DK/Ret Cataclysm PVP Talent Discussion

[ghonosyph]

Lol you pop zealotry after 3 cs and then spam one and one the burst is good! Did you see the new dk stuff omg!

[BrothelMeister]

So yea, no more paladin heals might turn this comp into a 5 Dk team instead.

[Shodokan]

So yea, no more paladin heals might turn this comp into a 5 Dk team instead.

Are you on crack?

As it stands right now the new paladin heal heals for 10k crit untalented (approximately a holy light), with talents it is another 90% (so [(10000*1.3) * 1.6] = about 20k per toon... when healing others and about 15k when healing themself (as it is now, with no scaling of AP which it actually does)

this is OFF GCD, COSTS NO MANA.

Just because we cannot spam a heal does not make the team bad when it does so much healing. We still have healing hands as well.

Considering most of our competitive play will be in BGS this is a GOOD THING. Especially with the amount of burst we are getting. If we still had it for flash of light we'd be oom in like 3 heals.

5x dk team would still not be too great, you'd have no heals with that team anyway, because if you go blood your damage will be shit.

[Firstcow]

My only concern is they removed imp crusder strike. So does that mean Crusader Strike is now on a 4 sec CD? That goes back to having to wait 8-12 seconds for 3 stacks of holy power.

[outdrsyguy1]

just found this FYI, so yeah, building up to 3 holy power will be 9 or 12 secs.

We have been trying Crusader Strike out at both 3 seconds and 4 seconds to see what fits the best. At the moment it is 3 sec (talented) for Ret and 4 sec for Prot and Holy. It all depends on how many other things are going on that you have to juggle. Inquisition, Zealotry and Exorcism and Divine Purpose procs in addition to the basics of CS, TV and Judgement with Holy Wrath filling in any holes can add up to a lot.

While we definitely want Ret to have an actual rotation in the sense that you aren't just hitting things when they come off of cooldown, we don't want to make it more complex than the other dps specs in the game. [ Post edited by Ghostcrawler ]
Ghostcrawler
Lead Systems Designer

[Firstcow]

Well, I guess it all depends how fast a paladin can be blown up when /trained by multiple enemies. If he can die in less than 9 seconds then I guess there won't be enough healing.

This is also the weakness of the enhance shaman, Maelstrom Weapon needs a whooping 5 stacks until Healing Wave becomes instant. And an enhance shaman is much weaker than a paladin at survival.

Anyway, this whole "Let's design the talents and ask for feedback" approach is really starting to annoy me. It only pisses people off or makes them feel very excited only to bring the nerf bat and piss them off again.

I'm going to ignore all changes until cata releases and then I'll decide what to play.

[Shodokan]

Well, I guess it all depends how fast a paladin can be blown up when /trained by multiple enemies. If he can die in less than 9 seconds then I guess there won't be enough healing.

This is also the weakness of the enhance shaman, Maelstrom Weapon needs a whooping 5 stacks until Healing Wave becomes instant. And an enhance shaman is much weaker than a paladin at survival.

Anyway, this whole "Let's design the talents and ask for feedback" approach is really starting to annoy me. It only pisses people off or makes them feel very excited only to bring the nerf bat and piss them off again.

I'm going to ignore all changes until cata releases and then I'll decide what to play.

Shaman will always be viable, they had three moves in BC and were fine, they will continue to be fine.

[ghonosyph]

They changed word of glory again to no longer be a spammable free heal, you can't use it until you have at least 1 holy power, making this team roughly equivalent to a dk with death strike imo. It will be fun to play the pallys still but IMHO it will need to get far better or we're doa lol
The passive healing and mana generation from the seal of the wise now is very strong, proccing heals for around 1900 every couple seconds

[Firstcow]

They changed word of glory again to no longer be a spammable free heal, you can't use it until you have at least 1 holy power, making this team roughly equivalent to a dk with death strike imo. It will be fun to play the pallys still but IMHO it will need to get far better or we're doa lol
The passive healing and mana generation from the seal of the wise now is very strong, proccing heals for around 1900 every couple seconds

I didn't even expect word of glory to be spammable without at least one stack of holy power, just like you can't cast instant flash of light today without first proc-ing art of war, so if you think about it, crusader strike will guarantee a stack of holy power, you won't have to rely on crits to proc it. But if they keep Crusader Strike on a 3-4 sec CD then the viability of the group is questionable, but we still have to wait for retail until we can say for sure.

[Shodokan]

I didn't even expect word of glory to be spammable without at least one stack of holy power, just like you can't cast instant flash of light today without first proc-ing art of war, so if you think about it, crusader strike will guarantee a stack of holy power, you won't have to rely on crits to proc it. But if they keep Crusader Strike on a 3-4 sec CD then the viability of the group is questionable, but we still have to wait for retail until we can say for sure.

According to one of the game masters in my guild... most of the talent trees are pretty finalized unfortunately.

We are going to be relying on mana regen too much IMO. I mean the mana required for a 1.5 second heal is A LOT. But it will heal for a shitton if it crits... As it stands now non crit it's like 5k per toon... which is about 10k crit. So thats around 40k healing from a single heal if sacred shield is up. I think that this coupled with the power word glory heal will make this team still VIABLE for battle grounds PVP, but certainly NOT PVE.

So it will take us 4-12 seconds to get extra instant heals

Non talented
Non crit
1 holy power = 1294 to 1440
2 holy power = 2588 to 2880
3 holy power = 3882 to 4320

Talented to others
Non crit
1 holy power = 2440 to 3174
2 holy power = 4880 to 6348
3 holy power = 7320 to 9522

Crit baseline (not counting the crit, just what WILL crit)
1 holy power = 2733 to 3555
2 holy power = 5466 to 7110
3 holy power = 8199 to 10665

Crit would actually be
1 holy power = 4100 to 5332
2 holy power = 8199 to 10665
3 holy power = 12299 to 15996

Keep in mind blue post stated they plan on reducing the cooldown of crusader strike to 3 seconds. This means that every 10 seconds you get basically a full heal on any toon in your group, every 6 seconds 1/2, and every 3 seconds 1/4. With the damage output and such it shouldn't be hard. Especially in rated BGS if you have a resto healer with you.

This is all before sp or ap increases. If you ask me thats not bad... every 3 seconds you get about 1/5 of X toon's life. + healing hands + holy light after raping people.

PVP it will be very viable, but as i said before, PVE will no longer work because you have to choose between things. We also don't know anything about glyphs... there could be a glyph of art of war that makes holy light instant cast in the future we never know.

I'd also like to state... healing hands... this will heal us a total of 27k PER TOON, not taking extra healing into consideration or crit. This is every 30 seconds. If you combine this with the avenging wrath cooldown it does 20% more... so ~33k. This is BEFORE any spell power coefficients.

All information stated above does not take spell power or attack power for additional healing potential

PVP wise this team looks OP as hell.