Mouse Broadcasting - Delays violate TOS?

[zanthor]

In the spirit of full disclosure it occured to me today that KeyClone includes programatic delays to facilitate mouse broadcasting.

I'll leave it up to your interpretation...

GM Malkorix posted:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...geNo=1&sid=1#8

Yup, keyclone is fine.

Just make absolutely certain that you're not making more than one keypress (for the purposes of the word 'keypress' this includes a single key press AND release with no delays), or including delays between key-presses with each action.

Essentially, if you could legally create the command as a functional macro within the default user interface, then it should be okay.

Emphasis mine.

[keyclone]

the delays are from the OS, and not of my doing... believe me. i'd rather them not be there (hoping to have the delay removed soon). keep in mind, the delays that are objected to by Blizzard would be programmable delays. this means, delays the user can specify... like 'delay 5' meaning for a script to delay 5 seconds before doing the following action (like the G15 keyboard). this is absolutely not possible with keyclone.

[spoiler]meanwhile, since you bring up delays and in the spirit of full
disclosure, both hotkeynet and innerspace allow scriptable delays
configured by the user (maybe AHK as well, but i don't remember).

they also allow you to trigger more then one key per key hit...

conditionals...

loops (innerspace)...

and a whole host of other tools the user would need in order to make an automated bot engine. (most aggress being innerspace...)

this would be most definitely illegal.



... i didn't open this can o' worms... other mods can delete the thread if they want...[/spoiler]

[algol]

hoping to have the delay removed soon

Very good to hear. Good luck finding a way to speed it up.


As to delays...any program is going to take time to execute. If it happens to take long enough that the computer has time to also adjust to the mouse being repositioned...well, there you go. Essentially one needs to avoid abusing it by doing something like not sending a keypress until 1 GCD after the last, or...I dunno, stuff like that. They don't mean to discourage multiboxing, just botting...and sometimes stuff that would help us helps them more, thus is taboo. Giving the mouse 1ms or whatever to adjust is probably okay, but I would still keep it to a bare minimum if you were using something like an HKN script.

I guess as a rule of thumb, if the delay is less than typical client-server network latency, you're probably safe(ish). But I hardly set policy for Blizzard, I'm just making inferences of what I naively think is reasonable. They could disagree, with or without good reason.

[olipcs]

[quote='keyclone',index.php?page=Thread&postID=1569 04#post156904]meanwhile, since you bring up delays and in the spirit of full
disclosure, both hotkeynet and innerspace allow scriptable delays
configured by the user (maybe AHK as well, but i don't remember).

they also allow you to trigger more then one key per key hit...

conditionals...

loops (innerspace)...

and a whole host of other tools the user would need in order to make an automated bot engine. (most aggress being innerspace...)

this would be most definitely illegal.

... i didn't open this can o' worms... other mods can delete the thread if they want...
[/quote]..jep, they do, and this is mainly because they are not purely developed for wow nor multiboxing at all!
And personaly i'm absolutly fine with it, because in the end its always the user who decides which software he uses, with what features...
..and as everybody here can research what is ok with the ToS and what not, and for HotKeyNet there is also a big text about [url='http://hotkeynet.com/wow/wow-rules.html']what to use and how to be in the terms of wow[/url] i'm absolutly am fine with using it.

For me its the following tradeoff: I like using HKN because of the controll it gives to me, what to send to whom with what trigger, and as I'm the one in control, I'm also the one responsible for my actions...

Honestly I don't know why you come up with the hole topic again and again?

[spoiler]- Don't understand me wrong, I think you have develeoped a realy great product for the mainstream-multiboxer and you have done quite a lot for the community.
I even have two active keyclone licences and loved it at first.
But then Deceased/Pocalypse shared their thoughts about the ftl-setup, which heavily relies on hotstrings/keymaps.
And there for me the point started where keyclone lost its 'glory' a bit, because defining keymaps/hotstring in keyclone is not realy intuitive and I couldn't do everythink i wanted.
(like differentiate between ingoing and outgoing hotstrings, for example).

Another big point of the hole keymapping thing was, that as I tried to give a lot of support for new users of the ftl, i had to try to 'debug' their keymaps/hotstrings, which i found quite hard in keyclone.

-The turning point for me was, when Anemo posted a first version of the ftl using hotkeynet.
I'll looked at the script and imidiatly loved it.
Mainly because, as i'm a programmer myself, i instinctly saw the possibilities i could do with such scripts, and almost instinctly i felt, like i'm the one who is in control.
Another big plus for me was, that the 'API' HKN uses is very well documented, and there was a lot of samples/infos on its own forum, so that the transition-phase was quite short (under an hour), and i had all the features i used in keyclone running in hotkeynet.

..jeah, well, this was my keyclone/hkn story...

-i know i derailed the thread a bit (sorry!) but i just wanted to say, that for some users there are good reasons to use one or the other...

Basicly meaning:
You want a simple to setup keybroadcaster => use keyclone
You want a hotkey/keymap-specalist, with beeing in 'controll' through scripts => use hotkeynet
You want real fast pip and scripting => use IS[/spoiler]

[stealthy45]

I'm all for open discussion and disclosure, but if it becomes X vs Y I'm nuking this thread from orbit.

Killing it with fire, as it were?

Keyclone - yes, InnerSpace has scripting capabilities, i.e. conditional loops, delays, etc. Whether or not a user makes use of that in a way that would break the ToS is up to them. The presence of the capability to do something does not mean people will take advantage of it.
We've had x64 CPUs for how many years before the mainstream finally began shifting towards 64-bit OSes?

How long are these "os" delays in Keyclone?

[pengwynman]

How long are these "os" delays in Keyclone?

when i was trying out mouse passing, it would take about 3-5 seconds total for the mouse to click on every window.

[RobinGBrown]

In the spirit of full disclosure it occured to me today that KeyClone includes programatic delays to facilitate mouse broadcasting.

I'll leave it up to your interpretation...

So the guy who has been promoting a rival product to Keyclone tries to blow smoke by making up a story about the legality of it...

This is a bullshit post to try and draw attention to the other product.

Also you should take care to define your terms - a 'programatic delay' is a delay that you can program in, keyclone has no such delays - and if you think there is one then please show me how to do it.

As far as I know the rival product has plenty of ability to program in keystrokes and all manner of naughtiness that could get you banned

[elsegundo]

so GM guy says Keyclone is fine.


OK! :thumbsup:

[zanthor]

So the guy who has been promoting a rival product to Keyclone tries to blow smoke by making up a story about the legality of it...

This is a bullshit post to try and draw attention to the other product

I've been a solid supporter and promoter of most software solutions for multiboxing discussed here. I've made it a point to understand their strengths, weaknesses, abilities, and to communicate to other users what those are. I've also made it a point to have more than a passing knowledge of hardware solutions and the abilities they offer. I'm passionate about my hobby, I'm knowledgable, and I'm open minded about potential solutions.

Also you should take care to define your terms - a 'programatic delay' is a delay that you can program in, keyclone has no such delays - and if you think there is one then please show me how to do it.

You can call a frog a duck, but when you toss him off the top of a tall building, he's still going to become a gooyey red spot on the concrete below. Blizzard doesn't care if the delay is something you control, or something someone else controls, if you run an application that has a delay in it, you are violating the TOS and risking banning. The nature of the delay on the clicks KeyClone broadcasts does not seem to be a windows issue to me - it seems to be a byproduct of a work around that KeyClone had to impliment to make mouse broadcasting work. The intention is not to harm the user or delay anything, but the general assumption new users have is that KeyClone is 100% OK because blizzard stated that a VERY early VERY primative version of KeyClone was legitimate.

As far as I know the rival product has plenty of ability to program in keystrokes and all manner of naughtiness that could get you banned

Several other products have this ability, thats been established, no ones arguing with this fact.

so GM guy says Keyclone is fine.


OK! :thumbsup:

Read the link, he's saying that KeyClones fine, he's saying pauses are not, KeyClone pauses to broadcast mice clicks, they happen over a spread of about 2-3 seconds for 5 clients... I'm not saying it WILL get you banned, but I'm saying it SHOULD be something people are aware of. Especially since the feature in it's current state is now getting a lot of press from other users. Assuming Rob gets the pause removed, then all is back to normal and KeyClone regains it's status as the least likely to let something naughty happen.

[pengwynman]

personally, i find keyclone's click passer to be waay too slow to use during combat, it's actually much faster for me to just quickly click in each window than wait for the cursor to make its rounds.
i think the main question here was is there any sort of delay programmed in, which i believe has been answered with a firm No. it's just slow :P