is there a reason why loads of people are gimping themselves by using focustarget instead of targettarget?

[Simulacra]

I think the title says it all

I've noticed a general shift away from targettarget in the last year - why is that? Is it because all the example macros use focustarget or is there some other reason. Has everyone forgotten targettarget? Why would people use focustarget when targettarget is plainly superior?

[Nitro]

Please support your post with reasons that you find targettarget superior so that we can have a real discussion. Pros and Cons, I would love to hear the specific points because at times i find that focustarget is unreliable on fast target switching.

[ElectronDF]

Cons of Target-target.
You have to target something. It takes time to target something and then change targets constantly. If you want to heal, you are left with no target to attack until you target again. Notice all the targeting you do?
If focus has no target, focus-target fails and nothing happens. If you target something and it has no target, you end up with still your target which is probably not what you want to use.
Just the use of the word target usually teaches people to use /target instead of [target= ]. Which takes tiny bits of room in macros. It doesn't let you check multiple conditions [target=focus-target, help][target=focus].
If you don't change targets, you can actually cast on a different mob and still have a target......./cast [target=focus-target] DPSSpell........./cast CCSpell, the DPS spell goes as an assist but your target never changed, so you still have the mob you want to CC targeted.
There are probably a couple more, but that should start things off.

[Simulacra]

[quote='Nitro',index.php?page=Thread&postID=205470# post205470]Please support your post with reasons that you find targettarget superior so that we can have a real discussion. Pros and Cons, I would love to hear the specific points because at times i find that focustarget is unreliable on fast target switching.[/quote]I'll see what I can dig up from the archives.

edit: found it : [url='http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=8052']The No Focus Manifesto v0.1[/url] <-- the no focus manifesto

this was from way back in June 08 - the general consensus back then was that targettarget was quicker than focustarget when switching targets. I remember switching from focus to the target method and noticed that my slaves switched much more quickly to the new target and never again experienced focus lag. After this the targettarget approach took prominence but was eventually swamped with new boxers using focustarget due to focustarget being the example of choice in the example macros.

[Simulacra]

[quote='ElectronDF',index.php?page=Thread&postID=20 5473#post205473]Cons of Target-target.
You have to target something. It takes time to target something and then change targets constantly. If you want to heal, you are left with no target to attack until you target again. Notice all the targeting you do?
If focus has no target, focus-target fails and nothing happens. If you target something and it has no target, you end up with still your target which is probably not what you want to use.
Just the use of the word target usually teaches people to use /target instead of [target= ]. Which takes tiny bits of room in macros. It doesn't let you check multiple conditions [target=focus-target, help][target=focus].
If you don't change targets, you can actually cast on a different mob and still have a target......./cast [target=focus-target] DPSSpell........./cast CCSpell, the DPS spell goes as an assist but your target never changed, so you still have the mob you want to CC targeted.
There are probably a couple more, but that should start things off.[/quote]read the manifesto for more info - [url='http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&threadID=8052&pageNo=1']The No Focus Manifesto v0.1[/url]
in fact I'm going to bump it

[olipcs]

Maybe I don't get it, or didn't see the exact point in the 'No fucs-manifesto-thread' why it should be faster (so, feel free to point me there ;) ), but...

...honestly I simply don't know if a 'target-target' or 'focus-target' is realy quicker, when changing targets (and by targets I mean the target of your 'main', so the target you want to dps), because I would guess, since both 'focus' and 'target' are known to the client, that what WoW would do for a :

/cast [target=focus-target] ...

is to evaluate on the client the ID (or name, or whatever) of the thing stored in 'focus' and send something like '/cast [target=ID-target] ...' to the server and this would be the same for '/cast [target=target-target] ..' , so I honestly don't see why 'target-target' should be faster for casting the dps-spell ...

..what might be the case is, that setting the 'target' might be quicker than setting the focus, but in both setups this would only happen when the leader has to change (so in your suggested setup, when he dies), and this shouldn't be every second...

What I would see as a 'con' against the 'target-target' option is, that when you PVP you might have some problems:

1. You point your enemy directly to your main-toon (because all your slaves have him as their target)
2. You have a fixed order of 'mains' (if you use the exact macros from the 'no focus...')
3. You would have problems navigating your group when they are split and to far away for follow (happens often in AV with the graveyards) (this is also true for most fous-setups)
4. You can't use '/castsequences' with 'reset=target' in your macros (because your target will allways be the 'main')

Honestly, some of this limitations are also true for using 'focus' (..and thats why I use a customized FTL for this...).

[Ughmahedhurtz]

I think the title says it all

I've noticed a general shift away from targettarget in the last year - why is that? Is it because all the example macros use focustarget or is there some other reason. Has everyone forgotten targettarget? Why would people use focustarget when targettarget is plainly superior?

Physical damage classes. Cannot autoattack/autoshot something that isn't your current target. Consider how many hunters, paladins, DKs, rogues and feral druids (WOO!) are currently being boxed and I think you'll have your answer.

[Moorea]

I use assist focus and then regular spells; attacks on the actual toon's target and it's fine so far

[Otlecs]

It's good to remind people that there are a few options on how to set things up, but I don't think any of them actually gimps you. They all work and it comes down to what you're used to and what your personal playstyle is like.

I've been using a modified version of the no-focus-manifesto before it even had a name (I came up with it myself), and am very, very happy with it. I wouldn't swap to a focus-based system if you paid me to, but I'm sure there are people who feel the exact opposite

I can see definite advantages over the focus method for my particular playstyle, which involves crowd control in some of my teams (for which I use focus) and sometimes distributing attacks across multiple targets when unloading everything on a single target would just be pointless over-kill.

A non-focus-based system also means I don't need macros for every single spell. It means I can see without doubt who has what target, even if I've deliberately given them different targets.

It means I can use reset=target conditionals in the macros I do use, to make sure I open up with the right thing even if the previous sequence didn't complete.

And with my method of follow and assist, control automatically and seemlessly transfers without me typing a single thing - they automatically start taking follow / assist / focus instructions from the "next" master when the current master is dead or far out of range.

I have no problem believing that the focus-target system makes target swapping quicker, but I've had no problem dealing with targeting lag since about the first week I started boxing (which was a shade over two years ago).

To each their own though :thumbsup:

[Simulacra]

I think the title says it all

I've noticed a general shift away from targettarget in the last year - why is that? Is it because all the example macros use focustarget or is there some other reason. Has everyone forgotten targettarget? Why would people use focustarget when targettarget is plainly superior?

Physical damage classes. Cannot autoattack/autoshot something that isn't your current target. Consider how many hunters, paladins, DKs, rogues and feral druids (WOO!) are currently being boxed and I think you'll have your answer.

ah I should explain myself better - for caster types it's better - however when I need to melee I just use a melee specific macro - there's no reason not to mix it up. targettarget for caster operations and assist for melee. they're not mutually exclusive. eg:

/follow target
/assist [target=target, exists]
/startattack

right back atcha

otlec: I agree totally, different options are good. What I'm I'm trying to do is raise awareness of the targettarget approach as it appears to have been forgotten which I think is a shame. I still think though that focustarget is gimped lol.

morea: try targettarget and see the difference
olipcs: targettarget is quicker when your main is changing targets - an example here is utgarde keep and the two bosses after prince where you need to down them at the same time - I switch between the two on a regular basis with no misfires. Your pvp points are well made, I personally do not use the failover but use pip swap to manage the team where the pip swap key sets the new main as the target which again is quicker than focus.