x1Pally x4 Shaman, or a mixed team? (For PvE)

[Ken]

It's funny how people suggest chosing a paladin with 4 shamans, but they don't tell you why.

That's because we've explained the reasons hundreds of times. :)
Blessings and Totems is the short-short answer.

- 4 PvE characters from the same class are very difficult to gear, because they all share the same gear. It's almost 4 times slower!

Incorrect - Shaman can wear Leather and Cloth. Gearing them up for harder content is FAST. You have so many options. Elemental Shaman are basically casters - sure, mail is ideal, but not required by any means.

You want to put shamans in cloth? Sure you CAN do that, but it's everything but desirable.

- Characters from the same class share the same skills. Granted, multiple shamans give you lots of totems to chose from, but you miss other awesome buffs and skills that other classes have.

Stacking totems (4x mana spring anyone?) is THE reason to roll this group. Its not a negative by any means. And Shaman bring almost every buff available to a group. And 3.1 is making this even better.

The mana spring is useful, but other classes have their own manaregen if you chose them carefully (e.g. disc priest, paladin blessing, survival hunter, etc.). Most importantly, when your characters are decently geared, you don't even need all those mana spring totems. I personally find that when 2 shamans have put down their totems, there aren't really many important totems left and any additional totems won't give you a major benefit.
It then becomes a lot more interesting to look at the major benefits from other classes.

- If a boss has full resistance against a specific type of damage(e.g. nature damage) it will make a specific DPS class almost useless.

3.0 fixed this. I don't know of any bosses that immune to both Nature and Fire.

Even if a boss is only immune to your lightning bolts, it takes a long time to take him down with fire shocks and lava bursts only because of the cooldown.

A lot of top level gear can be bought/crafted. More so, mixed class groups often suffer from poor drop syndrome, with the drops being out of class/spec. Hell, bottom line instance gear isn't very fast for trying to gear ANY group.

I was talking about getting epic gear. Granted, you could craft some epic gear, but crafting assumes you have a crafting profession or shitloads of money to by the stuff from the auction house.

As far as buffs go, many classes synergize well with themselves. Shamans in particular excel at this in so much that they can benefit from multiple same-element totems.

I know, I *have* 4 shamans ;) But I disagree that having 4 shamans in a group has a buff advantage because of the totems. All major totems are put down when you have utilized 2 of your shamans (8 totems down, including haste, agility and wrath). More totems of course add more benefitis, but the remaining totem benefits are smaller compared to what other classes could offer(e.g. 2k stamina from priest with discipline spirit buff, mage int buff, druid stat increase, etc. etc.)
For example: There's no way that I'd trade in portals AND free drinks/food AND my int buff for a few shaman totems. The fire mage even puts up to 10% extra spell crit chance onto the target due to improved scorch:
http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=12873
(which gets applied twice per cast due to a glyph)
... for me that's like having a second totem of wrath down that actually works :P (ok, it doesn't add more spellpower, but it adds more critical chance)

[Bigfish]

I know, I *have* 4 shamans But I disagree that having 4 shamans in a group has a buff advantage because of the totems. All major totems are put down when you have utilized 2 of your shamans (8 totems down, including haste, agility and wrath). More totems of course add more benefitis, but the remaining totem benefits are smaller compared to what other classes could offer(e.g. 2k stamina from priest with discipline spirit buff, mage int buff, druid stat increase, etc. etc.)
For example: There's no way that I'd trade in portals AND free drinks/food AND my int buff for a few shaman totems. The fire mage even puts up to 10% extra spell crit chance onto the target due to improved scorch:

Well, I have one of EVERYTHING, and honestly, most of the synergy buffs of other classes are pretty weaksauce compared to the benefits of shamans. Even tossing buffs out, shamans still maintain a hefty advantage in chain heal, a spell that is naturally enhanced by DPS caster gearing, and has amazing mana efficiency and punch.

So adding a mage nets you an Int buff, 10% spell crit, a lot more micromanagement, and -1 chain healer. It just snowballs from there, as you get a wider range of classes, you get a wider range of buffs, but they become more unwieldy as their various weaknesses come in to play as well.

[Bigfish]

If i'm waring a ilvl 165 mail green and a ilvl 200 cloth epic drops, guess what I'm going to equip?

Hold up! That dress is hunter loot! The spell power boosts my arcane shot.

[Bigfish]

I kid you not, there was once a day, long long ago when I had only one character, when I stacked frost damage on my hunter to boost the bonus damage on my Hurricane. Now that I think about it, that was right about the time I started boxing...

[Vyndree]

The cool beans about shammies is that they have both a 1) melee dps spec, 2) ranged dps spec, 3) healing spec. So when dual-spec comes out you can go nuts with the combinations. Pallies work great with shammies because they can 1) melee dps spec, 2) tank spec, 3) healing spec -- so you can do things like...

* pally tank, 4 ele dps
* pally healer, 4 ele dps
* pally tank, 3 ele dps, 1 resto
* pally tank, 1 enh dps, 2 ele dps, 1 resto
* pally tank, 2 enh dps, 1 ele dps, 1 resto
* pally tank, 2 enh dps, 2 ele dps
* pally healer, 2 enh dps, 2 ele dps
* pally tank, 4 enh dps
* pally tank, 3 enh dps, 1 resto
* pally healer, 4 enh dps (crazy amirite?)

I would say the only more flexible class setup is potentially 5 druids (ranged dps, melee dps, tanking, healing).


P.S. "Cloth" and "Leather" are listed under the "Skills" tab for shaman. If they didn't want shaman to ever wear those items, it wouldn't be available to them. There are many cases where cloth items are more desirable than mail. There are many more cases (consider that boomkins and ele shammies -- at least at 70 -- desire similar stats) where leather > mail. On my Sunwell raiding enhancement shaman, I would've given up twice as much DKP to get my hands on the leather helm from Illidan (sadly, I lost to a higher-DKP fury warrior -- yes, a plate wearer using leather).

I've seen mages and pallies rolling on +spirit gear because, even if you ignore the spirit entirely, it's an upgrade.

[Bigfish]

(sadly, I lost to a higher-DKP fury warrior -- yes, a plate wearer using leather).

Maybe its just me, but my Warrior tends to get her skull busted in when she tries stuff like that.

[Ken]

So adding a mage nets you an Int buff, 10% spell crit, a lot more micromanagement, and -1 chain healer.

You only need 1 dedicated healer for heroics and raiding. No need for extra chain heals. There isn't "a lot more micromanagement" if you group your spells properly and use cast sequences properly. In general all spells from any class can be categorized in general categories like aoe/instant cast/regular/DoT/etc. I personally categorize them into: single target dps cast sequence, multi target dps cast sequence, close combat cast sequence, spell interrupt
Also, I prefer 'real' AoE healing from a priest.

It just snowballs from there, as you get a wider range of classes, you get a wider range of buffs, but they become more unwieldy as their various weaknesses come in to play as well.

More unwieldy? o_O
Seriously, any class can do DPS fine with a castsequence. And what you might call "unwieldy" is something I might call a challenge.

You want to put shamans in cloth? Sure you CAN do that, but it's everything but desirable.

You're basically saying that Mages, Warlocks, and Priests aren't viable classes to play, period. Because their only gear option is cloth.

No, you're making statements that I did not make.

As you GET the mail drops, please feel free to regear your Shaman. But as I'm farming instances, if gear drops that I can use and will benefit my toons - I'm looting and equiping it. More DPS is more dps, no matter how you swing it.

Sure, but when you equip your shaman with cloth, I wouldn't find that shaman "geared out". Of course its DPS will be improved, but you haven't finished gearing that shaman, since he's still wearing cloth.

[edit]

P.S. "Cloth" and "Leather" are listed under the "Skills" tab for shaman.

O RLY! I know that, one of my shamans wears leather atm ;)

If they didn't want shaman to ever wear those items, it wouldn't be available to them. There are many cases where cloth items are more desirable than mail. There are many more cases (consider that boomkins and ele shammies -- at least at 70 -- desire similar stats) where leather > mail. On my Sunwell raiding enhancement shaman, I would've given up twice as much DKP to get my hands on the leather helm from Illidan (sadly, I lost to a higher-DKP fury warrior -- yes, a plate wearer using leather).

I've seen mages and pallies rolling on +spirit gear because, even if you ignore the spirit entirely, it's an upgrade.

So if you have your shamans in a cloth/leather/mail mix, you considered them all geared? I don't.

[Bigfish]

You only need 1 dedicated healer for heroics and raiding. No need for extra chain heals. There isn't "a lot more micromanagement" if you group your spells properly and use cast sequences properly. In general all spells from any class can be categorized in general categories like aoe/instant cast/regular/DoT/etc. I personally categorize them into: single target dps cast sequence, multi target dps cast sequence, close combat cast sequence, spell interrupt
Also, I prefer 'real' AoE healing from a priest.


More unwieldy? o_O
Seriously, any class can do DPS fine with a castsequence. And what you might call "unwieldy" is something I might call a challenge.

Why why why WHY do people think they know more about my set up than I do?

[Souca]

This is why Paladin + 4x Shaman trumps all.

Lets start with Buffs.

Mage - Arcane Int.
Who needs extra mana when elemental Shaman stack mana spring totems and have nearly unlimited mana?
Also Blessing of Wisdom is better.
Also add judgement of wisdom on top of this.

Int is more than just mana pool. Mage buff is a free 0.36% spell crit. Add Kings to this and you get an extra 6 Int.

Priest - Fortitude
Stack healing spring totems, although this is useful on raid tanks.

Warlock - Imp Buff or Fel Hunter Buff.
See Priest and Mage.

Blessing of Kings is arguably better than all of these - and its getting baselined in 3.1 All Paladin's will have it.

And other buffs get better with Kings. Kings one of the best scaling buffs in the game. The more you start with, the more you get. You can't talk about how great Kings is and ignore buffs that improve it.

Fear?
Tremor totems make you immune to fear.

Only if you can still stagger them. If they are on a synchronized 3 second tick, the only benefit more than one gives you is range. And it's a fear break, not an immunity. Priest's have an immunity in one of their useless buffs.

DK's Horn of Winter?qrns
Imp. Strength of Earth totem trumps this.

DK's bring 13% more damage to the table if spec'd Unholy. Yes, this is nice. No, its not needed.

Kings isn't needed. Mana totems aren't needed. Acording to the latest game design from Blizzard, no buff is needed. This is however a great buff for casters. You will see more benefit from this buff than Kings. Depending on how geared your casters are, this may even be better than Totem of Wrath from a pure damage perspective, but why chose when you can have both?

DK's death grip?
Paladin's are getting Avenger's Shield with silencing abilities in 3.1 Almost the same thing, possibly even better.

Not the same thing, and difficult to compare. Both have their uses. Death Grip is the only ability in the game that moves a mob closer to you. Not saying it's better or worse, but just dismissing this out of hand does not lend credence to your analysis.

DK's Anti-Magic Shell?
Grounding Totems are very similar in nature, although not as good.

Between a Paladin and a Resto Shaman, you can remove ANY debuff (poison, disease, magic, and curses)

In a Pally Shaman Group = the entire group can heal. Massive chain heal = full group full life in 2 secs.

Ressurection! If you wipe, you've got 4 chances to pop back up instead of running back.

Paladin's bring a truck load of "oh shit" abilities.

Blessing of Protection
Hand of Salvation
Blessing of Freedom
Lay on Hands
Divine Protection
They can rez.

Shaman bring:
Spell Haste
Melee Haste
Spell Power
Cleansing Totems
Replenishment Totems
Anti-Fear
Anti-Magic (grounding totems)

...I'm sure I could go on. The group setup trumps everything. Synergy x1000.

What about DK tank, 3 elemental shammy and a holy pally? Don't get me wrong, I love my pally shammy group, but I'm willing to trade a shammy for an Unholy DK. A DK with Blessing on Sanctuary is a very powerful force. I know I'll have to spec my holy pally into prot, but its just that good.

I don't think there is a perfect group. There are better groups than others, but until you can play to a level that the comp makes a difference, then it's all moot. It's possible that you play to that level. Currently I don't, so I don't worry about those last few percent I could get. I focus on having fun. I don't discount other comps out of hand though. Besides, how boring would it be if there was just *one* perfect comp? I'm sure Vyndree will find it and ruin all the fun for the rest of us, but until then each group has its ups and downs.

All that said, if I had it to do all over again, I'd still start will Pally/Shaman because I think it is one of the easier groups to learn. And in the begining learning is the hardest part.


- Souca -

[Souca]

Not the same thing, and difficult to compare. Both have their uses. Death Grip is the only ability in the game that moves a mob closer to you. Not saying it's better or worse, but just dismissing this out of hand does not lend credence to your analysis.

It is and it isn't.

Death Grip is the anti-caster ability - bringing those ranged folks in close. A Silencing effect has the same end result in PvE - the caster can't cast, so it runs into melee range.

It might have the same end result, but it is by no means the same. Death grip works on melee as well. The fact that it interrupts is secondary; it moves the target to where you cast it. Not where you are, where you cast it. It also forces a mob to attack you for the next six seconds, but its not a taunt, so it is handy even if the mob is standing right next to you but you want to get it to attack you instead of the squishy rogue until the tank gets a chance to pick it back up. My point being while you can compare it other abilities it will always be an Apple vs Microsoft argument; long, painful and ultimately pointless.

I swear by it because it lets me yank 80s from the sky on my 5 DK group. Nothing better than pulling that smug person on their flying mount down to melee range and hitting them with a stun or root.

- Souca -