Emblems of Heroism

[Lyonheart]

there is no T8 btw.. its 10man=T7 and 25man=T7.5

Jesus, is it that hard to understand I meant "the next level of equipment"? T7.5, T8, T13, whatever.

lol, relax bud, just correcting misinformation. Yes, its easy to understand that you "meant" the next tier. Just don't want some noob saying in his general chat " Hey, where can i find the T8 vendor? " And the whole zone laugh at him because there is no T8 yet. And he might have read your post saying there is T8. Misinformation spreads 8) I know what you meant, do you know what I mean? rofl

[elsegundo]

so you are saying you dont want to wait for free epix? you want them handed to you before even the players who do top end raids get them? do you also want a /kill mob button for end game bosses if you dont want to wait for the raid to dps him down? sometimes it feels good to work for things than pure pew pew all the time. after all the game is a mmoRPG. by all means have your free epix but let others who want to acheive them through normal means have a chance to do so before you steamroll in and collect them at the dole line.

if there's two ways to get the same gears and one way is easier than the other... the folks who do it the hard way are dumb.

so why should the smart ones wait for the dumb ones to get their gear? sorry.. you make no sense. if you want to get your gear the old way, then sure, you play your game. but for those who see good gear and know a better way to get it, then my hats off to them.

[Mosg2]

I agree with OZPheonix. Equal effort=Equal gear. The only thing inherently more difficult about doing 25 man content is getting together 25 people who can pay attention at the same time for 10 minutes. That's all it is.

Sure, getting together 5 people with the same ability is easier, but that doesn't necessarily make it easy

Way back Blizz stated that they liked the idea of equivalent gear from 5 man Heroics and 25 man raids but the problem was one of scale. In a 25 man raid they can design it so that a few people die and you only lose 4-8-12% etc of your raid capability. In a 5 man, you can only lose 20% chunks. Also, it's difficult in the extreme to design interesting content that also does not require specific classes. A 5 man "raid" then would need to be very homogeinized in its content while also being perfectly tuned--IE, the rewards for making 5 man raid-level content is not worth the rewards.

I have my hopes up that they will add more badge gear to the vendors over time. As it stands, all of the 5 man/10 man tokens buy ilevel 187 while the 25 man tokens purchase ilevel 203. The difference between the gear is minimal, but my issue is that the vendor gear plus heroic gear does not cover every slot. It would be nice to be able to get a "starter set" of ilevel 187 items for 10 man raids to be honest.

Anyways, I'm rambling.

[TheBigBB]

I'm not sure what's wrong with the gear you get from heroics and heroic badges already. I am able to kill some bosses on heroics with questing blues without having had any previous experience doing heroics with a multibox team.

If nothing else, the thing that's harder about 25 man raids is that they're specifically designed to do more damage and require better damage output. This is just artificially put into the game to give a reason for people to keep wanting better gear when they move up to 25 man raiding to give them things to work towards. Although many 25 man encounters in the past (Vashj and Kael) have been way tougher than any 5-man content could ever be, that doesn't mean that this is the only way in which 25 man content is supposed to be different. If you think that you're giving an A+ effort for your 5 man heroics which deserves great gear, you still should only get gear appropriate for that content. The 25 man gear makes you an unstoppable heroics machine. That would hardly be appropriate at all. If you want to argue that this is not fair, then you need to argue that the game should be fundamentally changed and overhauled to either make heroics even harder or make 25 mans easier and remove Tier 7.5 from the game. You can't have the game as it stands now giving out 25 man gear for heroics-level players. It would be terrible design that would undermine the sense of accomplishment.

If you think the gear rewarded for heroics isn't good enough, I have to disagree 100%. I mean, I can get a tier piece without stepping foot in a raid? Incrediblly generous.

[Stabface]

There are already pugs running Naxx-25; I have personally been in one that cleared Arachnid and Construct, wiped on 4H a few times before calling it (didn't seem unpossible though).
Getting a full set of ilvl 187 blues to get you going on 10 mans (or 5 man heroics) is really easy - crafted gear! Make or buy some L80 blues and fill the rest of slots with the crafted PvP gear.

[welwyn]

It would be terrible design that would undermine the sense of accomplishment.

this. I multibox because i enjoy the challenge it brings. not the normal 5 x shaman iwin group ( allthough that in itself brings about its own difficultys) I am on about instancing at the correct level for my guys and with the normal gear. on a strange level i enjoy failing and wiping miserably, because i know when i do finally succeed i will be even more impressed withmyself and allthough its only me thats all i care about when playing a game.
on an exagerated level... if you could run 100 heroics and then be awarded with gear that had 10k stamina and a chance on hit/spellcast to replenish all health and drain it all from the enemy the game would be cakewalk and noone would enjoy it i dont think. I enjoy having to do heroics then onto 10 man then 25 man and seeing lots of people working together ( its me and 4 other boxers with a few pugs as some boxers 3/4 box) to actually acheive things.

I didnt mean to come across rude or as was nicely said " a dick " but i find it slightly annoying that while others are trying hard to acheive things you think that its your "right" to have the game opened up within a few months.

[Multibocks]

I see this is going to start the raiders vs casuals line here. Look, just stop and think for ONE second. You say it undermines the "sense of accomplishment" well let me ask you something. If you are on to T9 stuff and someone is farming badges for t7.5 equipment, at fucking 300 badges a piece... why do you care? I'll tell you why you care. You want to be bleeding edge and you like to be elitist and you generally want to dominate the shit out of casuals when you meet them in pvp or on your dps meter. That is why you care. No where in here did I say it was my "right".

I was just lamenting that badge gear AS IT STANDS NOW is barely BARELY better(and in a lot of cases worse) than the crap I craft and got from beating the heroics ... lame shit. I just wish that I could look at the vendor and go "ok I gotta save up for that slot, oooh and I definitely want that piece" As it stands now I'm going... "uh why would I want that?"

So anyways sorry to step on your elitist toes, but you started it, as all I was asking for was input on my equipment choices for my alt teams.

[Talamarr]

(just to derail a little more)

I never understood why people think that raiding is somehow "hard" and justifies extra rewards. I have raided and the only people at a raid that deserves any additional recognition are the Raid Leaders; or more accurate, the glorified Baby Sitters.

Everyone else just shows up, tries not to screw up and just does whatever small task they are instructed to do by the RL or by some strat they read on a website. If 25 people can get that right, the boss is down and you move on. Keeping a guild happy and keeping attendance regular is the real "hard" part about raiding.

[TheBigBB]

I see this is going to start the raiders vs casuals line here. Look, just stop and think for ONE second. You say it undermines the "sense of accomplishment" well let me ask you something. If you are on to T9 stuff and someone is farming badges for t7.5 equipment, at fucking 300 badges a piece... why do you care? I'll tell you why you care. You want to be bleeding edge and you like to be elitist and you generally want to dominate the shit out of casuals when you meet them in pvp or on your dps meter. That is why you care. No where in here did I say it was my "right".

I was just lamenting that badge gear AS IT STANDS NOW is barely BARELY better(and in a lot of cases worse) than the crap I craft and got from beating the heroics ... lame shit. I just wish that I could look at the vendor and go "ok I gotta save up for that slot, oooh and I definitely want that piece" As it stands now I'm going... "uh why would I want that?"

So anyways sorry to step on your elitist toes, but you started it, as all I was asking for was input on my equipment choices for my alt teams.

Whoa, you're totally off base here. We don't have T9 content yet, no one's talking about raiders versus casuals, (you can be a casual raider, too), no one says they want to own people in PVP with PVE gear, and especially in the multiboxing community I doubt many of us care about maximizing the DPS meter against other people.

I said that it undermines a sense of accomplishment and I'm sure we all really agree with this concept. You wouldn't list beating heroic Magister's Terrace an accomplishment if you did it at 80 because it's easy now. That's the idea that I'm after. Now, maybe you think this idea wouldn't apply here, but you can't scoff at it like it's totally invalid and leading to some larger, more sinister argument. It's not like that at all. I just don't want to find myself steamrolling everything I do and getting bored: it's as simple as that.

[TheBigBB]

(just to derail a little more)

I never understood why people think that raiding is somehow "hard" and justifies extra rewards. I have raided and the only people at a raid that deserves any additional recognition are the Raid Leaders; or more accurate, the glorified Baby Sitters.

Everyone else just shows up, tries not to screw up and just does whatever small task they are instructed to do by the RL or by some strat they read on a website. If 25 people can get that right, the boss is down and you move on. Keeping a guild happy and keeping attendance regular is the real "hard" part about raiding.

They are supposed to be designed to require better gear and be less forgiving. That's just how they're supposed to be designed! I've never, NEVER been in a guild which cleared all the raid content in the game when it was new, so to say that it's not more difficult is kind of silly. I was in a Naxx guild for 60 content back in the day and I did Black Temple when it was still sort of new, and I had a tough time. On the other hand, I cleared every heroic no problem with the same people who I was doing 25 man raids with. It's really harder man, whether it's due to logistics, guild politics, scheduling nightmares, high DPS, whatever. It's not ALL hard, but when you try to do it when it's new, goddamn it's way tougher than a 5 man heroic. I'd like to also point out that some bosses, like Muru, were designed so that only people in the best possible gear with the best possible execution could do it, which you can't ever say about a 5 man boss.