Sweet, DK tanking nerf.

[Zaelar]

Mages can't tank or heal in any spec. Nerf druids.

The difference between a feral dps spec and a feral tank spec is like 4 points. The difference between dk tank and dk dps is like 20. 32/39 isn't tanking anything that a fury/arms warrior can't.

[puppychow]

so going back to the original topic does anyone know how this affects multiboxing DK tanking? Right now the way I see it DK tanks provide a big DPS boost over other tanks and have decent TPS/aggro, so make the best multiboxer tanks -- i in fact have a super geared prot pally who has been sitting idle for 2 weeks while I level my DK (level 76! almost there!)

After patch 3.1, what are the multiboxing goodies that are removed? I don't care about ulduar tanking or whatnot, just how do the nerfs affect multiboxers? Unholy aura is gone so no party 15% move speed buff, right? What about the 13% spell dmg buff, is that gone? I don't think heroics will be "harder" with a DK tank in terms of his damage taken, so anything else thats a big deal?

Either way I'm having a blast with my DK, its a lot more fun class to play than prot paladin imo. Just having a ghoul buddy run along side me is fun

[Zaelar]

If you spam your heals with your dps macro, the blade barrier change might benefit you in that damage is a little more consistent, even though it's a huge nerf in the grand scheme of things. All of the talented cooldowns got changed to 2 minutes, so if you worked around alternating them with IF every 30 seconds or so that's out. I'm not sure how the damage changes help/hurt boxers though. Diseases being more mandatory hurts if you don't have a 100% hit rate, as that's more attention required.

[Tombs]

Nothing much should change as far as using a DK as a boxing tank. 0 runic power IBF is gone as well but that shouldn't be too big of a deal either.

[genocyde]

You can

Dks can PvP, Tank, DPS well

as feral. Keep this argument grounded in PvE and you have a class that can Tank and DPS arguing about a class that can Tank and DPS. PvP is highly anecdotal, comes in many flavors, and depends a lot on group composition. I don't PvP so I am going to leave it at that.

The PvP argument can be somewhat ignored even tho DK's need nerfed in PvP because, well... feral druids are just fine in PvP and almost as strong as DK's. Holy pally's are the real arena OP.

Saying that a Feral can DPS, Tank, and PvP in the same spec is just straight wrong. I have to drastically change my spec around between tank and DPS and it's a hell of a lot more difference than 4 points.

In cat spec I lose 12% straight mitigation (magic and physical), 12% armor from items which may or may not bonus off bear form, 6% dodge, and Infected Wounds (druids version of the boss slowing talent that all tanks have in some way).

In Bear spec I lose about 1k-1.5k DPS off of my kitty.

The big difference lies in the difference between forms and presences. I lose all of my dps abilities and buffs that cat form offers when i go to bear form. Do DK's lose most of their buffs and core abilities to go to frost presence? Honestly, I don't know.

I think theres been a lot of classes complaining about each other with no concept of what's going on with the other class. I just figured I'd educate on the druid perspective. After all we are both in the tanking getting totally nerfed phase here. Our DPS does not compare to DK's, but as of 3.1 it will if the PTR changes go live (i think we may add more but not lose any of whats on there).

Now someone can educate me as to how presence switching and re-speccing affects a DK when trying to tank and DPS or u can continue your thread. I just feel some druids came in here going "HAHA, welcome to hybrid nerfing!" and I saw a few posts of completely druid-uneducated comments saying that we are just as strong as DK's. I don't know if we are or not, but most of the druid comments in here were wrong so far from a raid druids point of view.

From a multiboxing point of view, I wish druids had the kind of AoE tanking a DK does and the 13% spell damage buff and I'm sure DK's wouldn't mind having my health and armor and the fact that i'm crit immune in PvE with no gear on.... but alas my health and armor are toast as of 3.1, I'll just have to be glad i've got battle res and other utility.

EDIT: Typo

[Tombs]

@undefinedgeno (breaking the quote train )

DKs give up about the same stuff speccing for tank stuffs. 15% armor, 5% dodge, situational 10% parry, some can't get 20% attack speed slow and are stuck with the default 10%, and a loss of 1-2K dps ballpark. Takes around 20 talent points out of dps stuff.

Presences are nothing like stances or forms. All of your abilities are available in all presences. The bonuses provided by the stances are the big part. We don't have many tanking abilities, only three baseline ones come to mind (rune strike, anti-magic shell, and icebound fort), we have lots of core abilities that are dual purpose. Most of our tanking abilities are deep talents so each tree has some trick the others can't do.

Presences:
Blood - 15% more damage, 4% of damage done in healing
Frost - 80% armor increase, 15%? less magic damage taken, increased threat generation (130-145% probably the later), and 10% more health
Unholy - 15% haste, lower GCD to 1 sec, 15% increased movement speed

You bring the group 5% melee crit and a little heal proc so you don't get 13% increased spell damage.

[Tombs]

Whoops that was supposed to be 5% physical crit. Doesn't change much with your argument though :\ I don't think I've ever seen anyone boxing hunters.

[Multibocks]

@undefinedgeno (breaking the quote train )

DKs give up about the same stuff speccing for tank stuffs. 15% armor, 5% dodge, situational 10% parry, some can't get 20% attack speed slow and are stuck with the default 10%, and a loss of 1-2K dps ballpark. Takes around 20 talent points out of dps stuff.

Presences are nothing like stances or forms. All of your abilities are available in all presences. The bonuses provided by the stances are the big part. We don't have many tanking abilities, only three baseline ones come to mind (rune strike, anti-magic shell, and icebound fort), we have lots of core abilities that are dual purpose. Most of our tanking abilities are deep talents so each tree has some trick the others can't do.

Presences:
Blood - 15% more damage, 4% of damage done in healing
Frost - 80% armor increase, 15%? less magic damage taken, increased threat generation (130-145% probably the later), and 10% more health
Unholy - 15% haste, lower GCD to 1 sec, 15% increased movement speed

You bring the group 5% melee crit and a little heal proc so you don't get 13% increased spell damage.

Actually Frost Presence is now only 10% magic mitigation. Pretty much inline with warriors defensive stance.

[Tombs]

On the PTR anyway. Defensive stance got dropped to 5%.

[Souca]

0 runic power IBF is gone as well but that shouldn't be too big of a deal either.

I actually think this is one of the bigger nerfs. A lot of DK abilties are dual cooldown/resource. The problem is that when you need to do IBF, you have to have the runic power and the cooldown. The cooldown is managable, but the rune power is situational. Runestrike is a very powerful threat generation ability but also somewhat random. With the change to the glyph there will be more situations where IBF would have saved you but you just didn't have the runic power because you happened to runestrike before.

I know there are other multi resource abilties that other classes have to deal with, but it just gets overwhelming with a DK at times. I've never played a warrior, but does last stand or shield wall have a rage requirement?

This change will be less impact on tanks that are well geared, but generally thats always the case.

- Souca -