Has Warden Gone Too Far? I think so. Warden = Rootkit

[Zaelar]

tldr version:

Suvega: If you want to know what warden is looking at do so and so.

Thinus: But noone does so and so.

Zaelar: Then start doing so and so.

long version

As someone else already pointed out they are certainly going about it in the most complicated and self defeating way possible.

The only complicated part is making it harder to detect and get around. I don't see how it is self defeating.

Who even reads the EULA? Just because they put something in the EULA does not make it legally binding.

Considering you have to agree to the EULA to play... If you move into an apartment and sign something that you don't know, and it turns out that it says your landlord can take pictures of you in the shower, you won't be winning any legal battles there.

And who monitors their system all the time?

People who want to know what warden is doing.

I would be very surprised if your WoW password was ever sent in plain text. I'd like to see proof of that.

Monitor your internet traffic? I don't know either way, but that should give you the proof you want. Outside of that you won't get anything other than someone saying it does.

Again, who monitors their systems all the time?

Again, people who want to know what warden is doing.

I read it differently. There are 318 different versions detected so far. With the current functionality they can "inject" a new version anytime they want to.

IIRC they could always do that.

The argument is that it does not just present problems to bot writers but to anyone who actually wants to verify that each of these versions are "safe".

I'd say monitor your system all the time, but who does that?

Would you like to go to the cinema if they made you walk through metal detectors and pawed through anything you carried with you to check for hidden cameras etc?

I take it you're getting at if movie theaters did something that you don't like as a security measure you wouldn't go to movie theaters. So if wow is doing something that you don't like as a security measure, don't play wow.

Personally I really hate the fact that a process running on my machine can look at other processes without my permission.

It has your permission. Remember that EULA you didn't read but agreed to? Want to start guessing what you agreed to?

[laeelin]

Chicken Little(aka, botter wanting to get a panic started): No one can check the content of warden updates anymore!!! They could patch a virus or steal CC information!!!

Me: I'd be happy to sign an agreement saying they could install a virus once a year if it stopped you. (As much as I hate doing it, reinstalling would be a small price to pay)

Chicken Little: Well, They could steal your CC information!!

Me: I GAVE them my CC information more than a year ago. They already have that.

Chicken Little: But you don't know what they are scanning!

Me: I know they are not scanning protected files on my computer, and other than that I don't CARE what they are scanning.

Chicken Little: Well, I meant that an employee could install a new version that takes your CC information and resorts it to them!

Me: An encrypted packet still needs an IP address to go to. If WoW suddenly started sending information to some "bellsouth.net" IP, tons of people would know right away.

Chicken Little: ...

Me: I'm in far more danger surfing the web, downloading a driver update, or even reading my mail. I'm 100 times more worried that the next waiter I give my card to at Red Lobster will write down my CC information than that some Blizzard employee will manage to get undetected access to my computer.

Me: No computer connected to the internet is secure. The internet itself isn't secure by it's very nature. Any OS (Windows, Mac, or Linux) has security problems. The best we can do is keep our patches current. Then we hope that when some new way of getting in is discovered, we are not one of the first ones hit.

[Hippieman]

*lots of stuff*

Who even reads the EULA? Just because they put something in the EULA does not make it legally binding.

Considering you have to agree to the EULA to play... If you move into an apartment and sign something that you don't know, and it turns out that it says your landlord can take pictures of you in the shower, you won't be winning any legal battles there.

*even more stuff*

This depends A LOT on which country you live in. The American laws aren't global, ya know :P For starters, such an agreement would be seen invalid in Norway, as it has a unreasonable condition which has nothing to do with the innitial contract and it's purpose, which is letting you live in the appartment.

To draw some lines from that to WoW, if the TOA, for instance, said "you have to give all the gear to a GM when you've played for sixty days", then the validability of that clause would deffinetly be questioned, in a norwegian courtroom, anyways.

So, from *my* point of view, wether or not the EULA and/or ToA is valid at all, can be questioned, also because it's something you have to agree with AFTER you've purchused the game.

It's like selling a car and then come dragging with a bigass contract the buyer have to sign if he( or she) wants to drive it.

[Shogun]

To draw some lines from that to WoW, if the TOA, for instance, said "you have to give all the gear to a GM when you've played for sixty days", then the validability of that clause would deffinetly be questioned, in a norwegian courtroom, anyways.

All else aside, they can take ur gear etc any time they like, their terms state very clearly that ALL of the game content is theirs, including characters, gold, gear etc, there's no way around that regardless. This is why selling accounts, gold, toons etc on Ebay isn't allowed, you don't own anything apart from the game CD's and the right to play within their rules and conditions.

[Hippieman]

To draw some lines from that to WoW, if the TOA, for instance, said "you have to give all the gear to a GM when you've played for sixty days", then the validability of that clause would deffinetly be questioned, in a norwegian courtroom, anyways.

All else aside, they can take ur gear etc any time they like, their terms state very clearly that ALL of the game content is theirs, including characters, gold, gear etc, there's no way around that regardless. This is why selling accounts, gold, toons etc on Ebay isn't allowed, you don't own anything apart from the game CD's and the right to play within their rules and conditions.

Ok, so that was a bad example, but still, you see the retardedness of selling something to a person and THEN, when they plan on USING it, you throw another set of regulations and terms at them.

[Majestic_Clown]

the EULA and the TOS & TOU for the US, EU, KR, CN and TW version of the game are different to obied by the laws for each countries and areas the game covers.

[Hippieman]

the EULA and the TOS & TOU for the US, EU, KR, CN and TW version of the game are different to obied by the laws for each countries and areas the game covers.

Odd, seeing as a UK friend of mine helped me to check this out and ours were the same(, as far as we could be bothered to check, that is :P)

But anyways, the EULA, TOS and TOU cannot be called "illegal" or "invalid" before it has been tried in a court of law. If only someone would sue blizzard and see what the court would say, it would be rather interesting in my opinnion.

[Majestic_Clown]

Trust me there are differences

EULA - End User License Agreement, is an agreement between your self and the company and thus being a contract between you and blizzard.
In a court of law even a verbal agreement can be binding when two parties make a consensual agreement.

By creating an account you basicly sign the agreement and for the continuation of the service when patchs and updates come out that you have to accept to the agreement, you have the option at every patch to either accept the renewal of the agreement or the cancel and decline the agreement.

Its the fundamental law backing contacts agreements, blizzard give you the option to terminate the agreement and not carry on.

Same fundamentals on any agreement, there maybe sections which could be unlawful but if they were someone would of Sued and won by now, and AFAIK the EULA doesnt break any rules because at the end of the day the EULA words it as you RENT/LEASE your account and have the power to terminate the account at any point with no reason.
The power lies with them.

[Majestic_Clown]

sorry I'm deviating from the actual thread topic, sorry.

[Vyndree]

So, from *my* point of view, wether or not the EULA and/or ToA is valid at all, can be questioned, also because it's something you have to agree with AFTER you've purchused the game.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html

YOU SHOULD CAREFULLY READ THE FOLLOWING WORLD OF WARCRAFT TERMS OF USE AGREEMENT (THE "TERMS OF USE" OR "AGREEMENT"). IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH ALL OF THE TERMS OF THIS AGREEMENT, YOU MUST CLICK "REJECT." IF YOU REJECT THIS AGREEMENT WITHIN THIRTY (30) DAYS AFTER FIRST PURCHASING THE WORLD OF WARCRAFT SOFTWARE, YOU MAY CALL (800)757-7707 TO REQUEST A FULL REFUND OF THE PURCHASE PRICE. ONCE YOU AGREE TO THE TERMS OF USE AND THE END USER LICENSE AGREEMENT (EULA), YOU WILL NO LONGER BE ELIGIBLE FOR A REFUND.