Do you think Shaman DPS is low because of us?

[Hachoo]

I don't think the developers take multiboxing into consideration at all in regards to balancing the class/spec.

Even if they did I think it would be the OPPOSITE since more than 1 dev has admitted to multiboxing (and most likely 5 shamans based on the popularity )

Anyway, we'll see how things change in the next month or so - yes our DPS is low but as far as multiboxing is concerned I'm quite happy with where we are and plan to continue with 5 shamans (and at this point probably wont use the pally for PvE at all either - will either do 5 shamans or not run the instance).

[Dorffo]

I guess through all my rabble and rumbling, do any of you feel our existence and adehsiveness to the Shaman class is influencing how the developers balance it? Are we a factor that is causing Ele Shamans to suffer in other areas?

I have to say 'yes' at least to some extent but probably not as much as we'd like to think. I would imagine that there are balancing tests that involve stacking each class in different settings. If we've impacted the Dev cycle at all, most likely it's been to just put a bit more time into those test runs since certain class stacks are being actively played now. I think the fact that the fact that the multibox community hasn't found any groups that are hugely out-of-whack in comparison to normal group play speaks to this.

When I step back and think about it, I don't think we get any more attention than other group comps do. Take for instance the multiple balance passes that have been taken to adjust various content for stealth groups: If we all ran druid/rogue comps we'd say "hey we did that!" when its really to address a much broader issue (since 5 stealth classes can stealth to Boss_X whether they be one or five people in this example).

[TheBigBB]

Blizzard does not make a priority to balance classes for anything other than the current (or soon to be) max level. They've said this repeatedly since 2 years ago, and it makes sense. With so much to balance and 99.99% of the playerbase ready and willing to buy the expansion and level to 80, the work to make sure everything at every stage is perfectly even is too great for too little reward. As of 3 days from now, there will be no such thing as raid or arena balance at 70 anymore. We really need to wait to see what happens. And no, I don't believe that beta test data is useful at all. The beta test is there to work out these issues. If 6 months from, we still think that the shaman is way behind other classes, then we can go storm Blizzard.

[Vyndree]

The ToW stacking nerf was because of us for sure though

I disagree. I think ToW got hit with the anti-stack because every other stacking ability has been nerfed to oblivion.

If anything, Shaman (in general) were nerfed because, in my experience raiding Sunwell, they were "too needed". You stacked Shamans with a vengeance in sunwell, you rotated resto shamans in and out of DPS groups to pop their heroisms and drums and gtfo. Chain heal was ridiculous, an enh shaman was needed in the melee group, totems only stacked in party (thus requiring more shaman, 1 per party)...

...and shaman are the least played class at level 70.

It was bad that shamans were being stacked to the exclusion of other healers. There were a number of reasons that happened, and many of the changes we've made in LK were to address those problems. You can't realistically stack Bloodlust anymore, and you don't need to work a shaman into every group for their totems

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...54677199&sid=1

Now think -- as a developer -- if ToW were to still stack, but totems were raid-wide..... Wouldn't that mean that elemental shaman stacking would be the new "hip" thing to do?

You see the problem here? We were dragging along several bad players simply because they were shaman, and we could make up for their badness if they brought heroisms (bloodlust) and weren't completely retarded about laying totems.


Think about it -- how many high-end multiboxers took ToW?
PvP? None.
PvE? Not many. I did Kara (pre-3.0) without ToW.


ToW's crit was only useful until you could hit ~30% with gear alone. ToW's hit was only useful until you could hit cap yourself with gear alone (and believe me, with the amount of ele mail with +hit on it, it's not hard).


Shaman (elemental) dps is regrettable, and I do hope they put their money where their mouth is with that Lava thing.


ToW impacts only a FRACTION of the multiboxing shaman community. ToW wasn't even BROUGHT to our sunwell raids. ToW wasn't specced by ANY serious pvp shaman (NS anyone?). Why? Because it's f*cking crit and hit, and we have tons of both already. Draenei elemental shaman with ToW had the highest non-gear +hit in the game.

Furthermore, you can QQ about the lack of ToW stacking all you want, but the truth of the matter was it was buffed. Dude, there is a PERCENTAGE SPELLDAMAGE INCREASE on the totem! I would've traded that for crit any day! Crit is sub-par in PvP (particularly on a 5hp totem) due to resil. Crit is "meh" in PvE -- it gives a damage increase, but not so much as straight spelldamage.

Also, did you notice that flametongue totem isn't a weapon buff anymore? Hellloooooo buffs.


No, we're not the uber special snowflake that blizz wants to nerf to the ground. 1) Not many of us specced ToW in the first place because 2) ToW in its previous form was trashy, particularly compared to NS and 3) shaman buff stacking was overpowered by RAIDERS, who took sub-par shaman over awesome healers/dps'ers simply because THEY HAD TO.

ToW STACKING got nerfed because EVERY stacking buff got nerfed. Every stacking buff got nerfed because it was a REQUIREMENT to stack buffs if you wanted raid progression. ToW itself was buffed with a spelldamage increase.


Paranoia anyone? A little self-centered about our impact on the game mechanics? Because all stacking buffs got nerfed -- not just elemental's. If they honestly wanted to nerf multiboxing, they could just remove /follow.

</endrant>

[pinotnoir]

I dont think its us.. The stuff I have read shows our gear doesnt scale up like others. Also they really need to rethink some of the bs they give us on the talent sheet. Its full of useless stuff compared to others sheets. eg.. storm fire earth 5 points of bullshit to reduce a cooldown on cl.

[Vyndree]

Heroism was nerfed (back to back popping) because Sunwell raids required it.

By your own post - nobody used ToW that raided. Nobody. The only people in WoW that really used the damn thing is us multiboxers. The only people that stacked it was us multiboxers.

Grouding still stacks
Healing Stream still stacks
Mana spring NOW stacks in parties (hello OP?)

By your reasoning of "nobody used it" there was no need to make it not stack - because nobody used it (but us). Anyway, just throwing in my side.

Yes, I like the new version better. Yes, overall it wasn't really a nerf, and the fact that my team can go almost forever without mana issues is awesome.

But a fresh 70 team that was NOT gear really benefited from the ToW stacking. Its when you start getting geared where its really not needed (or in PvP where NS was a better choice)

I never said ToW was nerfed BECAUSE raids used it -- I said STACKING was nerfed because raids overused, if not REQUIRED it.

I'll repeat -- ToW stacking was nerfed because ALL raidwide stacking buffs were nerfed. You see? Cause and effect.

ToW as it was (stacking crit) made for a cruddy 41-pointer. ToW NOW is worth having. Now imagine ToW NOW stacking. Completely OP.

They couldn't leave it as a 5-man stacking buff because that would mean (for the spelldamage PERCENTAGE increase) you'd have to have 1 ele shaman in every caster group, which is exactly what they're trying to avoid. NOW, ToW is worth it. THEN, ToW wasn't useful and we only had a 41-point ele shammy in our raids when our resto shaman was already specced ele over the weekend and didn't feel like respeccing for trash.


ToW stacking in its old form USED to only really affect a FEW shaman multiboxers.
ToW in its CURRENT state is buffed, therefore stacking it raid-wide would be OP.
ToW in its CURRENT state is buffed, therefore having it stacking in a party would mean you'd need 1 ele shammy per caster group. This is counterproductive to the "Bring skill, not specific classes" that wrath is going for.


Make sense?

Grounding totem "Stacks" because even if it DIDN'T stack, it would stack. Confusing, I know, but even if you only had 1 grounding totem buff up at a time, you kill that grounding, the next buff goes up. There was no need to nerf it because pre and post-nerf it would have identical behavior.

Healing stream always stacked, but in the party. It was also largely never used compared to mana spring.

Mana spring stacking is along the lines of the replenishment buffs they've given other classes. If 3 classes can provide replenishment, stacking mana spring doesn't seem so OP.
Furthermore -- imagine if Mana Spring stacked raid-wide. Imagine if Mana Spring STACKED raid-wide.

I consider Mana Spring buffed to offset the terribad downranking nerf. Shamans WERE mana efficient when spamming chain heal (rank 4). Spamming max rank means they, well, can't spam. At least those 5 points in Restorative Totems is coming in handy.
Healing stream ticks for a miniscule amount for ele shammies, and a lesser miniscule amount for resto shammies. Given the downranking nerfs I mentioned above, I still don't think anyone's going to be laying it.

Mana Spring buff offsets downranking nerf. So does Replenishment on 3 classes.
Even with Mana Spring / Healing Stream stacking, I wouldn't tailor my raid around stacking shaman.
If Mana Spring stacked RAID-wide, I'd consider stacking ele shaman.
If ToW stacked (in its current form), I would stack ele shaman.

That is the key difference. -- the buff of Mana spring is not enough to rationalize overstacking shammies. The buff to the current ToW, if it stacked, would. ToW is a SCALING dps buff. Mana spring is a flat mana/5, and unless the fight is some sort of endurance thing, that's not going to make/break your raid.


People lol'ed at a full ele shammy dps raid. 1 moonkin, 4 ele shams per dps group. Did you see it being required for raiding sunwell? Nah, crit was fun and all but not necessary. In fact, boomkins and shammies had their own issues pulling sub-par DPS compared to rogues, hunters, locks. So the buff of ToW was fine, given that pure DPS classes could still out-dps them without ToW in the party.
If ToW stacked, this entire forum would be alive with theorycraft on Prepared and Sam multiboxing raids with massive pewpew. Normal raids would demand multiple elemental shaman and throw in the spare boomkin (for nature debuff) and lock (for CoE). ToW cannot stack, because, in its current state, it would unbalance the "neutrality" of raid compositions that wrath is trying to achieve.

[valkry]

I believe when fully buffed to the max, all dps classes/specs should be equal and it being up to the skill of the players to determine dps ranks in the raid (assuming equal gear). Not matter what buffs they bring to the table. This has been the excuse for high rogue dps, that they bring no buffs so they were given high dps, which just makes them hated. But blizz is working on the "invite them for the player, not for the class" motto.

They are trying, so I'll forgive them. I'm sure it's not easy to try to balance everyone.

[Suvega]

No offense ellay, but to all the people thinking this:

You have to be the most short sighted elitist individuals I have ever seen.

ALL RAID STACKING WAS NERFED. Not just shaman.... Oh. Em. Gee.

Honestly, even if JUST ELEMENTAL SHAMAN were nerfed, do you HONESTLY THINK that ANY OF YOU HAVE DONE ANYTHING OF IMPORTANCE TO WARRANT A NERF?
No one, I repeat NO ONE has abused totem of wrath to any measure in this entire community. Do you think the devs give two shits about your "rediculous" crit in kara epics and season 2 gear topping BG leader boards?
Hows that arena rating? How's that top progression. God you're so OP. /sigh.

The only one who could even hint at that with a straight face would be Ellay, and the funny part is, HE DIDN'T EVEN HAVE TOTEM OF WRATH. The only thing he abused was what, Grounding (still here), Heroisms (which was nerfed for raids, not arenas), lightning bolt spam (which was nerfed because of the RAID BUFF FOR CoE), and NS Elem Mast CL (Still here).

So that leaves... Nothing. Let me be the one to pull your head out of the clouds and back down to earth, jesus christ.

Heh... Oh god the multiboxing community of what, 15k people at most, has been the sole cause of devs nerfing 1 million people, and of course removing ALL raid stacking? LOL.... bullshit.

[Dorffo]

No offense ellay, but to all the people thinking this: ...

^ is what I was trying to say - but that was much less vague! :thumbup:

[puppychow]

I think its more a case of the squeeky wheel gets the grease. Hardly anyone plays ele shaman, it was kind of the joke DPS class pre 3.0. I have run a premade 80 shaman (as ele and resto) and a premade 80 hunter on beta in heroics and naxx. Hands down elemental shaman is the worst DPS out of all the DPS classes at 80 right now, hunters are far and away the best (this was about a week ago though, I would guess they are internally tweaking it). Maybe with the lava tweaks it'll get better.

Its fine hopefully for multiboxing PVE, I really doubt 4 ele shamans will be competitive in arenas anymore though (imo DKs "pull" and all the class knockbacks are going to hurt badly). I'm leveling a pally+mage+3 shamans to 80 first, then I'll see if I want to level a second team or not. Who knows, classes get tweaked so much they may suddenly turn out to be super OP after a few weeks.