Has Warden Gone Too Far? I think so. Warden = Rootkit

[Hippieman]

So, from *my* point of view, wether or not the EULA and/or ToA is valid at all, can be questioned, also because it's something you have to agree with AFTER you've purchused the game.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html

YOU SHOULD CAREFULLY READ THE FOLLOWING WORLD OF WARCRAFT TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT (THE "TERMS OF USE" OR "AGREEMENT"). IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH ALL OF THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU MUST CLICK "REJECT." IF YOU REJECT THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER FIRST PURCHASING THE WORLD OF WARCRAFT SOFTWARE, YOU MAY CALL (800)757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE. ONCE YOU AGREE TO THE TERMS OF USE AND THE END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT (EULA), YOU WILL NO LONGER BE ELIGIBLE FOR A REFUND.

Now that's just proving *I* didn't read it :P Curse blizzard and them covering all of their bases! (and pardon the slight wander off-topic)

[thinus]

tldr version:

Suvega: If you want to know what warden is looking at do so and so.

Thinus: But noone does so and so.

Zaelar: Then start doing so and so.

How many of the 9 million WoW subscribers read the ToS/EULA every time?
How many of the 9 million WoW subscribers understands what Warden is doing or are able to monitor what Warden is doing?

This is why you have consumer protection laws. This is why you should be thankful for paranoid people as they provide a layer of protection you don't even seem to be aware of.

---

Why is their approach self defeating? We introduce highly tedious and repetitive mechanisms to achieve goals, we just can't understand why people macro!

We introduce a currency of gold and the way to earn gold is to do tedious and repetitive tasks, we just can't understand why people buy gold!

For a lot of people we have gotten to the point where they have a skeleton gaming machine where they don't care what is accessed because there is nothing sensitive on it. You think this is acceptable? Why don't all games just get developed for consoles and we scrap PC games completely.

And people keep saying "if you don't like it don't play". The same with my cinema example. Your immediate response is then don't go. I like the cinema and I would like to keep going to the cinema and I would REALLY like it if there are consumer laws that protect my rights and prevent big corporations from doing anything they like to protect their own interests.

MMORPGs I played all had the same repetitive model, the "grind". All of them had farmers / gold sellers / leveling services. The model hasn't changed much since the first MUD Lars Pensk wrote. So now we are in a situation where gaming companies feel the need to install scanning software on their clients' machines to combat automation of highly repetive tasks to meet a market created because people with real money don't want to spend endless hours doing those repetitive tasks.

Some guy in the US that is running a 100 account bot farm will now have to move his operation to a 3rd world country and cut his profits to employ 100 people for pitiful wages. Yes, we are really making inroads into eliminating botting, aren't we?

[Vyndree]

And people keep saying "if you don't like it don't play". The same with my cinema example. Your immediate response is then don't go. I like the cinema and I would like to keep going to the cinema and I would REALLY like it if there are consumer laws that protect my rights and prevent big corporations from doing anything they like to protect their own interests.

I have a product/service I would like to sell. It's a subscription based service, and it took alot of hard work to create it. Sure, it has problems -- every product isn't perfect for everyone - but my main goal is to gain income from the subscription fees.

A portion of my consumers are ruining my income by devaluing my product by automating human behavior. This will make my human consumers not want to continue subscribing, and the people automating are gaining income from the misuse of my product.

I would REALLY like it if there were agreements that protect my rights and prevent botters from doing anything they like to protect their own interests.

Too bad nobody ever reads my EULA before they click "accept".

I mean, if there are consumer laws to protect their rights, and I'm overstepping my bounds, the consumers could sue me. But they haven't... I wonder why...

[Suvega]

Not to pain a pain in the arse but oh the art of Fisking let me try thee aswell.

As someone else already pointed out they are certainly going about it in the most complicated and self defeating way possible.

Self defeating? How? By upsetting security 'enthusiasts' and bot creaters? Who else cares?

Who even reads the EULA? Just because they put something in the EULA does not make it legally binding.

Actually, it does.
Reference - http://www.us-cert.gov/reading_room/EULA.pdf
Hint: Read "Why EULA's are important"

I read it differently. There are 318 different versions detected so far. With the current functionality they can "inject" a new version anytime they want to.

As stated by others, they could always change warden on the fly. The only difference is that they have different versions running concurently, something which wasn't done before.

The argument is that it does not just present problems to bot writers but to anyone who actually wants to verify that each of these versions are "safe".

If you're concerned, monitor the warden process for which system calls it makes. If it does something shady, report it online and watch the backlash to Blizzard become huge. Not to mention court cases. Blizzard has ALWAYS had the ability to f' with your system, however it is VERY disadvantageous for them to do so.

The ONLY thing this change does it make it take longer to PREDICT what it is going to do. You can still SEE what it does.

I would like entertainment providers to provide entertainment without me having to worry about potential security issues. Would you like to go to the cinema if they made you walk through metal detectors and pawed through anything you carried with you to check for hidden cameras etc?

It is their right to do so. They already spy on you with infared cameras to try to detect you stealing their work.

Think: If everyone hated the searches enough that they wouldn't go, cinemas would have to change to keep customers.

You're applying a "I don't like it, but I don't have the self-restraint to do something about it" mentality that plagues the players/people.

Currently the "layman" implicitly trusts Warden and probably does not even know what it is or what it does. Personally I really hate the fact that a process running on my machine can look at other processes without my permission. I believe that kind of process rights should be easily manageable at O/S level.

Any process can veiw another... in XP I believe.
Furthermore, find an OS that doesn't allow process scanning.
This is not a Blizz problem, it’s an OS feature request.

If I want to do internet banking I should be able to open my browser and do my banking without having to worry about which other processes are running on my machine. But MS seems more interested in giving us transparent buttons with rounded edges.

Buy vista, it fixes this concern with trusted vs untrusted applcations. When an untrusted application tries to perform something that only a trusted can do, the user is prompted to verify.
However the 'layman' doesn't care as you point out. Which is why most people hate the pop-up boxes, and usually disable them manually. However for paranoid people like yourself, it would be a welcome addition I suppose.

IE7 even mentions “hey, you’re visiting an untrusted zone”, but usually people click the “Don’t prompt me again” box and click OK, eliminating this saftey guard.

As to "botting", their whole game design is suited to it. Repetition, repetition, repetition, ad nauseum. I quit 2 end game raiding characters because that is all end game raiding is about. Same instances, same bosses, again and again and again to gear a raid. Rinse, repeat.

If you don't like the game don't play it. Many many things are good for a comptuer to do, but are considered cheating none-the-less.

Online poker for example? Perfect for computer AI players, however online poker uses the same type of measures blizzard does to stop said botting. However I don't think you would complain about poker...

Instead of looking at things they can do server side they prefer to outsource detection technology that runs on the client and can be a potential security risk.

Server side can only go so far, as has been said before. Honestly the only people who care about the security precautions are paranoid security 'enthusiasts', and bot creaters.

Instead of addressing the in-game mechanics that make botting possible or the reason that a gold buying market exists we will instead install very complicated software that communicates with our servers and gathers information from other running processes or installed applications on your machine and encrypt whatever information we are sending.

Daily quests are directly targeted for removing gold farming companies.
1hr delays in mail are directly tagetted for removing gold farming.
/reportspam is directly targetted at helping users help patrol gold spam.

We will pour a lot of money into developing this tool that will sit on your machine checking if you are cheating or not while we will continue employing a skeleton staff of GMs with an average response time measured in hours, sometimes days, that never responds in time to catch botters in the act.

You have no data to support that GM's don't catch botters in action. Quite the opposite is true if you look at several botting program forums. They use tactics such as:
- Moving character far distances to see if it recovers
- Making mobes evade
- Moving mobs underground to see if they are still targetted
- Etc

Even moreso botters have suspicion that bans are actually delayed on purpose to make a big noise in botting community – hence the “Ban Hammer” or “Ban Waves” where individual bans are postponed so they can monitor your other botting activities and catch you in the act of botting 10 accounts rather than insta-banning just one

Furthermore Blizz has made mistakes banning Linux users thinking they were bots. It may be advantageous to the EULA-abiding consumer that they DO delay so that they can make sure they’re not making a mistake.

How many dual-boxers have been whispered with “Botter!” or “Hacker!”? Would you like a GM to have the ability to insta-ban you based on opinion from circumstancial server data; without having hard data to back it up simply because they don’t understand what dual-boxing is? Has anyone had to deal with the no-phone-number, 1-week email response time account administration to get their account back?

Am I concerned about Warden being a security risk? Not really, but it is the paranoid that ensures we enjoy the freedom that we do and I don't dismiss them out of hand.

I love the analogy that someone used above, something like "Having hackers and botters 'ensuring' security in a system is the same as theifs ensuring security at a retail establishment"

You can say that Blizzard just put a retina scan on all of its doors, and the theifs are spreading rumors that these iris scans could burn your eyeballs! zomg.

I would REALLY like it if there are consumer laws that protect my rights and prevent big corporations from doing anything they like to protect their own interests.

You're derailing the topic. Not to mention consumer protections laws were created to stop scams, injury, and unavoidable unknown consequences. You know what you're accepting, as you have accepted the TOS. A Legally binding agreement.

MMORPGs I played all had the same repetitive model, the "grind". All of them had farmers / gold sellers / leveling services. The model hasn't changed much since the first MUD Lars Pensk wrote. So now we are in a situation where gaming companies feel the need to install scanning software on their clients' machines to combat automation of highly repetive tasks to meet a market created because people with real money don't want to spend endless hours doing those repetitive tasks.

Unlike you, I enjoy the game enough to play. If you honestly dislike the games so much, then don't play them. Again you present the mindless "I don't like it, but I lack self-restraint to stop myself" model.

Lastly:

Some guy in the US that is running a 100 account bot farm will now have to move his operation to a 3rd world country and cut his profits to employ 100 people for pitiful wages. Yes, we are really making inroads into eliminating botting, aren't we?

Before we even get into the (very offtopic) subject of globalization, outsourcing, and its either positive or negative consequences...
(Recommend reading "The world if flat", great read on the subject)

Blizzard, HAS and will continue to change its gaming model to better suite the concerns players have. Instead of mindlessly grinding primals, you can select from a multitude of fun, interesting, and even lore driven daily quests.

[Vyndree]

How many of the 9 million WoW subscribers read the ToS/EULA every time?
How many of the 9 million WoW subscribers understands what Warden is doing or are able to monitor what Warden is doing?

On a total off-note... Is this blizzard's problem? Or the lazy consumer's?

I mean, it's not like you have to scroll down to the bottom and click "I accept" both the ToU and the EULA EVERY SINGLE TIME there's a patch. *rolleyes*

It's just so inconvenient to actually read documents before you sign a legally binding agreement.

Do these same 9 million customers actually READ their taxes before signing the form?
Do these same 9 million customers actually READ their rental agreements?
What about their work contracts?
Divorce agreements?

Blizzard has clearly been hiding its rules and regulations from the mass player base. The sneaky bastages.

[thinus]

And people keep saying "if you don't like it don't play". The same with my cinema example. Your immediate response is then don't go. I like the cinema and I would like to keep going to the cinema and I would REALLY like it if there are consumer laws that protect my rights and prevent big corporations from doing anything they like to protect their own interests.

I have a product/service I would like to sell. It's a subscription based service, and it took alot of hard work to create it. Sure, it has problems -- every product isn't perfect for everyone - but my main goal is to gain income from the subscription fees.

A portion of my consumers are ruining my income by devaluing my product by automating human behavior. This will make my human consumers not want to continue subscribing, and the people automating are gaining income from the misuse of my product.

Oh right, how many people have quit because of botting opposed to the amount of people that buy gold / characters or to the amount of bot accounts that actually pay a subscribtion. Those subscribtion numbers really plumetted recently because of all the botting, didn't it?

And show me the effectivity figures of Warden. How many botters / gold sellers has it put out of business? How many accounts have been banned directly due to Warden? Show me the percentage of botters that are directly impacted by Warden.

A lot of botting is also not for commercial gain but really people just automating repetitive tasks.

The *REAL* problem is not botting, the problem is gold selling and farming. Botting is a side effect and easily circumvented by gold sellers and farmers and it is immensely difficult to detect as farming is essentially a core design pattern for them.

I would REALLY like it if there were agreements that protect my rights and prevent botters from doing anything they like to protect their own interests.

Funny how you don't even mention the normal legitimate consumer. They have no rights apparently. Woohoo!

Too bad nobody ever reads my EULA before they click "accept".

They don't care if you read it or not. The only reason for its existence is to protect themselves.

I mean, if there are consumer laws to protect their rights, and I'm overstepping my bounds, the consumers could sue me. But they haven't... I wonder why...

You don't get it at all, do you? There is nothing to sue over as no real loss has occured yet. People are concerned about the *potential* for loss. I would prefer not to have software on my machine that scans my machine and then sends encrypted information out. In addition, that software can be remotely replaced without my knowledge. The *potential* for privacy violations should be very evident.

[thinus]

How many of the 9 million WoW subscribers read the ToS/EULA every time?
How many of the 9 million WoW subscribers understands what Warden is doing or are able to monitor what Warden is doing?

On a total off-note... Is this blizzard's problem? Or the lazy consumer's?

I mean, it's not like you have to scroll down to the bottom and click "I accept" both the ToU and the EULA EVERY SINGLE TIME there's a patch. *rolleyes*

It's just so inconvenient to actually read documents before you sign a legally binding agreement.

Do these same 9 million customers actually READ their taxes before signing the form?
Do these same 9 million customers actually READ their rental agreements?
What about their work contracts?
Divorce agreements?

Blizzard has clearly been hiding its rules and regulations from the mass player base. The sneaky bastages.

So you read the ToS/EULA every single patch?

Have any kids that play WoW? Do you read the ToS / EULA after a patch before you let them play?

I would like to see a case where someone suffers some real loss to see if it would stand up in a court and I am willing to bet money that it won't.

[thinus]

Blizzard, HAS and will continue to change its gaming model to better suite the concerns players have. Instead of mindlessly grinding primals, you can select from a multitude of fun, interesting, and even lore driven daily quests.

And you get to mindlessly grind them every day, yay!

[Vyndree]

So you read the ToS/EULA every single patch?

I do, actually. Yes.

You know, I like to know what's in the documents I'm legally signing.

And you get to mindlessly grind them every day, yay!

I don't find it mindless.

I mean, it's a subject of opinion. I like to listen to audiobooks while I "mindlessly" grind. Or maybe talk to Suvega. Or maybe other friends on Vent. Or maybe watch a little TV.

I'm sure some people consider hopscotch to be mindless.
Or boxing.
Or playing catch.
Or mathematics.
Or watching TV.
Or knitting.
Or reading a book.
Or quantum physics.
Or daydreaming.
Or drawing.
Or breathing.

I mean, it's a matter of opinion. Some people like certain things, some people don't. I don't like playing first person shooters. Maybe it's because it's mindlessly boring to shoot anything that moves. Maybe because I have bad hand eye coordination. My solution? I don't play FPS games. I don't buy them, I don't click the "I accept" on the EULA/TOU for FPS games, I don't install them on my computer.

The fact is, you clicked "I agree". You knew you SHOULD read the TOU/EULA. In fact, you were AGREEING that you understood, read, and agreed to it. You didn't. You lied. In a contract. Now you want protection? Because a bot developer found out that he can't PREDICT what warden is doing anymore?

I mean, Warden was just as transparent when you signed the agreement as it is now. In the terms of use, Blizz noted that they can change Warden at any time. You clicked "I agree" to that EULA/TOU. Now, Blizzard decided that they're going to change Warden dynamically. You can still see what it pokes around in after it pokes around, same as before. Only this time, botters can't predict where they're going to poke around based on a distinct pattern.

Just because 9 million people decide that jumping off a bridge is a good idea doesn't mean you should too. You don't even have facts to support that 9 million people don't read the EULA/TOU. You're just assuming, because YOU are lazy, that 9 million people are also lazy.

Now, I'm not suggesting you stop BREATHING or doing other necessary "mindless" things, but I mean... You have CHOICES here. There are plenty of MMO's and other hobbies that don't use warden -- maybe one of them will be mentally engaging to you. In fact, dual-boxing.com isn't wow-dual-boxing.com. Try a new game. Get out a little.

I mean, if you do consider WoW to be "mindless", I suggest you find another hobby. This one seems a bit too negatively addictive for your personality. Unless, of course, you enjoy masochism.

[Vyndree]

Oh right, how many people have quit because of botting opposed to the amount of people that buy gold / characters or to the amount of bot accounts that actually pay a subscribtion. Those subscribtion numbers really plumetted recently because of all the botting, didn't it?

And show me the effectivity figures of Warden. How many botters / gold sellers has it put out of business? How many accounts have been banned directly due to Warden? Show me the percentage of botters that are directly impacted by Warden.

You certainly ask for a bunch of figures but don't really give any in return, don't you? Give me hard data that botters/gold farmers/RMT does NOT impact game economies.

In the end, it's in the rules, botting is not allowed.

My OPINION? It ruins the game economy, which in turn causes legitimate players to leave because the game becomes too hard to play "normally". Why do we have to wait for the game to be ruined before we try and prevent this from happening?

The truth is, nobody needs data. Blizzard supports neither gold selling, transfer of accounts, real money trade, botting, automating, hacking, etc. It's their game, they can run it how they want. Personally, I like this stance, and I support their efforts to keep the game economy stable and bot-free.

They are very clear, in their terms and eula, that this includes scanning my computer. I, having read the agreement, find this acceptable. If they start putting viruses on my computer, I will sue their butt off. But until then, it is acceptable. If it's not acceptable for you, you should not have clicked "I agree".

The *REAL* problem is not botting, the problem is gold selling and farming. Botting is a side effect and easily circumvented by gold sellers and farmers and it is immensely difficult to detect as farming is essentially a core design pattern for them.

Farming is in their design, but trading gold for real world money is expressly forbidden. Botting is also expressly forbidden.

If you don't like playing soccer, don't buy the jersey, don't sign the waiver, don't join the team, don't play the game.

I can't help it that your interests and likes/dislikes are different then mine. It's human nature, honey. I like pie, you like cake. I'll go get my pie and you go get your cake.

I would REALLY like it if there were agreements that protect my rights and prevent botters from doing anything they like to protect their own interests.

Funny how you don't even mention the normal legitimate consumer. They have no rights apparently. Woohoo!

All I have to say is:

em·pa·thy /??mp??i/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[em-puh-thee] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun 1. the intellectual identification with or vicarious experiencing of the feelings, thoughts, or attitudes of another.

You clearly didn't understand the point of my post. We have rights, yes. They're lined out in the EULA/TOU. For example, we have the right to terminate our subscription at any time if we don't agree with the Terms of Use or EULA.

Blizzard, as owner of their intellectual property, also has rights. These are also lined out in the EULA/TOU. You really need to read your legal and binding documents before you sign them. They have the right to put Warden on our computer, and change Warden's behavior at any time without notice, in order to protect THEIR rights and their intellectual property.

You are so concerned about Blizzard MAYBE POSSIBLY SOMEDAY stepping on your rights, when in fact botters/gold sellers/account sellers are breaking Blizzard's rights RIGHT NOW. Did you ever stop to think about that?

People are just too self-centered sometimes.

Too bad nobody ever reads my EULA before they click "accept".

They don't care if you read it or not. The only reason for its existence is to protect themselves.

I care if I'm signing a document that forms a legal contract.

You know, there are consumer rights in that document too.

...Oh, right... you didn't read it.

I mean, if there are consumer laws to protect their rights, and I'm overstepping my bounds, the consumers could sue me. But they haven't... I wonder why...

You don't get it at all, do you? There is nothing to sue over as no real loss has occured yet. People are concerned about the *potential* for loss.

AWESOME! Blizzard has followed their legal agreement and no wrongdoing has been done.

Oh, wait... what were you saying? You don't like the POTENTIAL for wrongdoing?

Awesome, sounds good. Just take a look at those terms you so hastily accepted to see how you can terminate your contract with Blizzard, cancel payment on your accounts, and stop playing the game.

I mean, if it bothers you so much why do you keep clicking "I agree"? It looks like, to me, that you clearly don't agree with Warden, so you don't agree with the TOU/EULA.

I don't really see why you have such a problem with this. Nobody is pointing a gun at your head and telling you that you have to play WoW. There are plenty of addiction therapy resources available to help you deal with this.

The first step to fixing your addiction is admitting you have one.

If you're not addicted, and you're still playing WoW even though you think your legal rights are being taken away, then there is something seriously wrong. Or, as I said previously, you're just masochistic.