4x Enhancement arena?

[Ellay]

Hmm, not trying to doubt the validity here but how was your gear on the 4x enhancement. Really well geared enhancement Shamans on triple melee cleave teams are usually the highest amount of damage done total and they don't even aoe.
I think they are viable but there is really no answer to the roots problem void and I came up with

[asonimie]

Gear? PTR. Full relentless premades with double 2.6 1800rating axes. WFs hitting with 7500AP.

Fully top geared.

And @naysayser: No I did not spam purge hots unless there was nothing else to cast because in a real arena game with 2 healers someone else will always be healing your target. No the druid didn't kite me around, the druid was my roommate and we did a "sitting duck" target test basically, just sat there and let me beat on him target dummy style, basically best case scenario.

I will play with them some more but I was being realistic about the situation with my prediction because I know how the CC, roots, and especially HEALING are at top end arena... their damage just doesn't feel right at all. It felt like playing with 2 elementals. Also, I'm not going to do damage tests on a mage or some piece of kleenex class - eventually you will need to kill a plate.... and the shaman damage suffered badly here (tree form=plate dps armor). Also roots suck, but they aren't a game ender with 2-3 ways to break roots.

The reason I'm being negative here is because A) Its true and B) Lots of people are thinking about dumping valuable points on enhancement gear right now and I don't want anyone making an irreversible mistake.

Edit: If anyone wants to do further testing with enhancement, I already have the toons, gearing, and macros ready to go. I can't do infinite testing because we are out of premade copies, but please contact me and make a healer / whatever class, and I'll come beat on you while we discuss things over vent. I am happy to help in any way.

[Mokoi]

Gear? PTR. Full relentless premades with double 2.6 1800rating axes. WFs hitting with 7500AP.

Fully top geared.

And @naysayser: No I did not spam purge hots unless there was nothing else to cast because in a real arena game with 2 healers someone else will always be healing your target. No the druid didn't kite me around, the druid was my roommate and we did a "sitting duck" target test basically, just sat there and let me beat on him target dummy style, basically best case scenario.

I will play with them some more but I was being realistic about the situation with my prediction because I know how the CC, roots, and especially HEALING are at top end arena... their damage just doesn't feel right at all. It felt like playing with 2 elementals. Also, I'm not going to do damage tests on a mage or some piece of kleenex class - eventually you will need to kill a plate.... and the shaman damage suffered badly here (tree form=plate dps armor). Also roots suck, but they aren't a game ender with 2-3 ways to break roots.

The reason I'm being negative here is because A) Its true and B) Lots of people are thinking about dumping valuable points on enhancement gear right now and I don't want anyone making an irreversible mistake.

Edit: If anyone wants to do further testing with enhancement, I already have the toons, gearing, and macros ready to go. I can't do infinite testing because we are out of premade copies, but please contact me and make a healer / whatever class, and I'll come beat on you while we discuss things over vent. I am happy to help in any way.

were you interrupting his casted heals? If you are shocking his regrowths, and purging his rejuvs, i don't see how he could live more than 4 seconds oO sure, he has a couple good cooldowns, but.. it seems like something is missing.

was he playing a good druid, and hotting and then bearforming? because im sure then you would have a tough time doing anything to him, full relentless druid armor in bearform would be tough to crack =/

[asonimie]

You guys are missing the point. I didn't want to test what it was like to fight an active kiting druid. He was simulating an average high armor target.... basically playing a training dummy with resilience that can heal itself. It could have been a dps warrior, ret pally, whatever. The point is against non cloth/leather targets, the dmg was low.

Purging and shocking? In a real arena match I would have focus assigned shocks and blah blah blah yes I am crazy good with macros and control... thats not the point. I let him heal, because it roughly simulates the amount of healing he would receive in a 5v5 match with the 2nd healer spamming him. Argue that if desired, but its the reality against a good 5v5 team. You won't successfully micromanage shocking every heal... not if you want to dps.

The point is, these guys are taking longer to dps someone down than other 4 dps comps I've been testing. The fact they are rootable, nonstealth, and have no MS means they have little to offer other than dps and hex... which is pretty much useless in 5v5 anyway. I have also come to realize the basic idea of enhancement shaman 4box arena is a bit flawed anyway, why? Enhancement shamans fit the same role as elemental shamans, ie. 4dps, no MS, poor cc etc. Enhancement doesn't bring any real tricks to the table that elemental doesn't already provide. So whats my point? High end arena healers vs. potential burst. The fellow top rated ele boxers and I will agree, that if we have trouble dropping a target with an instant 65-70k spell damage burst(not mitigated by armor) because enemy healers are so reactive and quick.... what makes us think we could drop a target from melee range with a max burst/second of maybe ~30k(resilience AND armor mitigated) ?? Exactly.

Also, I've been playing them in WSG to test open pvp... and they just get destroyed compared to my rogues or probably even pallies.... altho I have not been impressed with ret pallies either.

fyi, since 4 days ago my rogues on live are lvl 50 no RAF. This gives you an idea where I think the power is at.

[remanz]

6 seconds CD interrupt, and constant purging, those are the things that make enhancement kill healers. Without them, I don't think enhance can kill healers. So asonimie's testing is pretty accruate. In 5 v 5 arena, no way you interrupt the healer's heal if you are not on that healer. You need the burst or healing debuff to kill. I am sure he can kill the single tree druid quicker, if he rotate his interrupt and purge. But that's not realistic in an arena 5 v 5 situation.

Ret paladins has no interrupt, no healing debuff. So obviously it has higher burst. Especially when you open those wings after bubble, not to mention you have stun to keep your target there. Also I think the strength of paladins is the defense. The instant heal + hots x 4 really = a holy paladin currently (not sure after the nerf). So in 5 v 5, you basically have 5 dps and 1 holy paladin healing.

About rogues, I see it working with all CDs intact. What happen after you blow your CDs and kill 1 target. Plus as far as burst go, it seems only combat spec can deal high burst. But the survival is kinda low for them.

[asonimie]

@rogues: just the opposite. I tried both specs with the following results.

Mut/Prep (assassination/sub): amazing dps, non-cooldown based. Mutilate alone will destroy any single target in 1-3 seconds (if not a tank w/ tank gear of course). Massive defensive cooldowns, and buffs to the important core abilities I need for 5v5. Some of my fastest kills were no cooldowns used, mut spam.

Combat/KS: Way more cooldown based, made me feel like a 3 minute mage back in the day. While killing spree is probably the funniest thing I have ever seen in wow (40 weapon hits in 2.5 seconds).... once the KS is done I feel rather naked with only SinisterStrike spam.

Seeing is believing, they sounded mediocre to me, but after killing priests stunned and dead in 2 seconds... I'm a believer. Biggest threat to a rogue? Melee cleave. 15-20second evasion while you kill all the casters? Amazing.

Oh and icing on the cake.. remember how much we shamans hate destro locks? Ya.. I kill them in about 2 seconds now.

[Mosg2]

But... But... They're defenses are all cooldowns! It just sounds, on paper, like it could never work. Can you Fraps some stuff up for us hard-to-be-convinced types?

[asonimie]

Sure will! Already frapsd 4-5 engagements. I'll do some more right now.


Preparation = 2 sets of cooldowns, so its pretty hax.

[Mosg2]

Hmmm. BG type stuff or arena type stuff?

It just seems like any team is still going to be able to 4v5 you down after you gib one of their healers or DPS. Say it's a given that you murder your initial target. Then what? Pop Vanish and try it again? Sprint/Evasion and go after the number two target? it just seems like you'd be too easily CC'd after the initial target goes down. Then again, maybe I'm wrong and the concept is ridiculously powerful.

I guess having someone be MS'd, 70% snared, stunned, and casting slowed all at the same time would be pretty f'ing hot... Hmmmm. The more I think about it the more I like it. I guess if you could gib a DPS first and then immediately gib another DPS even while they're getting healed it'd just be a matter of mopping up at that point.

[asonimie]

Now you're starting to see the light!

And gib me with what? I'm immune to melee for 15 seconds and I can rape any dangerous spellcaster in 2 seconds. Not exaggerating... 2 seconds of fully MS'd, mind poisoned, stunned death.

I can't promise anything, but I'm usually pretty accurate with me theory crafting... and the average match will probably go something like this:

4x Sap <trinketed>
Immediate 4-way Blind for full duration
Insta rape the shaman, warlock, non-frost mage, or druid.
FanOfKnives which puts MS, Snare, and Mind numbing on every target in 10 yards thats right... 3 poisons on everyone(or just leave them blinded - just as fun)
Vanish and walk away... sapping them over and over to keep from rezzing... or just start on target 2 right away... why not... they'll be dead in 3 seconds unless they're wearing pve prot gear.
++Evasion
Kill remaining spellcasters / healers while I lol@melee

Any problems in the above sequence... just hit Prep - and start the whole chain of cooldowns over again.

So far... my healer hasn't had to do much has he?

By the way... I'm even more excited about the damage after frapsing some more the last 60 minutes. I've killed DKs, arms wars, holy pallies all with 30k base health in 2-3 globals.... all before coming out of the initial stun.... with nothing but mutilate spam. No cooldowns.