Sharp skill curve adding a tank to the mix?

[Vyndree]

I'd also disagree on the "spam button" idea...

Even with my prot paladin, I ended up being a "clicker" for seals/judgements and only really put "Holy Shield" on my spam button.

On my shammies, I have CTRL+1 through CTRL+6 set for defensive totems (water, earth, air, tremor, groundings, totemic recall, poison/disease). I also have SHIFT+2 through SHIFT+6 set to heals (quick emergency heals, healing wave, lesser healing wave, chain heal specific target, AoE heal - chain heal off "buddy", GotN). Lastly, I have 1-7 (plus SHIFT+1) for my DPS spells (lightning bolt, PvP damage shocks -- FS on rotation, PvE damage shocks/interrupt -- all ES, chain lightning, searing totem, magma totem, fire nova totem, flame shock -- mostly for stealthers, purge).

And that was just my leveling bindings, and doesn't count the bindings for buffs/mounting that I put on my xkeys.

Take a look at how I end up being a "tank clicker" here: http://www.gamevee.com/viewVideo/Wor...iboxing/309646


I loathe excessive use of castsequences or even castrandom. They're useful in certain places, but IMO the spirit of multiboxing IS the multi-tasking. The only real times I use /castsequence is something along the lines of:
/castsequence reset=12/target Curse of Agony, null
(prevents me from having to CoA twice -- not only a waste of mana, but CoA is backloaded -- in case one char was incapacitated or barely out-of-range and needed to recast)

/castrandom is completely unreliable for tanking anything that can get you crit or crushed. The only thing I /castrandom are my DPS trinkets.

Removing that level of control from your characters makes you less likely to be able to recover from new, unprecedented situations. When someone gets the jump on me in a way I haven't anticipated, I still have a high chance of success because I, too, can be dynamic about my spell choices and actions.

[Bigfish]

I loathe excessive use of castsequences or even castrandom. They're useful in certain places, but IMO the spirit of multiboxing IS the multi-tasking. The only real times I use /castsequence is something along the lines of:
/castsequence reset=12/target Curse of Agony, null

Removing that level of control from your characters makes you less likely to be able to recover from new, unprecedented situations. When someone gets the jump on me in a way I haven't anticipated, I still have a high chance of success because I, too, can be dynamic about my spell choices and actions.

I don't understand. Its not like you can't be dynamic while having a castsequence for the 90% of the times when your hitting the same abilities in the same order, particularly for those of us running multiple classes. Personally, I take a bit of pride in the fact that my characters run themselves pretty darn efficiently for pressing 2 over and over.

[Turenn]

In PvE the key is to make it as simple as possible. Too many buttons to tap while tanking, healing and DPSing is going to screw you up more than having a castseqence or castrandom marco doing most of the work. In PvE getting the boss down is the goal, nothing else.


"I loathe excessive use of castsequences or even castrandom. They're useful in certain places, but IMO the spirit of multiboxing IS the multi-tasking."

"Vyndree"

^^ PRICELESS!

[ss2]

With a paladin/shamans/moonkin I tank and dps with 3 keys(assist, follow, attacksequence) and the click of avenger's shield. I found adding a dedicated healer more complicated than tanking and dps'ing combined; it took up my entire numberpad and then some to use efficiantly.

[elsegundo]

i would only put holy shield and hammer of the righteous in a castrandom macro. the other spells are a bit too situational, even consecration, to add to that macro.

i have /startattack with hammer of wrath.
i have consecrate and avenger's shield on modifier. i find this really helpful if i see some passerby that i also want to add to the "being tanked" group. consecrate costs a lot of mana so i dont want to constantly spam it, even with awesome mana regen.
my judgments are based on modifiers as well as seals.
i think thats it. all my other pally abilities are clicked as they are not as time-sensitive as my battle abilities.

[Ualaa]

Until you have enough defense to be crit immune, that is a threat.
In Wrath, a mob has to exceed your level by 4 or more to land a crushing blow.
The highest mobs in the game are bosses which are considered 83rd - at 80th you'll never receive a Crushing Blow.

So far I have only one mixed group.
I've broken my dps down to Opening Moves and Spamming Moves.
My opening moves is a cast sequence, where the paladin does the first three moves (Seal, Avenger's Strike, Judge Wisdom).
Every other character passes on the first two keypresses and does a Dot type effect on the third.
If its a tougher opponent, this key is two more dot/debuff type effects for other toons but nothing for the pally.

My other dps key, is the spammable dps mash for other toons, and a basic cast random for the paladin.
My druid, who heals for this team will Faerie Fire on the initial debuff/dot button (and moonfire/insect swarm if I press it two more times).
The druid has a castsequence reset=combat !Wrath in the dps button, so she helps to kill trash but has no GCD's in the way of her heals.

Everyone has a set up that works for them, it just takes a while to learn it.
You'll learn yours.
Plus, you can borrow from what works for others, to tweak and improve your set up over time.

[Vyndree]

I don't understand. Its not like you can't be dynamic while having a castsequence for the 90% of the times when your hitting the same abilities in the same order, particularly for those of us running multiple classes.

I think you misunderstand my definition of "dynamic".

For example:
Let's say a person is running a moonkin.
Let's say they decide to do a common /castrandom Wrath, Starfire (or even castsequence)
Let's say they come upon a mob that is immune to Nature. Can they adapt? Perhaps, depending on if they get lucky with the /castrandom or if the mob doesn't hit too hard or how much they have to DPS to kill it...
Let's say they come upon a mob that is immune to Arcane. Can they adapt? Perhaps, depending on if they get lucky with the /castrandom or if the mob doesn't hit too hard or how much they have to DPS to kill it...
Let's say they come upon a mob that is magic-immune. Can they adapt? Did they bother to bind other abilities as simple as /startattack and/or catform and catform's various DPS buttons?

Exacerbate the problem, add a mage:
Does the mage need to sheep? Is the boomkin alt prepared not to accidentally break the sheep?
Does the mage need to interrupt/silence?
Does the mage need to frostnova?

Exacerbate the problem more, add a priest:
Can the priest heal a specific target at a moment's notice?
Can the priest use AoE fear?
Can the priest AoE heal without accidentally /castrandom or /castsequencing Holy Nova such that they don't break the mage's sheep?


Keep in mind -- people here are talking about having 1 button to end all buttons. I was a bit obscure having not specifically called that out as what I was addressing. I'm talking about a 1-button castsequence/castrandom spam, and added a little personal opinion about what sort of castsequences I use/don't use.

Having a /castsequence "i'm doing easysauce content that I outnumber/outgear/outlevel" to mash when fighting a brainlessly easy opponent is no problem (though I don't do so, personally). However, assuming that one button will fit all of your needs is a bit of a stretch -- interrupts, cc, not breaking cc, tanking, healing, totems, buffs... those all deserve adequate attention.

By "dynamic" I'm saying "I can adapt to whatever the world throws at me". Nature immune mob? Yea, I bound shocks that aren't in the nature school. Spellcaster mob? I've got an interrupt button. Groundings too. Fearbomb mob? I can tremor, and I've got trinkets bound. Mana running low? Manatide/watershield/manaspring baby!

That's dynamic.

/castsequence [nocombat] Healing Stream Totem, Wrath of Air totem, Tremor Totem, Searing Totem, Water Shield, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt
/castrandom [combat] Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning

THIS is not dynamic.

How can you interrupt?
How can you deal with nature immune mobs?
How can you deal with spells that need to be grounded?
How can you deal with not hitting CCed targets with your CL or Searing?

How do you do ANYTHING but that rotation?

The point is, saying that "You only need ONE button on a /castsequence" is oversimplification. It's more appropriately "You only need ONE spam button for leveling, since you outnumber almost every quest encounter anyway" or "You most likely will be pressing a spammable DPS button".

ONE button does not rule all. ONE button can be used more OFTEN than others, but it doesn't mean the others aren't useful or necessary.

Personally, I take a bit of pride in the fact that my characters run themselves pretty darn efficiently for pressing 2 over and over.

That's fine, it's why I used the phrase "IMO".

Efficiency is relative. Is a castsequence efficient in raids? Depends on the class and how well they fit into a rotation. Is efficiency your ability to react to PvP situations where the same thing almost never happens twice? Certainly. Is efficiency the ease at which you can power through quests and level because you have 5x the firepower designed for the encounter? Sure, but personally I still think you can do that without relying totally on /castsequences.

/castsequences are not efficient for DPS that cannot easily be put into a reliable sequence. They're also unreliable because "reset=12" does not mean "reset 12 seconds from the first time I pushed the button". It means "reset 12 seconds from the LAST time I pushed the button" -- and that means if I have 3 DoTs with different timers, it's not efficient DPS uptime. If I have 3 DoTs, pressed the button once, ran around for a little bit, and pressed the button once more, my timers will be "off" so that, if I wanted to skip DoT #3 and go straight back to refresh DoT #1, I can't.

That's what I meant by dynamic.

EDIT: This post gives some more good information about why castsequences are not ideal for maximizing DPS. For mixed groups it may be a necessary evil, but still applicable on a per-character basis.
http://dual-boxing.com/forums/index....932#post152932

Extra healing, moving around, changing targets, all make long castsequences that are cooldown based a pain. All mostly upsetting the cooldowns so much it's not worth it. The only reason castsequences seems good for is for when you get in that situation when you do still have thge cd's and need to totally nuke as much as possible, or a few fights where you do indeed not have to heal/move. Patchwerk in naxx for example. Or when testing dps. But with the vast amount of various tactics needed for pretty much all five man and the lack of hp on trash causes castsequences for us to be more of a pain then to be effective.

/castrandom is as close to effective as it will get, but even then you would stumble upon problems with changing targets, blowing flameshock cd's on low targets and lava bursts on flameshockless targets. The problems come with the AI needed to apply flameshock at the proper targets and the timing on the lava bursts.

(emphasis mine)

[Duese]

I will interject with a slightly different opinion. While it is neccessary to have the ability to adapt, the frequency of that need may be such that you can script it. For instance, using AHK, you could have a flag that says "Nature Immune Mob". When you turn that flag on (however you want to do it, most likely *yet another* key bind), then it will only cast the non-nature spells. However, the nice thing about this is that if something does come along that has some sort of immunity, you can turn the "flag" on, then still press your same DPS button that has been rerouted to a different keybind.

I am currently running a simple two tank setup for lvl'ing to 80, but have done up to and including 5 boxing. Pally tank is by far going to be the easiest and for the sole reason that even if you lose facing on a target mob, your consecrate will still keep the threat ticking without your weapon even swinging. Thunderclap, even though it's pushing 500-600 damage for my warrior to all the surrounding, still doesn't compare to the 1000+ total damage of a consecrate with the +90% threat gen of righteous fury. I'm not using exact numbers nor theorycrafting, just using my experience. Pally's have it such ezmode it's not even funny.

As far as my keybinds go, I sort of separate them out by AoE/Non and High Mp/Low Mp. I'm still working out my 5 box setup. I did the whole "keybind everything" and completely forgot where all my keys were when I needed them. I have a few ways I am going to try working around that though when I get back to them.

[Vyndree]

I will interject with a slightly different opinion. While it is neccessary to have the ability to adapt, the frequency of that need may be such that you can script it. For instance, using AHK, you could have a flag that says "Nature Immune Mob". When you turn that flag on (however you want to do it, most likely *yet another* key bind), then it will only cast the non-nature spells. However, the nice thing about this is that if something does come along that has some sort of immunity, you can turn the "flag" on, then still press your same DPS button that has been rerouted to a different keybind.

That's still TWO macros.

I think the argument that "one size fits all" still stands -- you can't just have one. Even if you use one button 90% of the time (which I said was fine -- it's just not my style but that's personal opinion), you STILL need those "backup buttons" for the last 10%. You can't shove everything into ONE macro.

Example:
You can use a "spam button" for 90% of your time if you're out in the world questing.
World PvP happens.
You can either have prepared for that 10% and send them packing, or you can sit there for an hour while they teabag you in a corpse camp because you weren't prepared and all you had was your spammable dps buttons.

True story. Though it does require that you're PvP flagged/PvP server.

[Bigfish]

For example:
Let's say a person is running a moonkin.
Let's say they decide to do a common /castrandom Wrath, Starfire (or even castsequence)
Let's say they come upon a mob that is immune to Nature. Can they adapt? Perhaps, depending on if they get lucky with the /castrandom or if the mob doesn't hit too hard or how much they have to DPS to kill it...
Let's say they come upon a mob that is immune to Arcane. Can they adapt? Perhaps, depending on if they get lucky with the /castrandom or if the mob doesn't hit too hard or how much they have to DPS to kill it...
Let's say they come upon a mob that is magic-immune. Can they adapt? Did they bother to bind other abilities as simple as /startattack and/or catform and catform's various DPS buttons?

Exacerbate the problem, add a mage:
Does the mage need to sheep? Is the boomkin alt prepared not to accidentally break the sheep?
Does the mage need to interrupt/silence?
Does the mage need to frostnova?

Exacerbate the problem more, add a priest:
Can the priest heal a specific target at a moment's notice?
Can the priest use AoE fear?
Can the priest AoE heal without accidentally /castrandom or /castsequencing Holy Nova such that they don't break the mage's sheep?


Keep in mind -- people here are talking about having 1 button to end all buttons. I was a bit obscure having not specifically called that out as what I was addressing. I'm talking about a 1-button castsequence/castrandom spam, and added a little personal opinion about what sort of castsequences I use/don't use.

Having a /castsequence "i'm doing easysauce content that I outnumber/outgear/outlevel" to mash when fighting a brainlessly easy opponent is no problem (though I don't do so, personally). However, assuming that one button will fit all of your needs is a bit of a stretch -- interrupts, cc, not breaking cc, tanking, healing, totems, buffs... those all deserve adequate attention.

By "dynamic" I'm saying "I can adapt to whatever the world throws at me". Nature immune mob? Yea, I bound shocks that aren't in the nature school. Spellcaster mob? I've got an interrupt button. Groundings too. Fearbomb mob? I can tremor, and I've got trinkets bound. Mana running low? Manatide/watershield/manaspring baby!

That's dynamic.

Ok, let me explain where I'm coming from. I run one of every class. Some are more spell intense than others, and the fact that I have one macro that I largely spam doesn't restrict me from keeping interupts, or CC (not that CC has EVER been important) or healing individual characters. Suffice it to say, if something needs done, I can do it at the push of a button. That said, I have two options with my key bindings: I can either bind most abilitites to an individual key, which works fine if everyone was the same class. Problem is, I have a tank, a healer, and 3 seperate dps who all potentially funtion much differently from each other. I could be looking at weaving shots with my hunter, putting up DoTs with a lock, and spamming spells on my mage. Alternatively, I could we chopping away with my rogue, warrior, and throw in a DoT class for fun. All said classes function fundamentally differently, which leaves me the choice of pressing a dozen different keys, or I can make them work a rotation for their general DPS purposes. Now, as much fun as wasting half my potential abilities sounds, I'd rather have an intelligent cast rotation working that maximizes dps and uses all applicable abilites.

Bottom line, I'm not controling a bunch of clones whose sole purpose is to kill things through shear force of numbers. I want each character to be played smart and to their potential. Any castsequence I use on my characters is one I gladly use in an individual capacity, because there is no point in trying to manage all your DoTs and cool downs by hand when you can do it with a macro that isn't going to forget to push a button or lose track of how many seconds its been since you applied X debuff.

Specific instances of elemental immune mobs rarely come up nowadays, and yes, they can be dealt with rather easily by a quick switch of a button.

ONE button does not rule all. ONE button can be used more OFTEN than others, but it doesn't mean the others aren't useful or necessary.

Well then we agree. One button doesn't rule all, but its certainly easier to have a mage that casts intelligently as opposed to spamming Fireball. Makes more sense to me have my mage put up her scorches, spam fireballs and fireblasts, and then unleash a Pyroblast with a high statistical potential to be instant cast instead of trying to manage her and 9 other classes' abilities individually. Makes more sense for my Warlock to keep her dots up in an intelligent manner than trying to eyeball 3 lines of debuffs and micro manage that things. Makes more sense for my warrior to dump her rage than to sit on it at 100 because I was too busy managing everyone else to hit her buttons. And all with one button instead of 4 or 5.

In a situation where you've got upwards of 10 classes, that's a LOT of stimuli and responses that need managed, and the only differences I see in doing it manually versus macroed is difficulty and some sort of idealistic dislike for castsequence and castrandom.

Efficiency is relative. Is a castsequence efficient in raids? Depends on the class and how well they fit into a rotation. Is efficiency your ability to react to PvP situations where the same thing almost never happens twice? Certainly. Is efficiency the ease at which you can power through quests and level because you have 5x the firepower designed for the encounter? Sure, but personally I still think you can do that without relying totally on /castsequences.

/castsequences are not efficient for DPS that cannot easily be put into a reliable sequence. They're also unreliable because "reset=12" does not mean "reset 12 seconds from the first time I pushed the button". It means "reset 12 seconds from the LAST time I pushed the button" -- and that means if I have 3 DoTs with different timers, it's not efficient DPS uptime. If I have 3 DoTs, pressed the button once, ran around for a little bit, and pressed the button once more, my timers will be "off" so that, if I wanted to skip DoT #3 and go straight back to refresh DoT #1, I can't.

That's what I meant by dynamic.

Situational efficiency does indeead change, and is a scenario entirely suited to the player at hand. I don't PvP much, so I don't consider it too much when I write my macros. If I ever do get back in to PvP, I'll invariably have to adjust things, but a castsequence/random will still be my primary form of ability utilization. Now I don't know what impression you are operating under, but when you ask "Well what if you want to do this?" my reponse will usually be "Well why would I want to?" The macros I write aren't simply a matter of being too lazy to press a few extra buttons, its a matter of carefully calculated spell rotations that extend anywhere from 30 to 60 seconds. If something happens that delays the macro, its not a big deal since I could, theoretically, start the macro at any point during the sequence and in a matter of seconds be operating at on or near the same level as though the macro had started over. (Granted, the one exception to this I've come across is conflagrate)

At this point, every class can operate on an efficient /castsequence if you know what rotation you should be using. The only classes I DON'T have one set up on are my Paladin and Warrior, and thats only because I've found /castrandom to be more effective for them.

Checking the link now.

Edit: Checked the link. I'm not convinced. For elemental shamans? Probably. But then, elemental shamans have relatively few spells and are a natural disadvantage with getting Lava Burst to fire off at just the right moment, much like the problem I encountered with Conflagrate on my Warlock. When you have spells that are excessively timing based, a delay by any number of seconds can and will throw off your DPS. But that's a matter of a spell rotation I haven't even looked at or leveled in to. Will a cast sequence ever be as efficient as a single boxer driving the character? No, but the objective isn't to perfectly immitate, it is to achieve a reasonable facsimile and get as close as possible with a minimal amount of attention put in to it. At this point, my castsequences out perform actual pleyers. Not the best of them, but the type you find in PuGs, and honestly that's good enough for me.