Talking to Bornakk about Raid Rewards in Cata

[Khatovar]

/sigh Show me where, ever, just once, I have said, inferred, hinted or otherwise stated that this would be closing off a small guilds only avenue of advancement? Anywhere.......

First, I said people, not YOU. Second, I never said that ANYONE said that this is the only way to level, I said that people are acting like the only way to level with significant progress is through a big guild. Nowhere in that sentence did I say anything about raiding. What I inferred, however, is that it's all just more whiny Chicken Little BS.

Because as a natural principle of game development wouldn't you want any new system to be open to all players?

Um, yeah, that's why anyone who has a guild in WoW will be able to participate in the Guild Perks system, no matter the size of the guild. Because you gain experience in many different ways, including small group and solo play.

If the system weren't open to all playstyles shouldn't there be a specific reason for that?

The system IS open to all playstyles.

Why do I have to prove that 5-player guilds are entitled to this? The burden of proof should be on the other side proving why 5 player guilds shouldn't be entitled to this.

You want a reason? Because come raid night, when you're up against non-trivial content in appropriate gear, if 3 people don't show up, a real guild, who actually raids together still has a chance of being able to make some progress in that raid. Likewise, 20 people could probably work through a 25 man, 12 certainly aren't. Anyone else they pug would just be a bonus to make things easier.

Since small guilds are being slightly disadvantaged by the 7/10 raid requirement I think it is fair to say that this system is slightly anti-small guild.

And I think it's far more appropriate to say it's the price you pay for not wanting to participate in a certain aspect of the game. When someone whispers you saying "What kind of guild are you in?" you don't say you're a raiding guild. You don't even say you're a social guild, or a leveling guild. You're 1 guy chillin by himself. You're a vanity guild. You're not excluded from raiding, you can raid all you want, you're just not going to get a bonus for it just because you fill half the slots while being as anti-social as possible. And honestly, 5 or 7, vanity and private guilds are still unlikely to get the raid-lead bonus because most of them aren't raiding together. Most of the ones I've seen through the years still have to PuG 5-mans.

I could turn around and say :

it's anti massive guild - because only the top 20 contributors per day advance the guild,
anti RP guild - because there is no RP bonuses and you have to participate in normal content {quests, kills, instances} to get guild XP
anti PVE guild and/or anti PvP guild - because people who don't do PvE/P aren't getting the same bonuses as people who do

Blizzard should just scrap the whole thing because it's all unfair and too many playstyles are excluded, amirite?

[OzPhoenix]

First, I said people, not YOU. Second, I never said that ANYONE said that this is the only way to level, I said that people are acting like the only way to level with significant progress is through a big guild. Nowhere in that sentence did I say anything about raiding. What I inferred, however, is that it's all just more whiny Chicken Little BS.

Well, there's plenty of people on both sides of this argument in the WoW forums who do nothing but embarass their side of the debate. So, let's ignore those people, and concentrate on the points we specifically are raising.

Um, yeah, that's why anyone who has a guild in WoW will be able to participate in the Guild Perks system, no matter the size of the guild. Because you gain experience in many different ways, including small group and solo play.

They'll be able to participate in most aspects of this new system. Most, not all.

The system IS open to all playstyles.

No, it's not. An aside from whether it should or shouldn't be, let's at least agree that it's not. A single member, single character guild run by a player who never entered an instance would get next to nothing from this system.

You want a reason? Because come raid night, when you're up against non-trivial content in appropriate gear, if 3 people don't show up, a real guild, who actually raids together still has a chance of being able to make some progress in that raid. Likewise, 20 people could probably work through a 25 man, 12 certainly aren't. Anyone else they pug would just be a bonus to make things easier.

Some ICC10 bosses have now been 5-boxed if I'm reading correctly some of the threads. Certainly Naxx bosses have. There's a raid making progress with 5/10.

And I think it's far more appropriate to say it's the price you pay for not wanting to participate in a certain aspect of the game. When someone whispers you saying "What kind of guild are you in?" you don't say you're a raiding guild. You don't even say you're a social guild, or a leveling guild. You're 1 guy chillin by himself. You're a vanity guild. You're not excluded from raiding, you can raid all you want, you're just not going to get a bonus for it just because you fill half the slots while being as anti-social as possible. And honestly, 5 or 7, vanity and private guilds are still unlikely to get the raid-lead bonus because most of them aren't raiding together. Most of the ones I've seen through the years still have to PuG 5-mans.

Here at least we agree, it's definitely the price I have to pay for remaining in my own guild. I just don't think the price is fair. Fortunately however, it is small.

I could turn around and say :

it's anti massive guild - because only the top 20 contributors per day advance the guild,
anti RP guild - because there is no RP bonuses and you have to participate in normal content {quests, kills, instances} to get guild XP
anti PVE guild and/or anti PvP guild - because people who don't do PvE/P aren't getting the same bonuses as people who do

Yes, it is slightly anti-super-sized guild. But then, Blizzard probably did that to prevent those guilds from running too far ahead on the guild advancement ladder.

Yes, it is anti-RP guild, given no RP achievements, but then I think Blizzard would find it difficult to design achievements accessable to RP and RP alone. Still not being an RP'er myself, I'm not advocating their interests in this thread.

As to whether it's biased for or against PvE or PvP, I don't know. I haven't looked into the deep mechanics of the system to see what's what. But, and here's an important point, I don't PvP and I accept - fully - that it means I'll advance my guild slower. But I do raid and I feel completely entitled to ask for the same recognition of that with 5/10 as a guild with 7/10.

Blizzard should just scrap the whole thing because it's all unfair and too many playstyles are excluded, amirite?

Well, I'm glad the smilie was there, the sarcasm alert... hehe. Personally, I think the system will, on the whole, be beneficial to my own playstyle - just not as beneficial as it could have (should have) been is all.