It's been a while... Quad Putracide any one?

[Dorffo]

great work and thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts!

[Mercurio]

Nejcha, great work! This is really good stuff and I congratulate you on some pretty big accomplishments.

With that said, it definitely takes some good friends to do this with. I've run ICC10 25 times with random PuGs in the last 3 weeks (playing a single tank, DPS, or healer each time) and I'd say I've got a pretty good feel for what is expected and valued in PuGs, at least on my server.

Here are some thoughts on what typical PuG raiders would think about having 4 boxed shammies in a raid:

1) Being Prepared
In almost all the he PuGs I've been in people are kicked before the 1st boss if they aren't enchanted, gemmed, and flasked. So it is great that you do that, but at least on Kil'Jaeden that wouldn't set you apart.

2) Your Perceived Value
DPS are kind of treated like a dime a dozen. It is always easy to fill DPS slots, so DPSers aren't highly valued. Raiders like to split DPS into casters and melee DPS roughly evenly and you are filling four of the 5-6 DPS slots with casters. Certainly doable, but this severly limits the options of what is left to fill. Most PuGs leaders are also pretty adamant on having almost all the buffs covered. A good portion of the PuGs I've been in have waited for 15 extra minutes spamming in Dalaran to fill the last spot with a certain class and spec just because they'd have a buff that wasn't covered (even with plenty of other well-geared alternatives offering their services). In the 25 PuGs I've run recently there have never been more than two shammies for that reason.

So with you in the group, the raid absolutely has to find at least one melee DPS, probably two (for those of you who don't know, the second boss demands physical DPS for some of the mobs) - not too hard to find but it limits options, two well geared healers (about 40% of the PuGs I've been in have 3 healed, but as shammies you can pick up the slack if needed so that isn't a problem), and two tanks.

In terms of perceived value, your four shammies fill the least valued roles and make putting the rest of the group together a tough task (because everything else is dictated once you join).

3) Loot Coverage
Most raid leaders like to fill a group with classes and specs that cover most of the drops. Disenchanting level 251 items still seems pretty painful to most people. With four DPS shammies you can't really make loot coverage efficient.

4) Inability to React as Well as Four People
Even as skilled as you are, there is no way you can be as effective as four well played toons. None of us can be as boxers. For example, you did a fabulous job in your video - much better than I could have done - but you did take some unnecessary damage that four well played toons would not have taken.

I feel bad about bringing up negatives about this because what you've done is fabulous and none of these are show-stoppers. What I'm trying to do is think through the objections all PuG raid leaders would have if I offered up my services as four DPS in their raids. It would be viewed as a burden on the group for all the other players.

All of these things go out the window when you take the time to form your own group and have understanding people that you raid with. To me, with all the crazies, poor players, and elitists out there your ability to do that is the most impressive thing of all.

[Domineek]

While those are valid points when considering a PuG raid, the difference is Nechja isn't joining a raid, she is the raid leader. True, some iLvl 251 things do get sharded in our 10s, however not a whole goes into the shard pile when people have dual-specs. Also, for our 10man runs, we have a pretty static group of people who have been running together since Naxxramas and some since Black Temple.

[Nejcha]

I don't think you have the right idea about me Mr. Mercurio. I _Run_ pugs. It's pretty much all I do to raid. Save this 10; I have going of people who enjoy playing with me, and have been for a long time. Now most the people I raid with will say, sometimes a take a bit more damage, but you have to know, allot of times we also have 1-2 healers instead of the normal 2-3. So if I look low at any points it's because we use a shaman and a paladin healer on that fight. Who in all honesty praised me on that downing for taking so little damage. I think I dodged all but 1 of the Bouncing slime.

I don't think my 10 would run with out me and my clones. I play to _multiraid_ no reason else.

And dps who can do 8-9k on many fights arn't a dime a dozen on my server.

I've been raiding these shamans since BC, killed bosses in sunwell, BT, Kael and vash pre 3.0... Raidin' is what I do. I don't do it hardcore but for a casual multibox raider... I think I have my head on right.

I'm guessing you just skimmed my posts though. So no harm done.

All of these things go out the window when you take the time to form your own group and have understanding people that you raid with. To me, with all the crazies, poor players, and elitists out there your ability to do that is the most impressive thing of all.

10's I can do it... and in 25's I'm not the dead shamans on the floor still. I'm normal the alive ones beating people on the charts and and doing my job...

[Nejcha]

Also Sony Vegas decided to trash 2 of my videos so I'm a little slow on getting the rest up. Should have most the bosses up in the next few days.... and prolly blood queen and Syndragosa up some time next week(here is to hopeing was super close this week, ran out of time to play with my raid, damn RL!).

Then it's just Lich King videos, Trying to set up a live feed on those attempts.

[zenga]

For an aspirant raider like myself, mercurio's post is very insightful, while i can see some find it 'negative' in this thread, he just outlines some of the 'con's'. That being said, nejcha's accomplishement (grats btw) gave me enough confidence to pug a 10 man raid myself while i'm 5 boxing, and all went well (easy raid, but still . Explained my _situation_ at the start and asked if it was a problem for them. Zero objections and they were all curious to see how it worked. In the end my dps ended on top of the charts, and no single heal was needed on my tank from the pug healer. It would've probably taken some more weeks without this thread. So thanks for that too

[Nejcha]

Glad I did some good! What raid did you hit up?

[Mercurio]

I don't think you have the right idea about me Mr. Mercurio. I _Run_ pugs.

And dps who can do 8-9k on many fights arn't a dime a dozen on my server.

I guess based on my experiences with other people in ICC PuGs I'm just very surprised that random people are willing to think outside the box and participate with you as a boxer. As my post outlined, most people I'm with are adamant about min/maxing.

But your 2nd line quoted above clears a lot up for me. Besides AOE trash pulls, no one in any of the raids I've been in puts out that much DPS. I have six DPS toons that I raid on and they put out between 4500 and 6000 DPS on bosses with 5.3K - 5.4K gear score. Actually, it is my two ele shammies that are at 4500-5000, the others are higher. I guess if your toons have been to Saragosa they must have very good gear, but still, that's a major feat. If you can say, "I have four DPS that will each put out over 8K DPS on the first boss or I'll kick three of them" you go from a dime a dozen to a diamond in the rough.

That also explains a lot about your video and the first question I posted about it in your other thread (about your DPS).

Oh, and you don't have to call me "Mr. Mercurio". I definitely don't deserve that much respect.

Now is when I should start asking you about rotations, talent specs, and gear selection because mine on my shammies is obviously very inferior to yours.

Here are their armory pages if you care to look at them, but if you'd rather spend your time raiding I totally understand.

http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...aeden&cn=Tigro
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...den&cn=Bengali

Thanks again for the posts - these are great.

[zenga]

Glad I did some good! What raid did you hit up?

Like i said, easy raid The weekly quest in nax (tried it solo first, but ran out of mana when i got patchwerk down to 25%, need to redo some macro'ing & keybinds for better mana management). My general attitude in any game is: i don't want to screw up for others (possibly that might have more to do with my ego/proud than really caring about the others actually). It's also one of the reasons why i never pug hc's: i don't want to be carried, i want to complete them first myself. Even if that means i'm going a bit slower. Once i'm done with a hc, i don't mind to help others/pug however.

I think for many new boxers tackling this first step into something new is the most important. Hence why this first mini nax raid opened my eyes. The main thing i'll have to learn is that i don't have to take care of/be responsible for the whole raid group, while i have to do that in hc's. There is another healer and tank who can keep an eye out. So i basically have to learn how to behave my group in a bigger group. Fellow puggers told me afterwards that for certain raids they saw a big advantage to have boxer in their group that performs well. Mainly because trash dies faster due to focussed fire (having 6 dps critting on the last 40k of a mob is kind of a waste) cause the raid can split up (which surprised me quite honestly that pug's seems to have such little coordination for that, i try to never waste any spells on a mob where i see my dot's will finish it off).

So all in all a great first step on my way up, inspired by your vid

[Acerak]

I've been away from these forums for some time. But I thought I'd share some... eerr one of my adventures with you all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2DkaVslBSnI

I'm still out here multiboxing my raids.

This is four boxing Putracide... I have a ton more videos even all the way back from every damn heroic, my first nax 10(so so soooo long ago), quad boxing 4tower FL, 3 drake sarth 25... and quite a few of me and my 5 box warlock friend doing toc25 O.o I'm just a lazy video editor. I'm hoping to put a bunch more together of my 10s and 25's all the gigs of scrap video I have into a longer more in depth video of raiding all of wotlk with 4 shamans (no less). But for now I'm putting together fights from icc10&25.

Enjoy!

Wanted to commend you...we met once on Feathermoon, I was running fourbox pallies through Ramps at the time (the "Grendrick's"). I've switched my team up and it's now 1ProtPally, 2 Rets, 1 Unholy DK and a Resto Shaman...currently lvl 74.

I don't know I'd ever be up for raiding as a boxer, but it's truly impressive you've pulled this off. Gratz!