Fun to watch your team advance

[Bigfish]

Forgot to add - I still have absolutely 0 issues holding aggro on everything. I'm not going to collect hit or expertise on purpose unless I have said issues. As of right now the only expertise/hit I have is what came on gear that were upgrades for me. I see no point in gemming or purposefully gearing for it unless I actually need it to hold aggro.

Not sure why tanks say to go for hit outside of aggro issues, but I know expertise is so that you can avoid getting Parry-whomped by something using a special-big hit-parry-big-hit. Of course, the chances of that occuring are fairly minimal anyway. I think half the tank theory-crafting comes out of people trying to add avoid the inevitable reality that they are walking meat shields or healers looking to make their own lives easier.

Then again, I haven't delved too deeply in to HPS and healer longevity either.

[Shaitan256]

I don't know if it's changed during the time Wow was released, and if it is/was true(never really looked for it, just read it somewhere) But Taunt for example can miss/be resisted(or whatever) and if a priest gets aggroed (what shouldn't happen) so he/she's going to be instagibbed unless the Tank taunts. If it resists, it's not good could cause a wipe. Ok I guess Mocking blow could help and all this other stuff, but if Taunt resists it's 1,5 sec GCD, 1,5 seconds you maybe not have to do other stuff .

[Hachoo]

Forgot to add - I still have absolutely 0 issues holding aggro on everything. I'm not going to collect hit or expertise on purpose unless I have said issues. As of right now the only expertise/hit I have is what came on gear that were upgrades for me. I see no point in gemming or purposefully gearing for it unless I actually need it to hold aggro.

Not sure why tanks say to go for hit outside of aggro issues, but I know expertise is so that you can avoid getting Parry-whomped by something using a special-big hit-parry-big-hit. Of course, the chances of that occuring are fairly minimal anyway. I think half the tank theory-crafting comes out of people trying to add avoid the inevitable reality that they are walking meat shields or healers looking to make their own lives easier.

Then again, I haven't delved too deeply in to HPS and healer longevity either.

Supposedly in 3.0.8 they're removing parry haste completely so this will no longer even be a possible issue No sense working on expertise to avoid parry gibbing if it won't exist anymore.

[Bigfish]

Supposedly in 3.0.8 they're removing parry haste completely so this will no longer even be a possible issue No sense working on expertise to avoid parry gibbing if it won't exist anymore.

Ug, really? I guess that's a good thing, but damn I wish they would stop messing with game mechanics.

[Multibocks]

I don't know if it's changed during the time Wow was released, and if it is/was true(never really looked for it, just read it somewhere) But Taunt for example can miss/be resisted(or whatever) and if a priest gets aggroed (what shouldn't happen) so he/she's going to be instagibbed unless the Tank taunts. If it resists, it's not good could cause a wipe. Ok I guess Mocking blow could help and all this other stuff, but if Taunt resists it's 1,5 sec GCD, 1,5 seconds you maybe not have to do other stuff .

And this is why the taunt glyph is very important, makes taunt unable to be resisted/miss/whatever. So this really isnt an issue.

[Niley]

No point, You dont need it, Your other stats are really low, and You should work on them first, dodge/hit and expertise, I can have way over 30k stam on my dk, yet I choose not too, I can 100% guarantee You that a tank with 22k hp and 25% dodge/23-5% parry will be a lot easier to heal than a tank with 10k more hp but 10% less dodge and parry(this is just an example).

I'd have to disagree here. You really have to weigh the increased survival time versus increased incoming DPS. Personally,I'll take the HP in a general situation that doesn't involve stacking the hypothetical odds in favor of avoidance. It has its trade-offs, such as increased load on the healer, however, as a boxer I find Stamina has a much higher benefit to not only my tanks, but all characters in general.

Edit: Upon further number crunching using an item point based model, the marginal benefit of Stamina has decreasing returns to scale, while the marginal benefit to avoidance has an increasing returns to scale, which means at some point, yeah, you will be indefenitely better off stacking avoidance. The Problem i see is that you don't reach that point until you hit about 52,000 HP. The obvious problem here is exactly as I put forth before: The healer has to spend more mana and put out a higher HPS to keep you up. More theorycrafting to come!

What do You base Your theory crafting of? I use Ej numbers to gear my tank and whatnot(and their sheets too), also its different for every tank class. How did you figure where to distribute the points for which stat? I can easily tell You that having more avoidance and 28ish will make it A lot easier on You, good example would be this ss from a heroic:


This is where my pally tank( i have 2 tanks), gets hit very hard, requires constant healing, there is no way ever I would be able to pull 3 groups with him, like i do with other tank. My Dk on the other hand has set that's mostly geared for avoidance/threat, can pull 2-3 groups in heroics and not need a heal, or pull a boss and live easily with just earth shield and riptide.
My pally:
http://www.wowarmory.com/character-s...onidas&n=Phean
He has stats much closer to OPs DK.

[Shaitan256]

I don't know if it's changed during the time Wow was released, and if it is/was true(never really looked for it, just read it somewhere) But Taunt for example can miss/be resisted(or whatever) and if a priest gets aggroed (what shouldn't happen) so he/she's going to be instagibbed unless the Tank taunts. If it resists, it's not good could cause a wipe. Ok I guess Mocking blow could help and all this other stuff, but if Taunt resists it's 1,5 sec GCD, 1,5 seconds you maybe not have to do other stuff .

And this is why the taunt glyph is very important, makes taunt unable to be resisted/miss/whatever. So this really isnt an issue.

Oh there's a glyph for taunt? Didn't noticed sry, haven't even looked @ the Warrior Glyphs, but if there are no betterglyphs this is your choice, and you can stack more in other stats then in hit

[Bigfish]

What do You base Your theory crafting of? I use Ej numbers to gear my tank and whatnot(and their sheets too), also its different for every tank class. How did you figure where to distribute the points for which stat? I can easily tell You that having more avoidance and 28ish will make it A lot easier on You, good example would be this ss from a heroic:


This is where my pally tank( i have 2 tanks), gets hit very hard, requires constant healing, there is no way ever I would be able to pull 3 groups with him, like i do with other tank. My Dk on the other hand has set that's mostly geared for avoidance/threat, can pull 2-3 groups in heroics and not need a heal, or pull a boss and live easily with just earth shield and riptide.

I use a basic analysis of increased survival time against a variable representing incoming damage on an item point based marginal benefit of a point of stamina versus a point of avoidance. The conclusion I came to was that while stamina has decreasing returns to scale and avoidance has increasing returns to scale, the point at which stamina's marginal utility decreases past the marginal utility of a point of avoidance happens at around 52k HP.

THAT SAID, its based off 2 key assumptions: 1. That base avoidance is 15%, and 2. You can determine where item points go as you see fit.

Given that both are not inherently true in actual gameplay (due to talents affecting base avoidance and tanking gear rendering a balance of stats insted of one or the other), the model has to be adjusted to accomodate a case by case basis of where a player's actual HP and avoidance are plugged in to the model to determine the marginal benefit of 1 item point of stamina versus 1 item point of avoidance.

Regardless, the principle holds that due to diminishing returns on stamina and increasing returns on avoidance, prior to a certain point in either avoidance or HP, you are better off stacking stamina over avoidance, and after that stacking avoidance over stamina. Beyond that, the only real question is one of the external load you are willing to put on your healer.

Bottom line: Avoidance isn't unconditionally better for a tank in any and all circumstances. It is after a certain point, but given that point is determined by two factors and not one, you can't make accurate blanket statements based off just one of the two variables. Once you hit X HP focus on Avoidance, or once you hit X avoidance, focus on HP are both innacurate statements because neither factor the reciprocal nature of how the two affect each other in the final outcome. Give me a minute to re-whip up the model I came up with yesterday and I'll post it.

[Bigfish]

HP                MbHP              Avoidance      MbAvoidance
20000	3	40	1.694915254
20600	2.912621359	41	1.724137931
21200	2.830188679	42	1.754385965
21800	2.752293578	43	1.785714286
22400	2.678571429	44	1.818181818
23000	2.608695652	45	1.851851852
23600	2.542372881	46	1.886792453
24200	2.479338843	47	1.923076923
24800	2.419354839	48	1.960784314
25400	2.362204724	49	2
26000	2.307692308	50	2.040816327
26600	2.255639098	51	2.083333333
27200	2.205882353	52	2.127659574
27800	2.158273381	53	2.173913043
28400	2.112676056	54	2.222222222
29000	2.068965517	55	2.272727273
29600	2.027027027	56	2.325581395
30200	1.986754967	57	2.380952381
30800	1.948051948	58	2.43902439
31400	1.910828025	59	2.5
32000	1.875	60	2.564102564
32600	1.840490798	61	2.631578947
33200	1.807228916	62	2.702702703
33800	1.775147929	63	2.777777778
34400	1.744186047	64	2.857142857
35000	1.714285714	65	2.941176471
35600	1.685393258	66	3.03030303
36200	1.657458564	67	3.125
36800	1.630434783	68	3.225806452
37400	1.604278075	69	3.333333333
38000	1.578947368	70	3.448275862
38600	1.554404145	71	3.571428571
39200	1.530612245	72	3.703703704

Ok, in this table, the final determinant of effectiveness is a tank's ability to soak up damage. A mob will deal X damage and kill a player after so long, but that factor is irrelevant as it factors out of the comparison. In other words, increasing soak potential or decreasing incoming damage both increase your time to live.
This table is based on a 40 item point interval, which amounts to 60 Stamina or 40 rating of dodge/defense.

The first colum of the table represents HP, the second colum is the marginal percentage increase in time to live of the next 40 points of stamina. The third column is avoidance, and the fourth is the marginal percentage increase in time to live per the next 40 points spent in avoidance.

Given the OP's stats and taking and cross referencing the marginal benefits on the table (and guessing his miss rate is 10% since he didn't provide it and I can't get to the armory atm), the marginal utility of getting 40 more points of stamina is 2.11 and the marginal utility of 40 more points in avoidance is 1.92.

He's better off stacking more HP until he either hits 32k buffed, or pulls 5% more avoidance from somewhere.

Now keep in mind these are rough numbers. I haven't figured in frost presence or lord knows how many other factors, but the principle of what I'm saying still holds: Until an analysis is run on the combination of HP and Avoidance to verify that any given player is indeed beyond the point the returns cross and reverse, a blanket statement cannot be meaningfully drawn.

[Multibocks]

Did you also factor in the diminishing returns of stacking avoidance? For example I believe on DKs that parry starts to diminish at 41% and dodge at 80something (which is why they suggest stacking dodge if you stack any avoidance.)