Another WoW'er interested in coming to EVE

[asonimie]

I tried EVE 4 years ago for about 2 days, didn't feel like learning the more complicated nature of the game, and defaulted to WOW due to its new player appeal. So ya I'm bored and frustrated as well with WOW, and have been hearing whispers of EVE talk for a while now. I like what I hear, but just want some opinion from people that have converted from WOW, or anyone for that matter.

PVP
I enjoy pvp. I of course enjoyed arenas and the gank appeal of boxing in open pvp in WOW. I have read what you guys have posted about the dangers and allure of EVE pvp, and I like the sound of it. I'm sick of the "cater to crybaby noobs / everybody wins" attitude of WOW pvp.

For those who enjoy pvp, how as EVE held up compared to WOW or any similar mmo? I have dreams of running a Gank squad like anyone else. Are there ways to do this anywhere... and make any sort of profit? I also love the idea of losing real materials if you fail, instead of just a repair bill.

RL Cash Market
The process of buying / selling game time for ingame credits has been touched on. How easy is this for boxers? Any benefit for multiple accounts? Is it realistic to think I could set up a mining/ "playing the ah" operation down the road and be able to fund my subscription fees? Is there any way to take credits back out of the game for RL cash? or is it a 1way street? I know Souca mentioned a combination of training skills on dormant accounts, and something about making enough to cover subscription costs... is this what you can do?

Lasting Appeal
What do you guys do once you have these maxed out, "best in slot" mining Rigs. Just earn mad Isk? Sell for more ships/weapons? Start an army? What is the final Goal I can expect to work towards(and does it tie in to my PVP goals)?
Are you guys running a boxer "Guild" or Corp at all? or is everyone just spread out playing alone.

What is the expected playtime investment before I can effectively "achieve" any of this. Do i have to grind for 10 months before I am a noticable/established player?

I love the idea of playing less RL hours, training while offline, running a gank fleet around the universe, and not paying RL cash for gametime. As much info about those issues or anything else you think I would enjoy and would sway me to come play with you guys is GREATLY appreciated. Any additional comments for a newb like me would be greatly appreciated as well.


Thanks!
Asonimie

[stoat]

MOST IMPORTANT PART: You must find yourself a player corporation that you enjoy, without that eve is simply not worth playing (like most MMOs).

Another hint: as mentioned in some other posts the cheapest way to get started is to get someone to refer you. This will give you a 21 day trial. Then convince them to give you ~300m isk to buy a PLEX card (30d ingame GTC type deal) on the market (30 days game time). This really won't be a loss for them, since when you activate the PLEX they will get 30 days free with the refer a buddy (may have to petition a GM if it doesn't get credited, sometimes it bugs). Now you have a fully functional account with 51 days to play and no one has spent a dime.

Background: I've played eve on and off since release, my top char has nearly 100m sp with several alts above 80. I've participated in most aspects of the game: alliance warfare, empire wars, mission running, mining, station spinning (where most of my time was spent).

PVP: while it is possible to run a multiboxed gank squad the logistics of it are somewhat frustrating. All targeting is done with the mouse on each client - no real way to assist (unless you solely use drones, then you are stuck static camping). With mouse broadcasting and fielding similar ships with similar sensor strengths you might be able to get around this - however any target disruption done by the enemy will greatly hurt you here. In practice with large ships (and large buffers so you have time to react) you can field 3, possibly 4 accounts before your ability to pilot becomes greatly diminished. Soloing has become less and less viable over the years - it is just too easy for most people to escape from a solo pvper - recently CCP have undone some of the changes that make it easier to get away, solo is still pretty frustrating though.


When you are first starting out in EVE that is really the best and most fun time to pvp. Your skills will be lacking compared to nearly everyone else you are fighting but setups will be dirt cheap, clones dirt cheap and very little consequence to dying other than a bruised ego. As of late there has been a resurgence of 'bad' players fielding expensive setups and losing them in humorous ways - if you could find one of these people and loot them it would go a long way toward sustaining your pvp adventures (and possibly paying for your accounts depending on how dumb they are) for months to come.

RL cash market: you can 'buy' ISK legally by buying GTCs and selling them to players through CCP sanctioned means. To act strictly within the EULA this would be a one way trip only, as CCP no longer allows 'reselling' of GTC codes. 'Ghost training' on inactive accounts was grossly nerfed a few months ago, now your training will lapse 3 days after your account expires. If you have the patience and some seed money playing the market is a very viable way to make ISK - I never had the patience for it though. A month of game time costs around 300m ISK. Mining with a nicely trained character (with current prices) you can make 10m/hr in high security space. Mission running at a higher level can pull between 10(common values 10-30) to 50-60m/hr. If I get a good run of missions dual accounting I can pull 100m/hr - probably somewhat misleading though as I'll cherry pick only the high paying missions and logoff if I don't have any luck getting them.

Lasting Appeal: As a bitter jaded vet I still keep my accounts going for some reason, although I don't log in very much anymore. I find myself less and less willing to pvp on my high sp 'epeen' alts as to not lose training time (by jumping out of +5 implants) - If I do pvp it's generally on a 45m alt these days.
The great appeal of eve is that you don't need to play to advance your character (other than generating currency to buy ships with - many corps will pay for ship hulls though, especially at a lower level).

I'm sure some people will disagree with my take on EVE, but let me say again. BITTER JADED VET, I know lots of people who love eve (although not too many that played from 03-05 or so) and lots of people who love to hate it. This is just my take on it. If you want any more info from me feel free to ask.

edit: bitter vet footnote, my oldest char turned 6 years old today.

[Redbeard]

PVP - Not my thing, no real experience here.

RL Market - As Stoat said, you can pay money in but cant (legally) get money back out. If you become successful through some means you could theoretically pay for your account(s). This is not likely if youre primary focus is going to be pvp.

Lasting Appeal - Ive played on and off since 06. The game has lasting appeal in that the end game is more open. The pvp ethic resounds through all aspects (whether youre competing over roids with other miners, competing over sales on the market, stealing rigs from peoples missions, or youre active in PVP). One thing I find neat about the game is that there isnt a silly mechanic like "bind on pickup" like in WoW. If I want to hide in a belt and mine for 5 years and then all of the sudden I want to buy a tricked out battleship with my hard earned money, I can do it (and fly it, assuming I have the appropriate skills). This applies to ships, and items too. Most items have "officer" and "pirate" versions which are better in some way. Some of these have exorbitant prices. This is like me going into the AH and buying T8 set pieces in WoW, etc. I find that appealing.

One word on the whole real time training. If youre the type of person who likes to blitz a game its a downer because you cant really move faster than other people (beyond messing with your attributes)... If youre the type of person who likes to take things easy, or just isnt on all the time, its an awesome system because youre guys are always ticking away. Its kind of addictive actually. Stupid game.

Anyways.

Just some thoughts.

I tried EVE 4 years ago for about 2 days, didn't feel like learning the more complicated nature of the game, and defaulted to WOW due to its new player appeal. So ya I'm bored and frustrated as well with WOW, and have been hearing whispers of EVE talk for a while now. I like what I hear, but just want some opinion from people that have converted from WOW, or anyone for that matter.

PVP
I enjoy pvp. I of course enjoyed arenas and the gank appeal of boxing in open pvp in WOW. I have read what you guys have posted about the dangers and allure of EVE pvp, and I like the sound of it. I'm sick of the "cater to crybaby noobs / everybody wins" attitude of WOW pvp.

For those who enjoy pvp, how as EVE held up compared to WOW or any similar mmo? I have dreams of running a Gank squad like anyone else. Are there ways to do this anywhere... and make any sort of profit? I also love the idea of losing real materials if you fail, instead of just a repair bill.

RL Cash Market
The process of buying / selling game time for ingame credits has been touched on. How easy is this for boxers? Any benefit for multiple accounts? Is it realistic to think I could set up a mining/ "playing the ah" operation down the road and be able to fund my subscription fees? Is there any way to take credits back out of the game for RL cash? or is it a 1way street? I know Souca mentioned a combination of training skills on dormant accounts, and something about making enough to cover subscription costs... is this what you can do?

Lasting Appeal
What do you guys do once you have these maxed out, "best in slot" mining Rigs. Just earn mad Isk? Sell for more ships/weapons? Start an army? What is the final Goal I can expect to work towards(and does it tie in to my PVP goals)?
Are you guys running a boxer "Guild" or Corp at all? or is everyone just spread out playing alone.

What is the expected playtime investment before I can effectively "achieve" any of this. Do i have to grind for 10 months before I am a noticable/established player?

I love the idea of playing less RL hours, training while offline, running a gank fleet around the universe, and not paying RL cash for gametime. As much info about those issues or anything else you think I would enjoy and would sway me to come play with you guys is GREATLY appreciated. Any additional comments for a newb like me would be greatly appreciated as well.


Thanks!
Asonimie

[Physics101]

PVP is nothing like it is in WoW, after being a pirate for some time now and being in countless fights (both outnumbered, fair, and overkill) I still get that adrenaline rush. The key to making pvp fun is to fly with people you enjoy hanging out on voice comms with, because there can be some serious lulls in pvp. There is nothing more frustrating than being outnumbered and not being able to get the enemy to commit to a fight, and it happens pretty often.

On lasting appeal, eve is what you make it. Find people you enjoy flying with, and if it starts to get dull take a break.

[Tombs]

Boxing in Eve has some benefits, which you've probably read. (Mining&Hauling solo, missions, etc) Largely I didn't find the game fun solo and that is why I ended up quitting, twice. I played the summer of '03 when it was released and tried again in early '05.

[asonimie]

Well thank you so much for the responses so far, very informative! Couple more questions raised now however: Do most of you guys play with regular single players? Are you all on different servers/realms? Anyone interested in "flying" with another boxer for pvp / mining monopoly? Is this a viable idea? I love the idea of teaming up with another boxer if possible to get started, so speak up if you're up for helping me get started as Stoat outlined.

@Stoat: Thanks for the long response, but in the end I'm not sure what you meant, is your final summary negative or positive overall? Do you guys consider EVE to be a decaying / declining game? Is it worth trying to invest in the game at this point?

@Mining: Is it possible to log in, set miners to auto mine with some auto-defensive drones or whatever, and go watch a movie while they collect? Or does it require constant attention like in WOW.

@Corps; If boxers arent playing together, Any recommendations for corporations/groups I should seek out? I heard names of a pvp corporation on these forums but cant remember who it was. Someone to help me get started working towards mining rigs would be cool too.

Thanks again guys!

[stoat]

There's only 1 server with between 18k-50k accounts online at any given time. Eve is growing but some people feel the devs are pushing it in the wrong direction in order to facilitate growth (others feel CCP are just using it as a testbed for new technology for their new emovampire MMO - haven't heard much about it lately though). It's definitely not too late to get in on the action though, and like I said you can pretty much play for 2 months without it costing you a dime so there's no reason not to try it out.

Most of my friends that used to play eve have since moved on - I try to entice them back with offers of paying for their accounts/ships/implants but I am seldom taken up on the offer. It really is a make your own fun type of game though, with the right corp it can be tons of fun. The problem is of course that many of the 'fun' corps with strong leadership/fleet commanders will not take a brand new player. That's not to say there aren't corporations that will take new players, there are tons of them, it's just that the quality can be a bit spotty. Eve University can be a good training tool, although their pvp training seems to go along the lines of 'bring a ton of people... still die horribly'.

You can automine to the extent that your cargohold fills up. In most mining ships this happens fairly rapidly (inside of 1 0 minutes) you will then either need to haul the ore to a station or jettison it into a jetcan (which other players can and do steal) then pick it up later with a hauler (the jetcan will hold significantly more ore than your mining ship).

You may also consider another career possibility... scamming for ingame items/currency is completely legal and encouraged. The recent influx of new blood into the game has produced some facepalm worthy scams that have worked netting large hauls.

As far as multiboxers in eve, I would say most people that I know that still do play have at least 3-4 accounts - it really is a game that rewards you for having many characters that are capable of doing various things. The increase in GTC prices coupled with the nerf to inactive account training probably has reduced the incentive to multiaccount somewhat, personally I went from 7 to 3.

[Redbeard]

Yep one server, but space is vaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaast. Seems like most people have a "neighborhood" or Region they hang out in for the most part, you could play your whole eve life in one spot and not see the thousands of other people out there.

I like the one server thing. I think it fosters a more intimate community.

There are macrominers but its illegal (though there are still tons of them). The more you train your mining skillls, the more youll have to manage your inventory (because you fill up more quickly).

The people I play with... id say its 50 / 50 that have multiple accounts, most common is 2.

[RobinGBrown]

PVP
For those who enjoy pvp, how as EVE held up compared to WOW or any similar mmo? I have dreams of running a Gank squad like anyone else. Are there ways to do this anywhere... and make any sort of profit? I also love the idea of losing real materials if you fail, instead of just a repair bill.

RL Cash Market
Is it realistic to think I could set up a mining/ "playing the ah" operation down the road and be able to fund my subscription fees?

Lasting Appeal
What do you guys do once you have these maxed out, "best in slot" mining Rigs. Just earn mad Isk? Sell for more ships/weapons? Start an army? What is the final Goal I can expect to work towards(and does it tie in to my PVP goals)?

Are you guys running a boxer "Guild" or Corp at all? or is everyone just spread out playing alone.

What is the expected playtime investment before I can effectively "achieve" any of this. Do i have to grind for 10 months before I am a noticable/established player?

I love the idea of playing less RL hours, training while offline, running a gank fleet around the universe, and not paying RL cash for gametime.

My view on EVE PVP is that it's horribly biased towards veteran players. The basic problem is that one on one you will not be able to defeat a smart player who started the game before you. By 'smart' I mean someone who is trained and setup for PVP, took advice on ship builds, and didn't waste time messing about. It's easy to gank people who are not PVPers or who play dumb regardless of play time but you'll never beat another PVPer with more game time. Gang and fleet combat is a different matter though, I have no experience of that.

One of the appeals of EVE is that there's no way to 'max out' your character - I read that to get all skills to level 5 would take 50+ _years_!! So the way forward is to specialise into a ship that you like.

In my opinion it will take you three months before you get the hang of what you want to do and how to do it, and then another 6 months to get to the early stages of your choice. Some careers are easier - being an interceptor pilot can be done in about 2-3 months and that will get you into a PVP corp, getting to mine in an exhumer takes a similar amount of time.

I find EVE to be an expensive game, it costs more than WoW per month and you either need to spend money to buy ISK or do a lot of grinding to fund your game. It _is_ possible to be self funding but I think that that would use up a lot of your time.

Souca and I were contemplating an alliance (which is a group of corporations, kind of like a superguild) but I need to train up an alt with alliance management skills before we can do that. AFAIK most multiboxers either have their own corp or are invloived in another one.

Eve is growing but some people feel the devs are pushing it in the wrong direction in order to facilitate growth

You can automine to the extent that your cargohold fills up. In most mining ships this happens fairly rapidly (inside of 1 0 minutes) you will then either need to haul the ore to a station or jettison it into a jetcan (which other players can and do steal) then pick it up later with a hauler (the jetcan will hold significantly more ore than your mining ship).

The increase in GTC prices coupled with the nerf to inactive account training probably has reduced the incentive to multiaccount somewhat, personally I went from 7 to 3.

To me it feels liek they're pushing it in the right direction, EVE has been completely PVP biased for years, and it's taking an awful long time for the devs to realise that if they make it more accesible to other playstyles it will be a beter game and make more money.

Multiboxers do excel at mining, a decent mining op takes 4-5 ships/players/accounts - you need 2-3 miners and a hauler at minimum plus optionally a specialised ship like an Orca or Rorqual to optimise the mining.

I had 16 or so accounts at one time but I'm taking characters from those accounts (once they finished training for a specific ship) and adding them to my main accounts.The nerfing of ghost training has really thrown a spanner in my plan though.

I like the one server thing. I think it fosters a more intimate community.

There are macrominers but its illegal (though there are still tons of them).

Intimiate as in bloody...

Macromining is an issue and it seems the devs don't care about it. It's _too_ easy to macro mine in EVE so there are a ton of them out there - they do make good targets for piracy though as they never fight back.

Phew, epic reply, hope I helped you out. There are good things and bad things about EVE so you'll have to try it out to get an idea.

[Redbeard]

PVP
For those who enjoy pvp, how as EVE held up compared to WOW or any similar mmo? I have dreams of running a Gank squad like anyone else. Are there ways to do this anywhere... and make any sort of profit? I also love the idea of losing real materials if you fail, instead of just a repair bill.

RL Cash Market
Is it realistic to think I could set up a mining/ "playing the ah" operation down the road and be able to fund my subscription fees?

Lasting Appeal
What do you guys do once you have these maxed out, "best in slot" mining Rigs. Just earn mad Isk? Sell for more ships/weapons? Start an army? What is the final Goal I can expect to work towards(and does it tie in to my PVP goals)?

Are you guys running a boxer "Guild" or Corp at all? or is everyone just spread out playing alone.

What is the expected playtime investment before I can effectively "achieve" any of this. Do i have to grind for 10 months before I am a noticable/established player?

I love the idea of playing less RL hours, training while offline, running a gank fleet around the universe, and not paying RL cash for gametime.

My view on EVE PVP is that it's horribly biased towards veteran players. The basic problem is that one on one you will not be able to defeat a smart player who started the game before you. By 'smart' I mean someone who is trained and setup for PVP, took advice on ship builds, and didn't waste time messing about. It's easy to gank people who are not PVPers or who play dumb regardless of play time but you'll never beat another PVPer with more game time. Gang and fleet combat is a different matter though, I have no experience of that.

Robin makes some good points but I wanted to comment on this one. What he describes above, he calls a "problem". I dont think its a problem at all. Its biased for older players for two reasons.

1) They have more skill points than you.
2) They (probably) have more money than you.

I dont see either as a "problem" really.

Another thing to keep in mind is that Eve is a broad game not a deep game (well its more broad than deep). Back in the day when i was single boxing WoW, i took a break and went to play Eve. My WoW guildmates were crazy into PVP so i told them, lets go play a real pvp game. After reading about how skills worked, one of the guys commented. "It sounds awesome but I cant play, since I didnt get in in the beginning. Ill never catch up to those guys." In one sense, hes right, hell never has any many SP as people playing from the beginning. However, there are only so many skill points you can apply towards 1 ship / module. Additionally, the game suffers from harsh diminishing returns. Going from 4-5 on some skills is like a 2-5% bump. Sure, its a bump, but generally its not a deal breaker.

At any rate. Old people have an advantage. And they should. (Just as somebody in T8 or whatever has an advantage over somebody who just turned 80).