have missed it where melee were better killers than range in bgs. The only Bg where killing matters is the fc in wsg. You can win all the Bgs conceivability without killing anyone.

If your talking about just yourself boxing, then thats cool, but that is a pretty generalized statement. I am not saying you wrong, however. (dont wanna start any dramalama)

[Shodokan]

Hmmm. I'm trying to figure out if a DK or a Warrior would be better to lead the Rets with in Cata. With the nerf to Chains of Ice all the DK brings that the Warrior doesn't trump is Death Grip. Charge/Intercept and Improved Hamstring I think are better in the sense that they allow the Warrior to stick on a target better.

What do you all think?

Edit: Ebon Plaguebringer is a not-insignificant amount of damage that the DK would add vice the Warrior. The 4% increase to physical damage that the Warrior adds just isn't even close. In any case, discuss!

Frost
1. The sheer amount of burst potential from a deathknight roatation is scary... 3x frost strikes + 3x obliterates HURTS.
2. It has anti-fear so even when your paladins are ya know...feared you can continue with some pressure.
3. Lichborne = ability to heal oneself with deathcoils
4. Howling blast no longer has a cooldown
5. Pillars of ice = not able to be thunderstormed, knocked down etc.
6. 50% snare for 10 seconds AFTER chains is over.
7. 20% increased attack speed for paladins
8. Can use desecration as a 50% snare on the ground near you.
9. 4% increased physical damage taken.
10. Hungering cold.



Unholy
1. Again... the burst of say 6 scourge strikes in a row HURTS. The main attack also puts down desecration.
2. It has anti-fear so even when your paladins are ya know...feared you can continue with some pressure.
3. Lichborne = ability to heal oneself with deathcoils
4. Desecration = AOE snare
5. Autoattacks can make you get free death coils (more damage)
6. Summon gargoyle does a pretty significant amount of damage
7. Anti-Magic Zone = lol @ boxing shaman... or any caster.
8. Unholy blight makes it so you can keep pressure on someone who you aren't attacking via pestilence + death coil.
9. Pet + pet stun + Damage if you transform it
10. 8% extra damage from your paladins since holy = magic damage
11. Autoattacks hit harder due to 30% of the overall damage being added and done as shadow. With the new rune system this is kind of important especially since your autoattacks don't generate runic power unlike with frost.
12. 15% extra str = more ap = takes longer to heal through necrotic strike + damage to autoattacks and such.



All death knights
1. Chains of ice (yes it got the nerf bat but it's still good)
2. Death grip
3. Ranged silence
4. Interupt.
5. Anti-healing strike
6. Strike to make diseases last longer.
7. its a freaking deathknight.
8. anti-magic shell (helpful)
9. Defensive cooldown (icebound fort)
10. dark simulacrum (at least as of now you can steal seals... so duel one of your paladins and give him the seal before doing arena bgs or w/e)
11. Pet sac to get life back in a tight spot
12. Runic empowerment: When you use your Death Coil, Frost Strike, or Rune Strike ability, you have a 45% chance to activate a random fully depleted rune.


Arms warrior
1. Mortal strike
2. Colossal smash
3. Throwdown
4. Charge, intercept... and talented charge hits multiple targets
5. Gets 6% extra healing
6. Overpower does a lot of damage and with your bleed on them you get it every 6 seconds.
7. 4% increased physical damage taken when under a bleed effect
8. Extra damage executes etc after mortal strike.
9. AOE fear.
10. BLADESTORM

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They are both great classes... but i feel that the frost deathknight brings the most to the table.

1. 20% haste to paladins (yes please)
2. >110% weapon damage as frost attacks (frost strike) and can string up to 3 of these together
3. reliable runic power, dont need to keep track of random procs as much unlike the autoattack proc from unholy.
4. Obliterate talented and glyphed does [(1.6 x weapon damage + 1054) (.30)] (.25) = ~ 2.8x weapon damage + ~2500
5. Hungering cold!
6. Anti-imparement and such
7. THREE snares.... chibilians, desecration AND chains of ice.

The damage of a frost strike is more than double that of a death coil... so yeah. Utility wise i think frost is better, especially now that it can get desecration if you really need it from plague strike.

Frost > Unholy > Warrior IMO. But it all depends on how you play. The DK is FAR more benificial to the group and has better survivability since you won't be intervening healers and such and you are better off pulling stuff TO you or slowing it reliably than spamming attacks to do so.

Frost

[Mosg2]

@Fat Tire:
I do understand that killing isn't everything but at the same time I think you're post comes across like you're underestimating it. Yes, smart play can be/often is better than just plain killing but smart play+being able to steamroll through people is better imo~. /shrug

@Shodokan:
I appreciate the points you make. I'm going to continue to think about this The MS effect is pretty huge.

[Shodokan]

@Fat Tire:
I do understand that killing isn't everything but at the same time I think you're post comes across like you're underestimating it. Yes, smart play can be/often is better than just plain killing but smart play+being able to steamroll through people is better imo~. /shrug

@Shodokan:
I appreciate the points you make. I'm going to continue to think about this The MS effect is pretty huge.

If mortal strike is pushing you to play a warrior, then you are concerned about out-damaging a healer when you output up to 120k in a single hit and most "special" attack doing upwards to 50 or 60k per button press.... There is no way a healer can keep up with that in cata unless there is multiple healers. So the mortal strike becomes a moot point and the utility you get otherwise becomes more worth while.

The damage from an empowered pet = awesome.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-aaAOEMeSE

[ghonosyph]

remember, damage numbers are NOT yet tuned... blizzard's stated that several times already. The damage may seem awesome but the tuning phase of beta is still yet to come.

As for the MS debate, i think that health pools are going to be much larger than what we're thinking, mana will matter much more to healers as it is now, and being able to stress the healers by makin heals less powerful via MS = straining mana. Now we're not for sure gonna know until we get farther into beta, the numbers get tuned, and we see some of the first pvp gear. Mana matters a TON right now... it will continue to. Will our burst be able to keep up? Yes, it will in pve gear... where crit actually makes a damn. In pvp, our crit will get reduced and will be much less valuable due to the resilience reductions. As well crit rating is kinda bleh, as in we need a ton of crit, as the values got reduced due to level ranges... thats all a moot point tho, that gets fixed with gear over time.

[Shodokan]

remember, damage numbers are NOT yet tuned... blizzard's stated that several times already. The damage may seem awesome but the tuning phase of beta is still yet to come.

As for the MS debate, i think that health pools are going to be much larger than what we're thinking, mana will matter much more to healers as it is now, and being able to stress the healers by makin heals less powerful via MS = straining mana. Now we're not for sure gonna know until we get farther into beta, the numbers get tuned, and we see some of the first pvp gear. Mana matters a TON right now... it will continue to. Will our burst be able to keep up? Yes, it will in pve gear... where crit actually makes a damn. In pvp, our crit will get reduced and will be much less valuable due to the resilience reductions. As well crit rating is kinda bleh, as in we need a ton of crit, as the values got reduced due to level ranges... thats all a moot point tho, that gets fixed with gear over time.

The planned release date is november 23rd... the beta isn't THAT much longer. Yes there will be tuning, but as blizzard stated... MOST classes they are decently happy with. Yes resil will take some damage off, but it won't reduce our crit chance anymore only overall damage taken. The amount of damage being done will strain healers enough IMO. With the nerf to exorcism in this past patch it seems like it is at a decent place now... and with gear will still be hitting for upwards to 20 to 25k.

Also keep in mind that the bonus from t11 2 piece will be a requirement IMO for PVP. 10% extra damage makes it do a total of like 250% wep damage. Large increase.

[ghonosyph]

dk is almost a must at this point, given they've fixed sanctity of battle = 20 % haste = faster crusader strikes = faster to 3 holy power for big dmg. i did some dungeons as dps just a little bit ago, and i'm still not pulling higher than 5 or 6 k dps, and in the same gear my dk does about 11k... not fair TUNE BETTER BLIXZZZOIMOMGOMGOMG lol

[Noids]

I'm not convinced about writing off a blood DK build for PvP. Sure it is not going to put out sustained dps like the other two specs, but PvP is not about sustained dps, its about burst. Blood has always been good for burst and with improved death strike and DRW it s still going to be good. The only trade off is that you will have huge survivability and miss out on a couple of the spec related snares. As a bonus, if anyone actually decides to attack you, you will start to generate stacks of vengeance which will put your damage on par with any of the dps classes. Again, all theorycraft here, but would be cool if one of you guys in Beta could look into it

[ghonosyph]

no, blood will only be good for tanking dmg, and most arena'ers wont be going for him anyway. Vengeance wont stack that much, and its not going to be "on par" with any dps, it will do a decent bit of sustained dmg but nothing like the new dps can do

[Shodokan]

New mastery...

Hand of Light: Your autoattacks have a 8% chance to grant Hand of Light, causing your next Holy Power ability to consume no Holy Power and to cast as if 3 Holy Power were consumed. Each point of Mastery increases the chance by an additional 1%.

Tested boxing on the PTR...

Unless you are hitting with TV... you do like no damage.