Mouse Broadcasting - Delays violate TOS?

[stealthy45]

As I tell HotkeyNet's users on the program's website, "Cars are legal but drunk driving is not. In the same way, this program is legal according to Blizzard's rules but certain kinds of hotkeys are not. It's up to you to use the program wisely just like it's up to you to drive safely."

Thank you for the excellent comment. It's a shame this topic was derailed - perhaps it can be put back on track.

[Freddie]

Thanks. I've rewritten that paragraph many times since HotkeyNet went into public beta, trying to make it as clear as possible. For some reason this issue generates a lot more fire than light.

From the way some people get mad about this, you'd think the developers are deliberately trying to fool their users into breaking rules unknowlingly so they get banned. I don't think anyone wants that.

[stealthy45]

For some reason this issue generates a lot more fire than light.

Agreed.

[Tasty]

I'm just waiting for a hater on the blizzard forums to stroll in here and see us arguing with each other about whether what we're doing is legal or not. Can't wait for THAT can'o'worms to open :P

[stealthy45]

I'm just waiting for a hater on the blizzard forums to stroll in here and see us arguing with each other about whether what we're doing is legal or not. Can't wait for THAT can'o'worms to open :P

Dear god no, it's bad enough here :s

[eqjoe]

Thanks. I've rewritten that paragraph many times since HotkeyNet went into public beta, trying to make it as clear as possible. For some reason this issue generates a lot more fire than light.

From the way some people get mad about this, you'd think the developers are deliberately trying to fool their users into breaking rules unknowlingly so they get banned. I don't think anyone wants that.

I think that some of the methods used by devs require delays. Some of these delays are not understood by users and I hope that is the reason for this thread... to discuss the how/why/what and how that affects users. If a sending agent requires a response/event/trigger from a receiving agent, a delay is inevitable. I don't think it is important to know if that delay is a result of some standard protocol or if it is programmatic. (maybe I am wrong here... just MHO).

Freddy, that paragraph can not be more clear....

-j

[Freddie]

I think that some of the methods used by devs require delays. Some of these delays are not understood by users and I hope that is the reason for this thread... to discuss the how/why/what and how that affects users.

I think that's a very useful topic. I wish people could discuss it in good faith, in a respectful way, without getting mad.

If a sending agent requires a response/event/trigger from a receiving agent, a delay is inevitable.

I think it's possible to broadcast mouse clicks to multiple windows on a single PC without delays. From what I've read here, I would guess that InnerSpace and Skarlot's programs do this although I haven't tried them. My own program inserts delays between mouse clicks although from what I've read here they are shorter than Keyclones -- on a typical PC they are 16 ms (about one LCD frame) per window. Some of my users tell me they adjust these delays as high as about 80 ms and at that length (about five frames) they are pretty noticeable, especially with many windows on a single PC.

I can tell you why I chose to add delays in my program instead of using a faster technique. It's because I can think of only one way to do it faster (by hooking WoW's calls to the operating system) and I'm afraid this would conflict with a different rule. Therefore inserting a short delay seemed like the more conservative approach.

Also -- and I suppose this is really the main issue -- I don't think this type of delay violates any rule. Many people seem to take it for granted that Blizzard has a rule against any and all delays in any and all contexts, but I don't think this is right. I think Blizzard is concerned about delays in cases where a delay separates two actions in a single window (or two actions in separate windows where one depends on the other) that are triggered by a single user input. (Of course that kind of hotkey is illegal even without a delay.) But that's not the case here. The type of delay we're discussing here simply causes lag in an otherwise-legal hotkey. Why would that bother Blizzard? It causes no player advantage. It's purely a disadvantage.

Let me emphasize that I'm not sure I'm right -- in fact, I think Blizzard's rules are ambiguous and therefore nobody can be sure they are right -- but this was the reasoning I followed.

Let me also emphasize that I am not accusing other developers who made a different choice of doing anything wrong. As I said a moment ago, I think Blizzard's rules are not clearly stated, and I don't think anyone can be sure what the rules are with regard to these things.

All that a developer can do, imho, is try as hard as possible to give people options that can be used legally and then fully disclose the inner workings of the program so users can make their own decisions. That's what I've tried to do.

I don't think it is important to know if that delay is a result of some standard protocol or if it is programmatic. (maybe I am wrong here... just MHO).

I agree with you. This rule (if it really exists) applies to the function of the program not its implementation.

If Blizzard has a rule against third-party programs that cause delays of this sort, then it makes no difference whether the program is causing the delay by waiting for a call to return or because it's putting itself to sleep for a certain number of milliseconds. The third party program's function -- its action as seen by WoW's client -- is the same in either case.

Freddy, that paragraph can not be more clear....

Heh, thanks. I wasn't kidding -- i must have rewritten that silly little thing 20 times during the eleven months since HotkeyNet's beta started.

[Lax]

Blizzard's problem is with any user programmable delays and out-of-game macros.

why? the answer is obvious. because those are the key components of bot engines, like WoWGlider/ISXWarden/IS

your effort to deflect attention away from blatantly illegal tools is amusing. ok, there is a delay that happens as keyclone waits for the win32 api to return from a call. this is nothing new and the delay has been mentioned by users before. this is not user programmable. therefore, not against the TOS.

BUT, AHK, HKN, and IS all provide the user with programmable delays, looping, conditionals, and out-of-game macro capability (one key producing numerous key hits per wow). these capabilities are obviously illegal.

don't think so? try mentioning it on the wow forums... see how long before the blues pull the thread. any mention of innerspace (especially if you give link to it) will get nuked in a flash. why? maybe because innerspace was at the heart of the ban waves that went through the wow community. did you forget those? do you think noobies know this when they read these forums looking for multi-boxing solutions? no. they believe everything they find here is as legal as it can be... minimal risk.

1. Inner Space is not a "bot engine". That bots "could be created for it" is a function of being an open platform. Inner Space is as much a "bot engine" as Windows is, or Windows Scripting Host. There are a multitude of uses for platforms, including the ability to create programs like yours, the ability to create in-game chat programs like X-Fire, the ability to create in-game interfaces for web browsers, Ventrilo and Teamspeak, and so on.
2. ISXWarden is not a "bot engine" -- it is an extension for Inner Space that would have (if it was still available) hidden certain things from Warden.
3. Who are you to say what Blizzard's problem is? Last I checked you don't speak for them. Is there a post somewhere that says "Keyclone's DELAYED CLICKS OF THE MOUSE are okay because they're not user programmable"?
4. How was Inner Space "at the heart of the ban waves that went through the wow community"? There were indeed a few ban waves over the years that hit some users of Inner Space, but that's because those people were cheating using ISXWarden and ISXWoW. Blizzard can tell the difference between simply using Inner Space, and using ISXWarden+ISXWoW (and again, ISXWarden is not available, and ISXWoW apparently isnt either). Wouldn't anyone besides you insist that the software "at the heart of the ban waves" was Glider?
5. The capabilities of my Logitech G15 are just as "illegal" as the capabilities of the software you're still whining about. As with any solution, it is up to the user to use it properly. Unfortunately some products, such as yours, do not offer the user any such choice -- if the forced delay between each click in keyclone is deemed illicit, your users have no recourse but to stop using the click feature.
6. Much like Freddie's argument about your complaint about "conditionals", Inner Space does not provide the tools to base those conditions on game data. This also has many meanings and different implementations. For example, Keyclone has "conditionals" to implement keymaps. Depending on conditions (i.e. which window), a different key is sent.
7. Poor choice of words: Keyclone has the ability for one key producing numerous key hits per wow. In fact it's standard practice, for FTL setups, etc.
8. What you're suggesting to the world is that any software that is programmable or has any open source portion, is against the Terms of Service to use with WoW by nature of being open, regardless of whether or not it requires additional software to actually do anything illicit. Is that right? In other words, by your argument, you should be banned because to you Keyclone is open source, and you have the capability to use delays, loops, and conditionals, and "these capabilities are obviously illegal".

I think there is obviously more to it than you are willing to admit, and it's a disservice to the readers of these forums to suggest otherwise.

[stealthy45]

Edited by Svpernova09.


No need for these type of comments. As long as this thread stays about intelligent discussion and no name calling or any other mud slinging, the thread will remain open.

[olipcs]

In before keyclone locks the thread and says something pseudo-witty.

realy not neccessary, please keep on topic.
I personaly think its quite interresting to get the opinions/reasons from every actual programmer of an multiboxing software..

..and honestly I don't realy know why this threads must allways end in a big mud-slinging contest between Rob and Lax, with Freddie being the only one who give profound reasoning explaining exactly what he does and why, without dissing others...

Guys over what are you fighting ?
- Customers?
- I honestly don't thing a mud sling contest will help you for this!
-Take me for an example:
I have bought both keyclone (even 2 times) and IS, and used HKN.
-They all have their differences, their strength and their weaknesses.
What program did I end up with?
- The program which suited my personal playstyle and needs most! - So in the end its all about personal needs and finding the right program for you..

...maybe its realy time for a quite neutral in depth review of the three programms, with all their strength, weaknesses and possibilities, to give the enduser a better understanding...