[Discuss] Mouse vs Click Broadcasting

[Anemo]

You are both doing the same thing, trying to interpret the blue posts when there is no definitive answer anyway.

Your example of addons that were removed were because of automation, having an addon decide on who to cleanse and to do it for you is automation. In my opinion having your mouse click replicated doesn't appear to be in different in terms of automation than broadcasting a key press.

I don't really see what the real issue is here anyway, click broadcasting doesn't really allow you to do anything you couldn't just click on that screen to activate anyway.

The only problem I can see is sending a click to specific coordinatates and the fact blizzard wouldn't really be able to differentiate between that and replicating a keypress. Even then is there really any advantage at all for this? I'm not sure what I'd ever want 'clicked' in the same spot every time.

[Vyndree]

You are both doing the same thing, trying to interpret the blue posts when there is no definitive answer anyway.

Correct, except the post is about discussion of opinions, and only one has claimed that their opinions are based on official Blizzard facts that don't exist.

I don't have a problem with sharing opinions. I have a problem with making up facts that aren't there, particularly when they potentially deface the words and intentions of the Blizzard poster behind them. Lax is (still) welcome to share his opinions (as is everyone) as long as the facts and official Blizzard comments are not obfuscated while he does so.


I'm not trying to harp the same thing over and over again, but since you mentioned that I just wanted to make it 100% clear what I'm harping about. Your opinions in your post are always welcome (this is a forum, after all), I just want to make sure that my upset is not interpreted as being either a personal vendetta or unfounded. The only thing I'm upset about is the misquotes -- people can agree to disagree based entirely on opinions, that's cool.

[Lax]

You are both doing the same thing, trying to interpret the blue posts when there is no definitive answer anyway.

Correct, except the post is about discussion of opinions, and only one has claimed that their opinions are based on official Blizzard facts that don't exist.

I don't have a problem with sharing opinions. I have a problem with making up facts that aren't there, particularly when they potentially deface the words and intentions of the Blizzard poster behind them. Lax is (still) welcome to share his opinions (as is everyone) as long as the facts and official Blizzard comments are not obfuscated while he does so.

I think you may have missed my post. I have the same problem you have with making up facts that aren't there. Please read it.

Edit: The post is #51 on this thread.

[Anemo]

The only problem I can see is sending a click to specific coordinatates and the fact blizzard wouldn't really be able to differentiate between that and replicating a keypress. Even then is there really any advantage at all for this? I'm not sure what I'd ever want 'clicked' in the same spot every time.

From my POV - it'll "look" like a botting program is calling the shots - not the player.

This is the main problem. Even legitimately used mouse replication would appear the same as it is still sending to a specific x/y coordinate, it just happens to be the same coordinate as the original mouse click.

Still, I can't imagine any botting program using mouse clicking or aoe spells which would be blizzards main concern.

[Vyndree]

The question was: is making decisions about where to click in a UI bannable?

The wording of this question unfortunately leads to a large number of possible misunderstandings of what I would like to respond with. =/

Are you making the decision? Or is the software?

We're honestly touching upon very questionable grounds here, and I'm wary to provide either a positive or a negative at this point in time.

Due to the nature of Multi-Boxing (and as you're well aware of, we've deemed Multi-Boxing more than fine) there are always going to be questionable methods of approaching the practice. Replication of a keyboard press is a little less of an issue due to the way it works; however, software making adjustments of mouse placement depending on a number of variables determined by the user leans more towards automation.

While the use of the mouse to click on point A on screen 1 and point A on screen 2 is a little less questionable than the preceding example, it can still lead to some interesting and questionable uses of it.

I'd personally avoid it until the technology is 1) more well defined and it's limitations established and 2) a better understanding of it's specific intended uses are understood fully.

I understand that this isn't exactly the definitive answer you were looking for, and for that I apologize. However, I'd prefer to abstain from providing a definitive yes or no until more information is available regarding the technology.

and retracts his earlier statement that it is not okay.

A retraction would be an update and/or direct conflict of two statements. I see nothing in either of his two posts that contradict each other, nor any sort of update to the first statement present in the second statement.

This is what I see:
Statement #1:

2) Is making dynamic decisions (based on memory) about the location of a UI action button (in order to click it) bannable?

This really does sound like automation of some form

Statement #2:

The question was: is making decisions about where to click in a UI bannable?

The wording of this question unfortunately leads to a large number of possible misunderstandings of what I would like to respond with. =/

Are you making the decision? Or is the software?
...
I understand that this isn't exactly the definitive answer you were looking for...

In actuality, it just looks like something like a FAQ, where a person goes down the line answering various questions. I see no relation other than the fact that both questions were asked and answered in the same thread.



What I'm saying, is saying that your INTERPRETATION or assumptions do not facts make. Stating them as if they were facts, straight from the horse's mouth, is misrepresentation of the blues. Stating them as if they were opinions, on the other hand, would've been perfectly acceptable and the whole conflict could've been avoided.



In final, there need not be additional discussion about what should/shouldn't be said. I think I've made that clear in my editing of your thread, to give you an example. As long as the example is followed in the future, there need not be any additional discussion about what you said/didn't say -- we know you MEANT that it was your opinion (since that's what you keep following up to say, for example, in post #51). But the delivery of the message was not clear. I have since, through edits, made it clear. As long as it stays clear in your future posts, we're cool. Cool?

[Vyndree]

Ive been multi-boxing games since the late 90's and yeah this thread was worthwhile because for some odd reason certain people feel like they are the voice for everyone. I assure you of one fact, you are not now and never will be the voice of me. None of you. Its pretty obvious from where this has been going she has personal interest in burying this guy and its not right.

Snaeb, you are more than welcome to voice your own opinion and self-represent. I think you're doing an awesome job of accurately representing yourself from what I'm seeing from your posts on this forum. It'd be much like someone choosing to be represented by a governmental party (i.e. democrat, republican) versus independently. In the case of the independent, it is... of course.. up to them to make their own interests known to whatever parties that impact them.

Lastly - stop implying you speak for everyone, you dont. We have a voice and if we feel we need to say something, we are capable of registering an account and adding a reply.

Once again, claims that I'm implying something I haven't been. Quote, please? I have provided evidence on why I feel INVESTED in defending my hobby. Other people happen to share my hobby, and other people happen to share my opinions. I'd imagine that, if I were defending my opinions/interests, and other people have the same opinions/interests, then yes... I'd be defending them too since they (by their own association) have the same needs that I do. If you don't, that's cool. You can defend yourself. You don't play World of Warcraft, but I'm sure you can manage to defend your hobby on whatever games you participate in.

Besides -- if you don't play World of Warcraft, then why get so huffy about my opinions on click replication and how I've taken it to the World of Warcraft official forums? Any ruling that gets made on WoW (if you don't play it) won't really impact you much... would it?

I guess what Im trying to say is STFU and email your game's customer service department and stop this soap opera bullshit.

Uh... so you have your own opinions, your own voice (which you feel the need to spout in this thread), and you want me to stfu and not share my voice? Hmm.... no thanks.

As long as this is an opinion thread, I think everyone should have the right to share their opinions.

[Lax]

No, not cool at all editing my posts, misquoting Souken and implying that what is paraphrased (edited from "said" because his quote is verbatim and I did not want to imply that his actual quote was incorrect) on the dual-boxing.com wiki is what he specifically said, and meanwhile claiming that I am mis-quoting blues when I spoke about an entire thread. If I could edit your posts, I would do the same to you in response.

What I'm saying, is saying that your INTERPRETATION or assumptions do not facts make. Stating them as if they were facts, straight from the horse's mouth, is misrepresentation of the blues. Stating them as if they were opinions, on the other hand, would've been perfectly acceptable and the whole conflict could've been avoided.

Fine. As long as you are going to agree that it is your OPINION that he implied ANYTHING besides AddOns shall NOT have the ability to "directly cast spells or change targeting", and indeed as I said, this does not contain the word CLICK or GROUND and therefore should not be stated that Souken said that YOU MAY NOT CLICK ON THE GROUND. Yes, that would perform the same EFFECT of what happened with Minimap: PingLocation but it is NOT the same thing and should NOT be taken to imply that the EFFECT was what is being prohibited. If the EFFECT is produced by a more legitimate fashion, such as click replication be it hardware or software, in any fashion that they say is okay, granted they did not specify that software movement of the mouse cursor on an absolute basis is okay -- However both CLICKING and MOUSE MOVEMENT are performed by KeyClone, Synergy and other software according to OTHER PEOPLE (in this thread and others), the difference here being ABSOLUTE POSITIONING and on the SAME PC.

If I stated that in a way that you do not agree with, please let me know.

[Vyndree]

If you feel I've said anything ambiguous or just plain wrong, quote it and if others agree with you I'd be happy to edit it, since you lack the moderation ability to do so. I was very clear with what I've edited in your posts. It's in bright red, and none of your text has been deleted.

[quote='Lax',index.php?page=Thread&postID=139779#po st139779]Fine. As long as you are going to agree that it is your OPINION that he implied ANYTHING besides AddOns shall NOT have the ability to "directly cast spells or change targeting",[/quote]

Answer me this:
If something cannot be done with an in-game Addon, and hasn't been specifically given an excemption by other rules/blues, does that mean that it can/should be done with out-of-game addons?

That's called LOGIC.

Maybe I'll add an example:
If delays can't be done with in-game Addons and Macros, and hasn't been specifically given an excemption by other rules/blues, does that mean it can/should be done with a G15 macro?


You, my friend, are using semantics to try and dance around and obfuscate the fact that there is indeed solid straight-from-Blizzard-reps proof that allowing a macro/addon (whether ingame or out is irrelevant) to target an AoE-targeted spell (such as Blizzard, Rain of Fire, Mass Dispell) is not something that should be done by in or out-of-game Addon.

[quote][color=#0000ff]Yes, allowing AddOns to target spells via the minimap ping was not intentional and was fixed. [b]AddOns may not directly cast spells or [u]change targeting[/u].[/b][/color] [/quote]
Did he say "in-game Addons" or "Addons"? Did he say "This does not apply to out-of-game addons"? Did he say "this does not apply to multiboxers" or "this only applies to solo boxers"? You can't make interpretations that aren't there. My interpretations are based on logical truths, not implications/interpretations, and are supported by rulings made on similar situations (G15s)

For your information -- that little green circle on an AoE spell? You know, the functionality that was changed by the editing of the Minimap:PingLocation? You know, the thing that normal people click on the ground? That's called TARGETING.

The actual little "ping" sound and action that happens in your minimap still happens. It's just the effect of spell targeting for aoe spells that was removed.

This is the blizzard UI message you get when you attempt to use minimap ping while mid-target of an AoE spell:
[quote]A macro script has been blocked from an action only available to the Blizzard UI.[/quote]

Is an out-of-game macro/addon part of the Blizzard UI? And since you're investment in this thread/forum is via ClickBoxer -- is ClickBoxer part of the Blizzard UI?


P.S. I checked the thread I was referring to when I mentioned you claiming the same functionality exists in Keyclone, and I will admit I made an error. It was actually [url='http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&postID=139147#post139147']Zanthor who made that claim.[/url] And I do believe he was mistaken -- Octopus/Keyclone can make RELATIVE mouse movements, but I don't BELIEVE (and I'll let an expert confirm) whether they can click on specific x,y coordinates (particularly if the windows are different sizes/resolutions).

[Lax]

Answer me this:
If something cannot be done with an in-game Addon, and hasn't been specifically given an excemption by other rules/blues, does that mean that it can/should be done with out-of-game addons?

That's called LOGIC.

Maybe I'll add an example:
If delays can't be done with in-game Addons and Macros, and hasn't been specifically given an excemption by other rules/blues, does that mean it can/should be done with a G15 macro?

I've read posts specifically saying that delays are not allowed, so no.

I would like to see a quote about things being done or not with in-game addons in order to form an opinion on your question.

I don't think it applies to keyboard or mouse replication, because neither is available from in-game addons, and both are user input. You can't make an in-game addon replicate keystrokes on your other characters, after all, so does that mean that keystroke replication shouldn't be allowed? The game won't even allow you to cast a spell without a button down, so you can't just send a message to someone and their addon immediately pick it up and cast a spell. Key replication can be used at the login screen to type the same password for your accounts if you use multiple accounts, but in-game addons cannot be used at the login screen. Thusly, I don't think that INPUT REPLICATION is bound by the ADDON RULES, because input replication is at a higher level than the game is, and I don't think that to say that because an addon cannot click, that your mouse or mouse replicator should not be able to click, would be appropriate. Nor do I think that to say that because an addon cannot press a key for you and have it type into the chat window, that a keyboard or replicator cannot press a key for you, would be appropriate. Rather, user input actions may cause AddOns to perform an action, or do something else in the game (edit: And this is SOLELY due to World of Warcraft interpreting those user inputs and performing the action).

ClickBoxer is not part of the game UI, nor does it directly interface with the game UI. It presses keys when you click a button.

Repeater, again, is replicating user input actions. It does not interface with the game UI, it presses keys when you press a key, or clicks when and where you click. It does the same clicks that are available to your mouse.

When a Blizzard poster talks about AddOns, and I will note the capitalization of the O, I would take that to mean in-game interface AddOns. Anything else would typically not be referred to as an AddOn, to avoid such confusion as in this thread. But, for the purposes of this retarded argument, I will bite. It could very well indeed be taken to mean "anything added on" such as software like ClickBoxer or KeyClone, or hardware like a keyboard or a mouse or a monitor or a joystick or a gamepad. So my keyboard and mouse may not change targeting? How far out of context shall we take AddOns?

[Vyndree]

Just don't use the macro keys to do anything a normal wow macro could not do in a single press

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...=1&pageNo=2#27

If you are using the allowed base UI macro functionality and manipulating global cooldowns to make this kind of thing happen, then that's probably fine. After all, many Hunters sequence their shots using macros.

If, on the other hand, you're using a G15, or anything else capable of utilizing macroed 'delays', then that is not okay

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...geNo=1&sid=1#2

As Arrch has described, the general rule is one action (either single ability or allowable in-game macro) per keystroke per account

(emphasis mine) http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...geNo=1&sid=1#6

Just make absolutely certain that you're not making more than one keypress (for the purposes of the word 'keypress' this includes a single key press AND release with no delays), or including delays between key-presses with each action.
Essentially, if you could legally create the command as a functional macro within the default user interface, then it should be okay.

(emphasis mine) http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...geNo=1&sid=1#8

Allow me to set your argument to rest. This:

Add in a 3rd party program. You press ONE button and all 5 screens react. How exactly is that fair/legit? It's not. The ability to control 5 computers at once with 1 single keyboard and 1 single press of a button is automation. The ability to make your characters cast their individual spells and skills at once by pressing 1 button is automation.

Is not automation by our standards. This is why multi-boxing is just fine.
The moment that single keypress initiates a string of actions not normally possible via our base macro system for an individual character, then that is a different matter. It is also a separate offense.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...&pageNo=14#278

Think of a single key-press as a lever. You pull the lever, and something happens.
Think of multi-boxing as simply attaching 5 levers to a single handle. You're still only pulling one lever, it just affects more than one something.
Now, think of automation as a lever attached to a set of gears and pulleys. You pull the lever, and a whole slew of bits and bobs start working, gears whirring, pulleys spinning. You might pull a lever, but it sets a process in motion that would be impossible with an ordinary pull of the lever if those gears and pulleys were not in place. Automation can apply to a single character just as much as it could with multiple characters.
The point is that the 'something' that occurs spools out without direct human involvement aside from the initial pull of the lever. That is automation. Even if it's only a single extra step.
In multi-boxing, every action taken by those characters has its source in a human command. Each individual action. Thus, it is not automation

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...=1&pageNo=1#13

so hitting 1 key and have it do 1 action in each game window is fine?

Absolutely!

(emphasis mine) http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...geNo=1&sid=1#7

Semantics issue #2:
Software (such as Keyclone, Octopus, etc) to emulate a keyboard multiboxing solution is,
by nature, "3rd party". Is "3rd party software" synonymous with "bot" or "automation"?
Are all types of "3rd party software" bannable?
Likewise, hardware, by nature, is "3rd party". What kinds (or uses) of 3rd party hardware are bannable?

Is it sending an identical signal to all client windows or switching between them to send commands? Not automation.

Is it playing the game for you, or rather, for one of your client windows? Automation.

All hardware is considered neutral as long as its commands and features are not being used to automate gameplay.

(emphasis mine) http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...469953&sid=1#9
(Before you go on about automation, note that BLIZZARD defines automation as it pertains to WoW. No Blizzard empoyee has claimed that mouse replication or mouse clicks on multiple machines/clients is not automation. Before you claim something isn't automation, I'm going to ask you to quote the blue representative or rule that says so)

If you insist, I'd be happy to start a new thread to ask Blizzard GMs "Are out-of-game macros and addons held by the same rules of conduct as in-game macros and addons?" Although, I'm rather sure of what their response will be. I'd be happy to ask, rather than make MORE ridiculous semantic arguments, if you're still confused. Can you honestly say that you'd be confused about what they'd say, or are you just reaching for any leg to stand on?


In order for mouse replication to be OK, we'd need several criteria to be met:
1) It doesn't break any of the existing rules in the ToU/Eula (or is specifically given an exemption -- INCLUDING this ambiguous rule: "Anything that Blizzard considers contrary to the "essence" of the Program."
2) It doesn't break any future rules as they are updated (since Blizzard can update the ToU/Eula at any time)

Since neither of those two requisites are met, mouse replication is not OK. However, Keyboard multiplexing has 1) been confirmed not to be contrary to the spirit of the game, and 2) been given a specific exemption (by way of official Blizzard posts) to allow it.

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/legal/termsofuse.html

WHEN RUNNING, THE PROGRAM MAY MONITOR YOUR COMPUTER'S RANDOM ACCESS MEMORY (RAM) AND/OR CPU PROCESSES FOR UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAMS RUNNING CONCURRENTLY WITH WORLD OF WARCRAFT. AN "UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM" AS USED HEREIN SHALL BE DEFINED AS ANY THIRD PARTY SOFTWARE, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION ANY "ADDON" OR "MOD," THAT IN BLIZZARD'S SOLE DETERMINATION: (i) ENABLES OR FACILITATES CHEATING OF ANY TYPE; (ii) ALLOWS USERS TO MODIFY OR HACK THE WORLD OF WARCRAFT INTERFACE, ENVIRONMENT, AND/OR EXPERIENCE IN ANY WAY NOT EXPRESSLY AUTHORIZED BY BLIZZARD; OR (iii) INTERCEPTS, "MINES," OR OTHERWISE COLLECTS INFORMATION FROM OR THROUGH THE PROGRAM. IN THE EVENT THAT THE PROGRAM DETECTS AN UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM, BLIZZARD MAY (a) COMMUNICATE INFORMATION BACK TO BLIZZARD, INCLUDING WITHOUT LIMITATION YOUR ACCOUNT NAME, DETAILS ABOUT THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM DETECTED, AND THE TIME AND DATE THE UNAUTHORIZED THIRD PARTY PROGRAM WAS DETECTED; AND/OR (b) EXERCISE ANY OR ALL OF ITS RIGHTS UNDER SECTION 6 OF THIS AGREEMENT, WITH OR WITHOUT PRIOR NOTICE TO THE USER.

If 3rd party software INCLUDES any "addons" or "mods", I think we can set that argument to rest, no?


EDIT: This page might also be useful: http://us.blizzard.com/support/artic...rticleId=20224