[Discuss] Mouse vs Click Broadcasting

[olipcs]

Jumping in late here....

Broadcasting a mouse via software is NOT ok IMO. Software is doing the mouse clicking, not the end user. Sure, the end user is telling the software where to click X, Y... but its not the same thing. Its way too close to botting.

Hm, and if thats the argument, how is software-keybroadcasting than ok?

I could also phrase it with:
"Broadcasting a KEY via software is NOT ok IMO. Software is doing the KEY clicking, not the end user. Sure, the end user is telling the software which KEY to click... but its not the same thing. Its way too close to botting."

[genocyde]

Dynamic decision making is possible with in-game UI / macros such as macro conditionals. Deciding which spell to cast based on whether your in combat or not, targeting a friend/enemy, heck I cannot drink a potion if im at full health and thats hardcoded. It's making decisions for me or preventing my decisions. This is imo no different in ANY way from injecting mouse clicks at a specific coordinate set in spirit or principle.

Yet in practice, it is another story. There is nothing in game (that I'm aware of) that supports changing mouse clicking or injecting a mouse click at specific screen coordinates now that the mini-map ping option has been removed.

I'm personally in favor of the "if its not possible to script it in game, it's not legal to script it out of game". After all the second that supporting software becomes a 'requirement' to perform any ability your gaining an advantage over a player that is running strictly WoW. What if that software existed for windows only, what would MAC/Linux users have to say about you being able to perform an action that is simply not available to them.

Edited for content and clarity

[Souca]

Okay, color me confused. I thought we were discussing the replication of a click onto multiple clients to hit a similar virtual location, a good example being center of screen. I never brought up MiniMap:Ping because it is not what I was hardware theorycrafting about. It worked thorough in game channels to coordinate characters who might not have been played by the same user. I can theorize why it was fixed, but that seems to be a waste of effort. However, equating MiniMap:Ping as equivalent to a one way hardware input device is an unfair comparison. Additionally, its not that tablets could be implemented this way, but rather they are by default. The main thrust of examples I provided was to contrast the examples provided based of the fact that all mouse input is relative and capable of losing sync. Tablets are a standard input device that does not suffer from that issue. Since it seems we have been vetting things based on the basis of it being an emulation of a hardware event, I wanted to clarify that absolute positioning via hardware does exist and is implemented at the same level that relative positioning used by mice is.

Is this acceptable by Blizzard? I have no idea. I stated whether I thought it was a issue, but I hope I didn't imply anything beyond that.

Just wanted to clarify the whole MiniMap:Ping analogy. On other thing to note though, MiniMap:Ping sent in game world coordinate offsets, so it only lost acuracy based on the facing of the characters, not the camera angle. Click replication has no concept of in game coordinates or even that a game is involved.

- Souca -

[Vyndree]

I agree -- but at the same time they could've just removed the "send this minimap ping to others in my party" aspect and just stuck with the functionality for solo-characters (for example, when this macro worked Suvega used it to target his Mass Dispell directly over his priest for fights like Felmyst, since he didn't want to sit there not healing while waiting for the event to happen so he could click the dispell targeting circle).

If they intended for it to still be used for solo characters (i.e. clicking on a specific location for the purposes of targeting a SINGLE aoe spell), they would have only hotfixed it for the group sense -- instead they removed it entirely (and I think I read somewhere that they mentioned that they wanted the user to actually have to click to target their AoE spells.... Let me see if I can dig that quote up).

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...Id=64402474434

Yes, allowing AddOns to target spells via the minimap ping was not intentional and was fixed. AddOns may not directly cast spells or change targeting.

P.S. That thread as a whole is very informative. I'd highly recommend it as a read, since it's relatively close to the subject at hand.

[genocyde]

Correct me if I'm wrong but mini-map ping was also a terrain click only it had no ability to interact with objects/menus. So technically the ability to click on the screen with an in-game function has never existed save hardware mouse clicks. Therefore you should not be allowed to create mouse clicks at coordinates unless you are tracking mouse movement.

Tracking mouse movement -- The technique of creating a coordinate click by recieving the information from a click you already made should not be allowed. The coordinates you clicked on your screen are not available to any other party and reading them and passing them as such should be a no-no. Now if you want to send mouse clicks to other clients your click should click their screen and your mouse movement should move their cursor (visible or not).

When you press your run forward key on all clones they run where they are facing not where your active window is facing.

[Vyndree]

Jumping in late here....

Broadcasting a mouse via software is NOT ok IMO. Software is doing the mouse clicking, not the end user. Sure, the end user is telling the software where to click X, Y... but its not the same thing. Its way too close to botting.

Sorry to play devil's advocate here. ;) I'm very good at playing devil's advocate.

What about mouse multiplexer emulators like Synergy? Basically sending relative mouse movements to all computers (just like sync'ing one wireless mouse to multiple computers)? Does that fall into the same category? Why or why not?

[Souca]

I hate to get all semantic and what not, but can people clarify what they mean when they are referring to clicks. In my example, there was no feedback from the system and the mouse pointer would appear at the same relative location on all clients/screens. I specify relative since I allowed different resolutions and a click in the middle of the screen would be in the middle even if the screen was 320x480 on one client and 800x600 on another. In my example I am only talking about mouse/tablet clicks generating clicks on other clients/machines.

I am not talking about clicks in one location going to a different location on another client unless the difference is the byproduct the difference in resolutions. I.e. clicking on the "1" button in the action bar would still click "1" on the other clients assuming the same UI and the same aspect ratio (not widescreen and 4:3).

As for the solo vs multi click intentions of the fix, I only see them stating that they do not want AddOns to cast or target spells and it is inferred that a click should be required to target the spell. I'm exploring a way to may that click multiplex.

- Souca -

[Vyndree]

Probably the best example is people who click skills. You press 1 and you get chain lightning or with a multiplexer you press 1 and 5 clients press 1 to get chain lightning. You click 1 you get chain lightning or you click 1 and get 5 chain lightnings.

Right -- but if you allow people to send mouseclicks to x,y positions, then the precedent is set for them to click on any x,y position on the screen (or potentially even send one x,y click on one machine and convert it to a x1, y1 location on another screen). The only difference between "clicking on teh ground" and "clicking on the lightning bolt button" is the location of the x,y click -- and since that's movable through UI mods (bartender, macaroon, etc) you can't prevent them from clicking on any x,y coordinate they like (in the center of their screen for mass dispell, for example, which is in direct conflict of the removal of Minimap: PingLocation)

[Lax]

Probably the best example is people who click skills. You press 1 and you get chain lightning or with a multiplexer you press 1 and 5 clients press 1 to get chain lightning. You click 1 you get chain lightning or you click 1 and get 5 chain lightnings.

Right -- but if you allow people to send mouseclicks to x,y positions, then the precedent is set for them to click on any x,y position on the screen (or potentially even send one x,y click on one machine and convert it to a x1, y1 location on another screen). The only difference between "clicking on teh ground" and "clicking on the lightning bolt button" is the location of the x,y click -- and since that's movable through UI mods (bartender, macaroon, etc) you can't prevent them from clicking on any x,y coordinate they like (in the center of their screen for mass dispell, for example, which is in direct conflict of the removal of Minimap: PingLocation)

If I understand the issue with Minimap PingLocation correctly, it's that this API was not intended to be used for spell targeting, not that Multi-boxers should not be allowed to click on the ground in some fashion. The Blizzard post that the Minimap_Ping is referring to does back this up (and Souca appears to interpret this the same way I do):
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...sid=1&pageNo=1

Yes, allowing AddOns to target spells via the minimap ping was not intentional and was fixed. AddOns may not directly cast spells or change targeting.

<I think> Slouken is NOT implying that multi-boxers cannot click on the ground to target spells, just that Minimap: PingLocation being used for spell targeting was an unintended bug, and it was therefore fixed. He does specifically say AddOns, which to me would imply just that, you can't download an AddOn that is capable of turning an in-game macro into a way to cast Blizzard. However, with click replication, <I think> the new worldofwarcraft.com thread DOES imply that you CAN replicate clicks anywhere you like, as long as it keeps with the one key to one action rule. Since the demonstration in question is 100% human powered (no delays, no automation, just pure duplication of the user's actions), it should actually be well within the rules to use click replication to do ground spell targeting.

There are caveats to doing this. There is no easy way to guarantee that your screens are all aligned well enough to click on the same location, for example. You can get close, most of the time, but if one session has a hiccup it might be facing elsewhere and the click will be too far off. In order to do it, you would have to manually adjust before clicking. Clicking on UI windows (I said dialogs before but meant any UI window really -- bad choice of wording the first time around) is far more reliable, as long as the window in question is in the same location on all screens.

The question sort of remains as to whether adjusting the mouse position based on resolution is allowed, but this is not done by the software in question at this time (but yes, it could, and without relying on game information -- it would use DirectX API to handle the resolution). The green poster suggests that it should be fine as long as it's not using in-game information, but Reythur's response leaves that question open and of course carries more weight than the green poster.

As far as standard hardware, I think the tablet idea is sound -- in order to work properly for artists to draw, they have to use an absolute x,y. The same is true for touch-screens (except less about artists). I know nothing about the underlying implementation, but these things ARE available and could presumably be multiplexed to other PCs.

[Vyndree]

Yes, Lax. The Minimap Ping is to prevent clicking on the GROUND for area-targeted abilities like Flamestrike, Blizzard, Rain of Fire, etc.

Furthermore, target changes shouldn't be available to addons (/assist and [target=x] is part of the acceptable macro list and therefore excempt). If you look at addons that used to "healbot" for you by choosing who had a debuff to cleanse or whom had the lowest health to heal, you can see how this has changed. Decursive now requires that you click on a specific user's box in order to cleanse that specific person.

So, suffice to say -- targeting using addon key or mouseclicks should be considered a no-no for both helpful and harmful spells.


Now, my "devil's advocate" argument is -- since the UI is modifyable and movable thanks to bar mods, viewports, etc -- how is it possible to prevent a user from making a click to certain UI components if the location of those components is designated by the user. If I click at X,Y (and let's say that's the position of my "Fireball" button), then I move my bars (using a barmod) over to the left and click in that same spot, I could potentially be targeting my Flamestrike spell because I've modified where my normal Blizzard UI buttons are located.

Slouken is NOT implying that multi-boxers cannot click on the ground to target spells,

Actually, he is.

Yes, allowing AddOns to target spells via the minimap ping was not intentional and was fixed. AddOns may not directly cast spells or change targeting.

If you feel he isn't "implying" the same for solo boxers, please find me a quote where it specifies that the rules to solo boxers do not also apply to multiboxers. Solo-boxers may not use any addon, mod, or macro that specifies the target of their AoE-targeted spell. Therefore, multiboxers may not use any addon, mod, or macro that specifies the target of their AoE-targeted spell.

And if multiboxers aren't exempt from soloboxer rules, find me a official quote/rule that says that out-of-game addons are excempt from the rules of in-game macros. The rules to addons apply to out-of-game programs and hardware, much like the macros of the G15, while they carry the CAPABILITY to program delays, may not be used in any way that an in-game macro cannot be used. The rules for in-game macros/addons/mods apply to out-of-game macros/addons/mods. Keyboard multiplexing has been confirmed by GMs, which is why we're allowed to use both software and hardware keypress multiplexers.

Let's take an example: take a solo boxer and let's pretend there's a 3rd party addon for solo-boxers that hooks into WoW and can send mouseclick events to x,y locations. The solo boxer would like to make a macro that casts Mass Dispell. The solo boxer sets up a portion of their UI on this 3rd party addon, with a little button for them to click on that sends a macro:
/cast Mass Dispell
MOUSECLICK X,Y

Regardless of whether the user uses a mouseclick to initiate this macro or not, it's a bad macro. They can mouseclick on the macro all they want -- it doesn't make it any more "right". Let's say they position the button right on their X,Y coordinate and mouseclick on it. Still bad. The macro is telling the mouse WHERE to click -- regardless of whether or not the click was initiated by a keyboard macro or by mouseclicking the macro -- the user didn't actually click on the in-gane floor location that targeted where hte mass dispell was going. It clicked/keypressed on a 3rd party addon, which then sent a addon-based mouseclick to the screen. According to Slouken's quoted macro, that is bad.

Any user (multiboxer or not) can tell you that the actual SPELLCAST of Rain of fire and other targeted spells is not just the keypress on the spell. It's the actual mouseclick that makes the spell. You won't get stuck in a GCD by just pressing the Rain of Fire spell. Nothing happens when you press the Rain of Fire button (except for a funny looking green targeting circle). The GCD, the spell, everything starts when you mouseclick on the location at which you want to cast.

The unfairness also happens because normal users get STUCK in that "green targeting circle" phase when preparing to cast their targeted aoe. Is it fair that multiboxers could potentially do this near-instantaneously (since a computer can issue a keyclick+mouseclick on x,y location) much faster than a human finger(s) can? Is it fair that, for example -- Suvega sitting there with his green targeting circle waits for the right time to mouseclick to remove an effect on Felmyst, while some dude running a 3rd party mod just has to click once and the cast+click happens so fast (thanks to the computer's speed) that he doesn't have to sit there wasting time prepairing and aiming his targeting circle?

It's not up to us to interpret the rules (and claim that these interpretations are "what blue said") or to make inferences based on context ("what blue meant to say", "souken INTENDED to say") -- rules are black and white. If something feels to YOU as gray, consider it bad and ask for clarification of the rules.

Unless Slouken specifically says "I intended to say this..." what YOU or I think about what Slouken said or didn't say is completely irrrelevant and not up to us to interpret. If you like, say "I THINK that Slouken intended to say this..." but don't work in false, leading absolute statements that have no foundation whatsoever. If ever someone quotes me with "Vyndree said 'rules are black and white' but she REALLY meant to say 'gray area won't get you banned'" I'd be pretty upset about someone completely misquoting me, putting words in my mouth, and making up complete counterfactual, agenda-driven statements. Yes, I'm angry about this particular part of your post.

I did you a favor -- I stepped up to the plate and asked blues for a confirmation of the rules because, for whatever personal reason, you can't or won't. Just because you can't/won't take the time to get official statements from the blues doesn't mean you can make things up about what they said. We all have the quote. We're not completely blind. Find me the part where Reythur and Slouken confirms your statements. If you can't find that, and can't go get clarification on your own for whatever reason, then don't allude anything at all. Because honestly, making up statements or pretending that your interpretations are fact is a cold, hard lie.

However, with click replication, the new worldofwarcraft.com thread DOES imply that you CAN replicate clicks anywhere you like

Quote this please. Reythur was very clear that he could not give confirmation of ANY mouse-related behavior, and recommends not to use it until firm rules could be made and the implications of those rules were well known.

Do not put words into the blues' mouth. I've read nothing of the sort. If you want to share your opinion, share your OPINION (and make it clear) -- but I never read a single thing direct from the blues saying "it's ok to replicate clicks" or even "it's ok to replicate clicks as long as the original x,y = the replicated x,y". In fact, the only definitive thing I've heard is "We don't have a definitive answer. Until we do, I[Reythur] recommend not using it"

Read: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...92857&sid=1#55

We're honestly touching upon very questionable grounds here, and I'm wary to provide either a positive or a negative at this point in time.
...
While the use of the mouse to click on point A on screen 1 and point A on screen 2 is a little less questionable than the preceding example, it can still lead to some interesting and questionable uses of it.

I'd personally avoid it until the technology is 1) more well defined and it's limitations established and 2) a better understanding of it's specific intended uses are understood fully.

I understand that this isn't exactly the definitive answer you were looking for, and for that I apologize. However, I'd prefer to abstain from providing a definitive yes or no until more information is available regarding the technology.

LESS QUESTIONABLE != within the rules. It's a relative comparison -- for example, perhaps you could say "gold buying is less questionable than botting". That doesn't make gold buying any more right. It's still against the rules.


I've edited your post (in red) because I feel it is misleading. Please do not spread inaccurate information about blue posts in the future.