Throwdown: 4-shamans and a tank versus Mixed group

[Hachoo]

I mostly see DPS for mixed class groups in the 1500-2200 range, and there are a lot of all shaman and all druid dps groups doing >4000 dps (or even if you remove bloodlust > 2900 dps).

Idealized numbers pulled from DPS peaks aside, I can pull 2900 on several of my classes. It's largely a matter of gearing and warm up time. Not to mention I suspect that magma totems play a significant role in long term DPS statistics for 4 shaman groups to the point I question how much they boost dps. A tick every 2 seconds on 3+ mobs will boost your dps significantly, which isn't to say I want to discount them from DPS statistics, but if the shamans themsevles are only putting out 2300-2400 DPS and Totem of broken AOE (seriosuly, almost every other AOE requires channeling or GCD spamming) is picking up the rest, it says something about the validity of your argument that sequencing macros are and always will be shit.

Magma totems aren't a factor in my DPS - the only time I ever use them is for the zombies in CoS and a couple aoe pulls in a couple other dungeons - never on boss fights or when im actually looking at my DPS meter.

[Bigfish]

You don't need to keep in mind what is lost, you need to compare what is lost with what is gained. Big difference.

Yes or no depending on what the calculations say. In the end, what people 'feel' is irrelevant, but calculating it is difficult, because some talent builds are more effective in specific combat situation (e.g. single target versus multi-target).

Overall, I'm confident that classes are more or less balanced DPS-wise. Where you lose DPS from losing an elemental, you gain DPS from another skill, perhaps even in another form. (or the same form, cause mages can have a pet too).

When levelling a new group, I chose skills and abilities that I need and then start forming a composition based on what each character adds.

1. The fact that I was espousing a marginal benefit analysis includes the notion that costs and benefits are weighed. That particular statement was a reminder that a 4th shaman isn't just a redundant healer that offers nothing you don't already have.

2. What people value is a key factor in how they behave. It isn't a matter of how they "feel", but where their individual playstyle, goals, and target activities are. If there were only a single, absolute answer, there would be no variation in behavior.

3. Different skills offer different utility based on situation. You may see a larger loss in DPS because the "form" some other skill took doesn't apply as much as the skill of a different class.

[Bigfish]

Magma totems aren't a factor in my DPS - the only time I ever use them is for the zombies in CoS and a couple aoe pulls in a couple other dungeons - never on boss fights or when im actually looking at my DPS meter.

See, that right there has me curious about your methodology for gathering DPS numbers. I'm left with this impression that you're cherry picking your numbers, which is fine if we're comparing e-peens, but since we're comparing over all performance, we need to understand what we're looking at big picture.

Now, I'll be the first to say that when it comes to front loaded, burn-em-down fights, Shamans reign supreme. Elemental Mastery, Oath, Bloodlust, Fire Elementals, and the fact you start with a flameshock and lava burst means you end fights quicker and thus rely less on healing and sustained DPS. Which is fine. (While I'm thinking about it, Elemental Mastery and bloodlust stacking, you're going to see some 70% increase in DPS right there. Ouch)

The point is, Shamans are built to be able to do that, so drawing on that in a straight comparison to the DPS of other classes means there should at least be a note explaining why.

Does this mean anything in our discussion of shamans versus mixers? Certainly. In fact, its a pretty big reason why Shaman groups excel: Ridiculous opening DPS finishes fights before they've really begun.

That said, all shaman teams get hit even harder when the nerf bat lands, as I'm sure many will attest to pre-3.08. Right now, they work wonderfully, but there is always that chance that said nerf bat hits, and you're left waiting months for the pendulum to swing back.

But this is assuming DPS and fast 5-man bosses are the only area we are discussing. This list of things to consider goes on and on.

[Hachoo]

Magma totems aren't a factor in my DPS - the only time I ever use them is for the zombies in CoS and a couple aoe pulls in a couple other dungeons - never on boss fights or when im actually looking at my DPS meter.

See, that right there has me curious about your methodology for gathering DPS numbers. I'm left with this impression that you're cherry picking your numbers, which is fine if we're comparing e-peens, but since we're comparing over all performance, we need to understand what we're looking at big picture.

Now, I'll be the first to say that when it comes to front loaded, burn-em-down fights, Shamans reign supreme. Elemental Mastery, Oath, Bloodlust, Fire Elementals, and the fact you start with a flameshock and lava burst means you end fights quicker and thus rely less on healing and sustained DPS. Which is fine. (While I'm thinking about it, Elemental Mastery and bloodlust stacking, you're going to see some 70% increase in DPS right there. Ouch)

The point is, Shamans are built to be able to do that, so drawing on that in a straight comparison to the DPS of other classes means there should at least be a note explaining why.

Does this mean anything in our discussion of shamans versus mixers? Certainly. In fact, its a pretty big reason why Shaman groups excel: Ridiculous opening DPS finishes fights before they've really begun.

That said, all shaman teams get hit even harder when the nerf bat lands, as I'm sure many will attest to pre-3.08. Right now, they work wonderfully, but there is always that chance that said nerf bat hits, and you're left waiting months for the pendulum to swing back.

But this is assuming DPS and fast 5-man bosses are the only area we are discussing. This list of things to consider goes on and on.

I'm really going off the main thing that matters for DPS numbers - boss fights. In most cases, DPS doesn't matter at all - certainly it doesn't matter on trash other than to flash e-peens, etc. On most bosses it doesn't matter either. When it does matter is when you are trying to get certain achievements (like consumption junction) or when a boss gets consistently harder the less DPS you do (Examples would be trollgore, novos, King Ymiron, etc). So, all of my numbers are directly from recount from boss fights. I rarely pay attention to my DPS on anything other than boss fights, and I really only post numbers for boss fights I don't have to heal on, because obviously my DPS will drop severely on fights where I'm using all 4 of my shamans to heal. This doesn't mean that shaman DPS is lower, it means that instead of losing 1 shaman to healing and having the other 3 shamans still kick out XXXX dps, I'm losing say 1000 dps off the top of each shaman but having all 4 shamans DPSing.

So, as I've said before, I am using numbers from boss fights like Trollgore, Eck, Gal'Darah, and other fights where I do not have to heal. The best example I like to use is trollgore - the last 4 times I ran this instance my DPS was always above 4600 on him, and 2 of the fights >5000.

Realistically no one is going to be able to post exact details of "you will definitely get XXXX dps" without running the same exact fight 1000 times and averaging everything, and I have no desire to waste hours trying to prove a DPS number, I am simply listing numbers that I've consistently hit as I run the same bosses over and over again.

Edit: wanted to add that yes, frontload dps shamans reign surpreme, and yes it will level out for sure over a greater period of time, but almost every single boss fight (non-raid) right now can be completed before bloodlust even wears off if you have decent gear, so its kind of useless unless you're raiding to be discounting it

[Hachoo]

Yes - if I drop 4x mana springs and have water shield up I can spam LB forever (literally).

[Bigfish]

And that's fine. The thing is, not everyone, myself included there, run DPS Meters under those same circumstances, which leads to someone like me keeping their DPS Meter running the whole time to someone like you running it on boss fights where you don't have to heal. Neither method is "correct", but it leads to key differences in drawing comparisons to either, where I see you as chery picking your numbers and you see me as a scrub with piss poor DPS. (Not that you said that or I'm trying to put words in your mouth, you and me are unrelated 3rd party pronouns I'm using for the exampe.)

[Hachoo]

And that's fine. The thing is, not everyone, myself included there, run DPS Meters under those same circumstances, which leads to someone like me keeping their DPS Meter running the whole time to someone like you running it on boss fights where you don't have to heal. Neither method is "correct", but it leads to key differences in drawing comparisons to either, where I see you as chery picking your numbers and you see me as a scrub with piss poor DPS. (Not that you said that or I'm trying to put words in your mouth, you and me are unrelated 3rd party pronouns I'm using for the exampe.)

I agree - this is why results will never be 100% accurate which is why they shouldn't be treated as such. I do leave my DPS meters running the entire instance, I just reset them before bosses generally. I tend to average about 2200 dps per shaman on trash - this is with a standard castrandom macro, and of course I have to heal more on trash than bosses so that leaches my DPS down quite a bit, but that still makes my "average non-boss full-party DPS" to be around 10k (1200 for DK, 2200 per shaman) which is still pretty awesome, and could be higher if I was less lazy

The only point I'm trying to make from the entire thread is that, while it is theoretically possible to have a higher overall dps with a mixed group than with a group of say 4 shamans or 4 druids, the chances of that happening are pretty slim IMO, and many of the other benefits that a mixed group provides (like blessings, power word fort, arcane int, imp, etc) are ok when you're undergeared but aren't really that big of a deal after you get some practice running heroics. Of course they're a bigger deal in raids but honestly how many multiboxers on this site even get a chance to multibox while they raid? Very few.

Just want to reiterate my original post though - play what you have the most fun with, but my opinion is that if you want to min/max then 4 shamans is the way to go.

[Hachoo]

Recount has an option to view only the "current fight" and can pull data from the last 6 fights individually..... just incase you guys didn't know - because it sounds like you don't.

I did know that, I have just never dug into the options to figure out how to actually do that - a single boxer I run with occasionally will post just boss fight data, then overall data, etc, so I know its possible but just don't know how to do it

[Bigfish]

I know its there, I just rarely use it. Tends to bug out on me anyway, dropping the fight at odd times. Like I said, I'm more interested in end of the day DPS anyway. And to an extant, total damage done, since several characters will have similar DPS but vastly different total damage done, usually because of melee run times.

[Dominian]

Bosses is the thing, what dps you can pull at trash doesnt matter.. Most trash can be cc and is to short to make your healer run oom anyway.

There are also certain specs that NEVER will preform good on trash due to the length, like aff locks who needs dots start ticking to deal real damage.

What is your setup now Bigfish and the names?

Would be intresting to see your setup.