Shodokan's Multibox Blog: Info, Stream and more.

[Sajuuk]

Yes there is... Especially in outland greens on my server. It's making me want to start abusing the tailoring trick from BC.

That works fine until you flood the market and the person running that portion of the AH decides to just undercut you.

[thinus]

On the subject of making gold, what is the best use of Frostweave Cloth? I have so much of the stuff I am having to buy extra bank tabs for it.

[Shodokan]

That works fine until you flood the market and the person running that portion of the AH decides to just undercut you.

This is why you control the market instead of flooding it. You speak like i'm some retarded kid who just got off the short bus. On my server there really isn't anyone selling these materials in the long term. What do i care if some idiot undercuts me a few times? I can always undercut them back as most of those players will not check their auctions every few hours.

On the subject of making gold, what is the best use of Frostweave Cloth? I have so much of the stuff I am having to buy extra bank tabs for it.

That is server dependent. The best use on my server is frost weave bags.

Cost: 6 bolts of imbued netherweave ( 10 cloth + 2 dust per bolt) and a thread

On my server dust is 2g each, so you'd need 12 (24g for all), then the cloth is ~ 4g per stack (12g total) and bags sell for 50-55g

This means that for a 36g investment you get back 50-55g. That is a 14 to 19g profit per bag. They can take a bit to sell though. But if you get the mats yourself say doing heroics you are looking at... ~ 3 greens worth of infinite dust. So for every 3 stacks of frostweave + 3ish greens worth of disenchanted materials you get about 50g. It's not bad at all.

[Knytestorme]

But if you get the mats yourself say doing heroics you are looking at... ~ 3 greens worth of infinite dust. So for every 3 stacks of frostweave + 3ish greens worth of disenchanted materials you get about 50g. It's not bad at all.

Falicy here, you still need to take into account how much you are losing by not selling the items or mats on the AH. This obviously then means that it makes no difference if you get the cloth or dust yourself and use it for making the bags or sell it on the AH and then use the funds to buy them back off the AH to make the bags.

This also doesn't take into account that it's more expensive for you to use mats gotten while grinding if the item sells to a vendor for more than the mats de'd from it can be brought from the AH. For example, dust is 2g per dust, item that sells for 10g to vendor will de into 4 dust means that you will cost yourself 2g min by de'ing it yourself and using the mats rather than selling it to vendor and buying dusts from AH.

[Shodokan]

Falicy here, you still need to take into account how much you are losing by not selling the items or mats on the AH. This obviously then means that it makes no difference if you get the cloth or dust yourself and use it for making the bags or sell it on the AH and then use the funds to buy them back off the AH to make the bags.

This also doesn't take into account that it's more expensive for you to use mats gotten while grinding if the item sells to a vendor for more than the mats de'd from it can be brought from the AH. For example, dust is 2g per dust, item that sells for 10g to vendor will de into 4 dust means that you will cost yourself 2g min by de'ing it yourself and using the mats rather than selling it to vendor and buying dusts from AH.

Stating common sense is amazing. That goes for any green being DE'd. You take the risk of getting less than the worth of the item sold to vendor. Regardless of if you get the mats yourself or buy them it is still 14-19g better to make bags than not. The 55g is pure profit if you get all the mats yourself regardless of if it would sell for less if you used the items in other ways. Opposed to having only the gold to make the bags. You'd be making the 36ish gold either way if the items are yours (greens, cloth etc) So calling it a falicy is just silly and you're calling me out on something so small that it seems counterproductive.

Regardless your point is "correct". From my personal experience most things that DE from instances are worth around 4g each (i mostly see rings and cloth drop). So you are looking to DE ~3 items (assuming item level 75+ which now de to 3-5 dust[could be more, was 2-5 before but i know it was changed] or 1-2 GCE) that is ~12g which is less than buying the dust on most servers. So the point may be valid but moot at best. You obviously will not DE a green that will sell for 8g unless you have a 75% chance to get at least ONE greater cosmic. Like stated before, i would like to assume people have common sense.

[Ualaa]

It is all opportunity costs.

You can vendor the drops, for "x" gold.
You can DE the drops, for "y" gold (which varies, but will average something long-term).

One of the two options is a gain over the option, by "z" amount.
Naturally, you'll go with the better option, all things being equal.

Whether you vendor the item, and purchase Infinite Dust.
Or DE it, and acquire the Infinite Dust that way.
The method of getting the dust doesn't matter, except that you use the more profitable approach.

Combine so much dust, with so much cloth.
Which averages 36 gold in costs.
And end up with something which averages 55g in value.
And you are up the difference.

[Shodokan]

It is all opportunity costs.

You can vendor the drops, for "x" gold.
You can DE the drops, for "y" gold (which varies, but will average something long-term).

One of the two options is a gain over the option, by "z" amount.
Naturally, you'll go with the better option, all things being equal.

Whether you vendor the item, and purchase Infinite Dust.
Or DE it, and acquire the Infinite Dust that way.
The method of getting the dust doesn't matter, except that you use the more profitable approach.

Combine so much dust, with so much cloth.
Which averages 36 gold in costs.
And end up with something which averages 55g in value.
And you are up the difference.

Yes. I guess many people don't see how opportunity costs go along with WoW. That's OK though. The whole idea of how the materials are obtained doesn't REALLY matter, but in a way it does. Like you said you are making more money by maximizing your profitability for the items you have obtained, especially if the items you are DEing are worth less than the dust you will be receiving(like item level 75+ rings) which if you vendored it and got less gold you'd be losing out on even more money.

So lets say the items you are DEing are all rings which sell for under 4 gold. They DE for an average of ~ 4 dust per because of the changes to enchanting mats from disenchant. So that could double the value per item you DE, that's if they don't DE for a GCE as GCE would more than double the item's worth to the player. So lets say after doing a bunch of heroics you have 9 stacks of frostweave cloth, 10 greens to DE that would be worth 4g when sold to vendor and are level 75+. For this we will take into account that the items are worth approximately 3.5 dust per, we won't discuss GCE as if they happen then you are making much more profit than the item DE'd anyway.

Option 1: Vendoring
9 stacks of frostweave = 22.5g
10 greens worth 4 g = 40g
Total: 62.5g

Option 2: Making Bags
9 stacks of frostweave = 36 x bolts of frostweave so you can make 3 bags worth of imbued
10 greens = ~ 40 infinite dust
Thread = -6 gold per bag

Each bag takes 12 dust + 12 bolts so you can make 3 bags worth, have 4 infinite dust left over.
Each bag sells for lets say 48 gold (varying depending on server obviously)
48 x 3 = 144 gold
- 18 = 126 gold

126/62.5 = ~ 2 times better to use enchanting + tailoring over vendoring.

[Knytestorme]

And the problem you have here still is that you are not listing all the options.

Option 3 would be Ah-ing the cloth and de'ing the greens to sell the mats you get. In this case how many CE's you get is important to the calculations.

Option 4 would be de'ing the greens, using the dust and cloth to make imbued bolts to then AH, again the number of CE's you get from the DE is important to the calculations.

It's easy to say that people should have common sense, however the beginners forum shows that's not the case, so if you're trying to provide an informative thread you should not assume the reader knows anything and make sure to explain the reasons for every decision.

Greedy Goblin and other sites show that plenty of people don't understand the concept of opportunity cost or arbitrage so just skimming over those concepts with a glib throw-away line such as "it's even cheaper if I farm the mats myself" provides no service to people reading the thread for the most part so if you want to use such lines or thoughts you really should make sure to do things such as you have done in the past post and show calculations for why a choice provides a better option and what variables need to be considered that could change that decision.

As an example:

Assumption: We have 10 level 75 armour items that have a 75% chance to provide 5 ID's, 20% chance to provide 1.5 GCE and 5% chance to provide DS

Current market value is 2g per ID, 10g per GCE, 20g per DS

Therefore we will average 3.75 ID, 0.3 GCE, 0.05 DS per green item. If it vendors for more than (3.75*2 + 0.3*10 + 0.05*20)g we should vendor it otherwise we should de it leading to an income of, on average, at least 11.5g per item.

This then gives us the base value for option 1 of selling our items and then from there you can go into the various options regarding using the items to make tradegoods to potenitally sell for more value. Using your previous example with calculations modified to match mine above.

Option 1: Vendoring
9 stacks of frostweave = 22.5g
10 greens worth 11.5 g each = 115g
Total: 137.5g

Option 2: Making Bags
9 stacks of frostweave = 36 x bolts of frostweave so you can make 3 bags worth of imbued
10 greens = ~ 40 infinite dust
Thread = -6 gold per bag

Each bag takes 12 dust + 12 bolts so you can make 3 bags worth, have 4 infinite dust left over.
Each bag sells for lets say 48 gold (varying depending on server obviously)
48 x 3 = 144 gold
- 18 = 126 gold

126/137.5.5 = better to de + vendor items than make bags

Another thing missing from your calculations, though less important now that the DE option is available in a group, is that the de items could be used to make various enchants to sell on the AH rather than used to imbue cloth.

What you are trying to do is tricky to do right but it should be done right or not at all.

As an aside to this, I have a degree in commerce with my majors in finance and risk management (eg hedging, arbitrage, options, etc) so I am talking from a background of knowledge

[thinus]

Someone draw up a spreadsheet I can just plug my server values into that will tell me what to do with my cloth lol.
This discussion is why I will always be poor.

[Knytestorme]

Someone draw up a spreadsheet I can just plug my server values into that will tell me what to do with my cloth lol.
This discussion is why I will always be poor.

Funny you should say that. I'm thinking of how best to write an addon that uses the server vars from auctioneer combined with tradeskills you have to tell you where arbitrage opportunity exists, essentially what you are asking about but in game