[Discuss] Mouse vs Click Broadcasting

[Lax]

You want me to prove that something is NOT okay? Instead of assuming that everything is OK unless specifically endorsed as "OK" by blizzard? Seems a bit backwards -- normally one assumes that anything not specifically allowed is wrong, unless it is specifically allowed by blizzard. For example, keyboard broadcasting is specifically allowed by Blizzard. That's why we CAN use keyboard multiplexers (and software). Those quotes are here: http://dual-boxing.com/wiki/index.php/GM_Conversations

You were asking me to form an opinion based on your loose paraphrasing, and I would rather form my opinion on something official.

The majority of your quoted statements were about key replication and not specifically about addons. I do see that you have highlighted the parts where they are specifically talking about key events, and of course not mentioning mouse replication -- it apparently hadn't come to their attention or I am sure they would have addressed it.

If you insist, I'd be happy to start a new thread to ask Blizzard GMs "Are out-of-game macros and addons held by the same rules of conduct as in-game macros and addons?" Although, I'm rather sure of what their response will be. I'd be happy to ask, rather than make MORE ridiculous semantic arguments, if you're still confused. Can you honestly say that you'd be confused about what they'd say, or are you just reaching for any leg to stand on?

I think that once again you're avoiding the entire point of my post. The question as stated does not provide any information about the conversation we are having, and is self-serving just like your last thread, in order to get the response from the GM that you want to hear, rather than what is important. The answer to your question would be a very confused "yes." The real question you need to be asking is if, when Souken specified AddOns, he meant it as "in-game AddOns cannot perform this action" or he meant it as "third-party software or hardware of any kind cannot perform this action", and I am likewise rather sure of what the response would be, because he was specifically talking about minimap ping incorrectly performing an additional action. Are YOU just reaching for any leg to stand on?

And yes, I know what minimap pinging is supposed to do. I am not new to the game.

In order for mouse replication to be OK, we'd need several criteria to be met:
1) It doesn't break any of the existing rules in the ToU/Eula (or is specifically given an exemption -- INCLUDING this ambiguous rule: "Anything that Blizzard considers contrary to the "essence" of the Program."
2) It doesn't break any future rules as they are updated (since Blizzard can update the ToU/Eula at any time)

Since neither of those two requisites are met, mouse replication is not OK. However, Keyboard multiplexing has 1) been confirmed not to be contrary to the spirit of the game, and 2) been given a specific exemption (by way of official Blizzard posts) to allow it.

If that is your criteria, then have at it. My opinion on the matter is that they would apply the same rules to the mouse as they would to keyboard and for that matter any other input devices -- and I believe from the comments of others that they feel the same way. I would love to be proven wrong, so ask away. As it stands, I see nothing from an official source that would tell me any differently. Oh, and if mouse replication is not allowed, it would sure throw a wrench into the argument (not saying that this argument was yours, just referring to the argument) that Rob would never put a feature in KeyClone that could get you banned from World of Warcraft.

If 3rd party software INCLUDES any "addons" or "mods", I think we can set that argument to rest, no?

No. Third-party software, by definition and in the context of Blizzard's EULA or Terms of Service/Terms of Use, means any software not written by Blizzard. So it includes... any software ... at all... including in-game or out of game software "addons" or "mods"... that are not a Blizzard product. You even quoted the rest of the paragraph which explains that it is Blizzard's sole discretion whether any are allowed that do certain things that may be considered "cheating" and so on. Nobody is arguing about that.

[zanthor]

Solo-boxers may not use any addon, mod, or macro that specifies the target of their AoE-targeted spell. Therefore, multiboxers may not use any addon, mod, or macro that specifies the target of their AoE-targeted spell.

This is exactly what should make CLICK BROADCASTING 100% legal and if this discussion was only about CLICK broadcasting instead of being wrapped up in semantics then only the truely blind would disagree.

Lets say I take two copies of wow running on two machines, I set one @ 800x600 and scale the UI so it covers the same relative portions of my display as another client running 1600x1200. I set the other machine to run 1600x1200.

I spend the time to get my mouse speeds matched, so that on the 800x600 machine the mouse moves 1 pixel for every two that the 1600x1200 moves. I disable windows mouse accelleration which has the random effect of speeding your mouse based on velocity, and I hook a single mouse to both using hardware. This system WILL have to be zero'd in a corner from time to time, but not nearly as often as one may think.

So I click at 600x600 on the big screen, this also clicks at 300x300 on the smaller screen...

How does this differ (With the exception of zeroing) from clicking 600x600 and broadcasting 300x300?

Multiboxer Hardware: Moves hand to broadcast mouse, Moves mouse to corner/zero it, Moves to 600x600ISH, Clicks button on broadcast mouse to send click.
Multiboxer Software: Moves Mouse to 600x600ISH, Clicks button on KEYBOARD to broadcast click at current mouse location.
SINGLE PLAYER: Moves Mouse to 600x600ISH, Clicks button on MOUSE to click at current mouse location.

Ok, so the basic rule of thumb is one hardware action = 1 hardware action per client... It sounds to me like click broadcasting via software or hardware are identical in that respect... Having the ability to press the F1 key and broadcast a click to clients at 300,300 or whatever definitely could begin to make me question... That said, the sad truth is I don't think it's possible to identify the source of a click without some serious voodoo-weejee (I could be wrong).

[Suribusi]

Since I can give my opinion I shall.

I don't have a problem with sharing opinions. I have a problem with making up facts that aren't there, particularly when they potentially deface the words and intentions of the Blizzard poster behind them. Lax is (still) welcome to share his opinions (as is everyone) as long as the facts and official Blizzard comments are not obfuscated while he does so.

This is my exact problem with you Vyndree (in regards to this and similar threads). You say stuff like this here, yet you go right over to wow forums and make up facts that aren't there about a software product you don't even use. I use innerspace as I have stated before, and have been using it for a while. Now I see "my hobby" in jeoprody because you go on some factually inaccurate quest for answers. What am I to you, collateral damage?

You could have handled this more appropriately by getting a clue about what you were talking about first, in a plethora of different ways, before posting on the wow forums. I already have Big Brother ruining my real life and the way I live it, I don't need Big Sister to ruin my virtual hobby. You want to get clarification issues? Go for it, I wish you the best. However, you should get actually get the facts straight before making more posts like the one on wow forums.



***********WARNING, THIS IS SOLELY MY OPINION ALONE.... MY OPINION!.... PLEASE DO NOT EDIT ME!**********

-S

[Vyndree]

In order for mouse replication to be OK, we'd need several criteria to be met:
1) It doesn't break any of the existing rules in the ToU/Eula (or is specifically given an exemption -- INCLUDING this ambiguous rule: "Anything that Blizzard considers contrary to the "essence" of the Program."
2) It doesn't break any future rules as they are updated (since Blizzard can update the ToU/Eula at any time)

Since neither of those two requisites are met, mouse replication is not OK. However, Keyboard multiplexing has 1) been confirmed not to be contrary to the spirit of the game, and 2) been given a specific exemption (by way of official Blizzard posts) to allow it.

If that is your criteria, then have at it. My opinion on the matter is that they would apply the same rules to the mouse as they would to keyboard and for that matter any other input devices -- and I believe from the comments of others that they feel the same way.

So... my criteria is "following by the rules with 100% clarity", but you have a different opinion? Mice and Keyboard are two different things. If they weren't, keyboards would be able to click AoE targeted spells. They can't. Mice can. Therefore, mice have additional functionality not available to a keyboard. Why? Because they move in 3 different directions -- keydown/keyup, left/right, forward/back.

Therefore, you can't say that everything that applies to keyboards also applies to mice. Keyboards can't do everything that mice do (though mice -- through clicking -- can do everything a keyboard can -- unless you want to argue that you can't click on an on-screen keyboard, in which case mice can't chat)

I would love to be proven wrong, so ask away. As it stands, I see nothing from an official source that would tell me any differently.

You dont' have to be proven WRONG. You have to be proven RIGHT. You don't automatically start "RIGHT" just because you say so. Blizzard has to say so. Right now you're neither -- Blizzard has said neither yes or no. Neither doesn't make you right.

I could say "Heaven is real. It's real until you prove me wrong". That doesn't make Heaven any more real or unreal "just because I say so. Now if God came down and appeared in front of us and say "Yo, guys. I own heaven. I make all the rules. And I say it exists", then sure -- we'd having something going there.

Oh, and if mouse replication is not allowed, it would sure throw a wrench into the argument (not saying that this argument was yours, just referring to the argument) that Rob would never put a feature in KeyClone that could get you banned from World of Warcraft.

That's up to Rob and Keyclone. I, personally, am not involved with Keyclone or Rob (as a developer). I'm full hardware.

That being said, Keyclone has gotten a "sure, it's OK" from GMs. That, at the very least, gives him a one-up from a developer who won't or can't get confirmation from his own product,particularly when his product uses unique (and nonconfirmed) features such as clicking using x,y coordinates in an XML file rather than sending ALL relative movements (left/right, up/down, front/back) at all times. Even RELATIVE movements don't really have a firm confirmation on whether or not it's OK -- look at Fursphere's opinion. He won't use either form.

It's certainly possible that blues are misled, or perhaps that mouse multiplexing is only allowable if it doesn't involve x,y coordinate clicks, or maybe even mouse multiplexing in all forms is fine but they're just not ready to say that yet. What Blizzard says, goes -- and Blizzard says that Keyclone is fine. Until Blizzard says that x,y coordinate click systems are OK, then we can't make the same assumption that it won't get anyone banned.

If 3rd party software INCLUDES any "addons" or "mods", I think we can set that argument to rest, no?

No. Third-party software, by definition and in the context of Blizzard's EULA or Terms of Service/Terms of Use, means any software not written by Blizzard. So it includes... any software ... at all... including in-game or out of game software "addons" or "mods"... that are not a Blizzard product. You even quoted the rest of the paragraph which explains that it is Blizzard's sole discretion whether any are allowed that do certain things that may be considered "cheating" and so on. Nobody is arguing about that.

That's, once again, your interpretation. Is "in Blizzard's sole discretion" applied to the wrongness of the software? If all in-game addons are 3rd party software, are all 3rd party programs addons? If all mods are 3rd party software, are all 3rd party programs mods? Is ClickBoxer a addon? Is ClickBoxer a mod? Or is it Blizzard's discretion?

If blizzard says that "addons" may not do something, and all addons are 3rd party programs... does that mean all addons are also in-game?

Once again, I've offered to post on the customer service forum for your rediculous nitpick of the english language. I wonder why all keyclone/octopus/ahk/multiboxing software threads tend to get moved to the UI/Macros forum...? According to you, they're "3rd party programs" that exist on a level outside of the game -- so that makes them neither related to the UI or the Macro system.

[Vyndree]

Wow, this thread is filled with nothing but miconceptions and FUD. The only person who was remotely close was Wilbur.

Warden is a very intrusive program. On top of doing memory checks in process, it also actively scans out of process for known "bad software" via hashes. The links to Lax's blog is the only reading I would recommend to anyone.

Other miconceptions/FUD clarification:
-Blizzards bannings for 3rd party software are automated, it is when you bitch about your ban that they get human review, or if you get reported and they monitor you (because they don't detect what you are doing with method 1)
-Warden runs scans throughout your whole wow session.
-Warden scans out of process as much as it does in
-Techniques to "defeat" warden are just as wilbur stated, which is more of "faking results". If your client doesn't report warden scan data to their servers you get disconnected.
-Attempts to "defeat" warden are no futile. It is entirely possible if you know wtf you are doing.
-Lax said Greg hollunds book was laughable. (Maybe not exact quote, I think he mentioned it in his blog).
-The only truely successful person at doing so is Lax.
-Yes, call me a fanboi, because I am. Throughout the whole history of warden, there have only been 2 months (scattered about) of detectablility for the isxwow extension using his anti-detection measures.

Here is a closing factual statement: There are only a small handfull of people around here that will every be at or around 0% risk of getting banned. Those people are the ones who employ 100% hardware methods. Anything else is "technically" against the EULA/TOS. Synergy, multibox, keyclone, ahk.... you name it. What the software is used for is irrelevant, it is simply up to blizzards team for what they decide is bannable.

There is a risk using any software here, so if you don't want to get banned, the best option is to take 0% risk. Blizzard will notify you via e-mail letting you know that software you have is bannable, and it will come with either a 72 suspension or a full ban. But it won't say "software x is bad", it will say "you have something to make us do this, so figure out what it is on your own and remove it".

Overrall, the basic goal is to provide a nice medium between risk/reward. Multibox and other apps like it provide a very nice way of controlling multiple characters for minimal risk. With keyclone, it might be a very small amount more (currently). This is the happy medium that a lot of us go with, because we simply can't or don't want to dump extra money into hardware to mitigate the risk..

From all my currently knowledge on the subject I would say that the OP isn't presenting anything of merit. I would also agree with the person who said that AHK and/or AutoIT are more likely targets before something small like keyclone. There are bigger fish to fry, which is why blizzard has a lawsuit with MDY and has scans in place for their app, and not keyclone. It is not worth their time to persue....currently.

-S

So, in November of 2007 you admitted that "anyone using software is taking a risk"... but now it's MY fault that the software YOU use has now put you at risk? Really?

[Suribusi]

I brought it to their attention, and they are still unwilling to address it. Raise some red flags?

No, not at all. Because the GMs are the bottom rung. They make 0 decisions. All they do is what they are told or allowed to do. It is easy for them to say "no, stay away" because if they end up wrong in the end, they can say "we have changed our policies and this is allowed" or something similar. However, they cannot easily say "yes this is ok" and be wrong, because it is their job on the line. So their "unwilingness to address it" tells me that they don't want to be wrong. Which also makes sense since you cannot provide them with anything but fiction. It is hard to read your posts any more, they are highly ridiculous. You are seeking answers from people who cannot make decisions, on top of providing them with false information from the start and not even bothering to edit the original post to correct yourself for new thread readers. You are being very irresponsible in pursuit of.... whatever it is you trying to accomplish at this point.

-S

[Vyndree]

Which also makes sense since you cannot provide them with anything but fiction. It is hard to read your posts any more, they are highly ridiculous. You are seeking answers from people who cannot make decisions, on top of providing them with false information from the start and not even bothering to edit the original post to correct yourself for new thread readers. You

Show me. Don't make claims, provide facts.

If you're honestly going to have a feud over "well, she didn't know and PURPOSELY and EVILLY misrepresented the product and then maliciously LEFT THAT INFORMATION ALONE", then I am not going to argue with you. If you read my posts and feel that delusional about them, I'm afraid there is no logic that I can provide you with that will be adequately convincing to remove your bias. We shall agree to disagree.

The fact that GMs cannot provide any yes/no answer proves that the problem is more complex than "oh, it's just the same as keyboard multiplexing". If it were "just the same" it wouldn't be hard to get verification. They don't make decisions, but they certainly can get decisions from teh powers that be. If it were a simple "oh, it's just like broadcasting a keyboard signal" do you honestly think it would be difficult for them to get an answer?


EDIT: Zanthor, I appear to have missed your post in my haste.

I totally agree -- like I've said before I don't think the idea of what ClickBoxer (or other programs that would like to use x,y locations) is inherently bad, I just think it's a slippery slope. The discussion has seemed to degenerate into whether or not it's gray area RIGHT NOW, but yes... the original topic should be brought back (after all, if it stays too long off-track I've been advised to lock it).

You (and some others) have both mentioned that perhaps Blizzard can't confirm/allow click broadcasting because it would obfuscate their detection of botting. In essence, Click casting could be perfectly fine, but because it uses similar methods to botting I/O it could be unwittingly facilitating the anti-detection of bots.

That also makes sense.

[Suribusi]

Don't blame me for being responsible and wanting Blizzard's opinion. Don't blame me for not becoming an instant-expert on a program whose developer didn't take the responsibility to confirm for himself. Don't blame me because Reythur didn't read the updated sections of the thread, where it's clearly marked what parts of the post were erroneous. Don't blame me because YOU chose to use nonconfirmed software and are now suffering for it (though I can't imagine why you feel anything has changed -- it's as unconfirmed as it has been when we first started out).

You are not responsible for your irresponsible actions because someone who was intelligent didn't do it first. Gotchya.... moving on.

-S

[Vyndree]

[quote='Suribusi',index.php?page=Thread&postID=1398 15#post139815]You are not responsible for your irresponsible actions because someone who was intelligent didn't do it first.[/quote]
Was that what I said? No, I just called out the portions of my actions that were relatively blameless. I did make a mistake. I admitted I made a mistake. I attempted to fix the mistake

EDIT: Notice -- The time between my first post and [url='http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.html?topicId=11675540596&pageNo=2&sid=1#39']where I corrected[/url] that I had been working off of incorrect information was less than an hour. The time between the first poster telling me that I had made a mistake and my response was 20 minutes. How fast do you want me to be?? Keep in mind, I was at work at the time! The time between my postand Reythur's response? Nearly 12 HOURS from my original post, and Reythur responded 11 HOURS after I had posted a correction. The information was there. I even posted a followup after Reythur seemed to misunderstand the context.

However, since it was unintentional... yes. I would very much like not to be blamed for a mistake that I made unintentionally, attempted to fix immediately, and will get bashed for forever. Will it happen? In your case... probably not. But such is taking responsibility for one's actions -- I've made a mistake, innocent as it may be, and I will be thoroughly punished for doing so by fanboi's of the product for all eternity. Ah, c'est la vie.

I've made mistakes in the past (of which you've already mentioned you're aware). I guess that makes me human. I hope not to err in the future, but I have a feeling I can't reliably make that a promise.

A mistake is a mistake. There are more appropriate people who should've been more responsible and talked to Blizzard first. I don't admit I haven't made a mistake, but I also think it, while unintentional, could've been easily prevented. You can continue to lynch me for making such a inconceivable mistake and then correcting my mistake as soon as humanly possible, but it's probably not appropriate for the thread.

Nobody is infallible. Not even self-proclaimed fanboi's. ;)


You can't deny that the moment my error was brought to light, the thread was updated with that information. There are limits to how much I can do. I'm not psychic. I've attempted to repair the mistake to the best of my ability.



I'll have to ask that you either ignore me (because you seem to have a problem with anything that I say/do), or at the very least keep your thoughts to more private avenues. I don't mind, if you need to vent your frustration, that you PM me. I may not respond to particularly scathing comments, but at the very least we won't clutter the thread or continue to break the forum rules. I'm being lenient because I understand that the argument has gotten a bit heated, and hasty reactions are made in states like these.

[Lax]

The fact that GMs cannot provide any yes/no answer proves that the problem is more complex than "oh, it's just the same as keyboard multiplexing". If it were "just the same" it wouldn't be hard to get verification. They don't make decisions, but they certainly can get decisions from teh powers that be. If it were a simple "oh, it's just like broadcasting a keyboard signal" do you honestly think it would be difficult for them to get an answer?

If you hadn't mis-represented the questions to them in the first place, it would be a lot easier to answer your questions. Leave your misconceptions of what ClickBoxer does out of it, and ask about mouse replications.

There are very simple questions to be asked:
1. Is it okay for mouse cursor movements to be replicated, when a human moves the mouse, using relative positioning?
2. Is it okay for mouse cursor movements to be replicated, when a human moves the mouse, using absolute positioning?
2.1 If yes, is it okay to bind specific absolute mouse positioning (say, "move mouse to 300,400") to a key or mouse click?
2.2 If yes, is it okay for absolute mouse positioning to be based on the resolution (say, so an 800x600 window versus 640x480 window can both click in the same location by scale)?
3. Is it okay for mouse clicks to be replicated, when a human clicks the mouse?
3.1 If Yes, does it matter where the click is -- is it okay to click the ground or are only clicks on UI elements okay?
3.2 Is "moving the mouse" one action, and "clicking the mouse" one action, with respect to the "one key per action" rule? -- or is it okay to combine both to have a single key click, for example, "minimap zoom out"

I'm not even going to bother responding to the majority of your post to me, as it is so tangential now it's getting ridiculous. Suffice it to say that I do not see any generosity whatsoever from you. I didn't ask you to make posts claiming ridiculous things about something I wrote, and it sucks that I have to come here and play defense with you spreading FUD on the official forums. I also love that you make assumptions about what I will or will not, or can or cannot do. I'd love to explain it to you sometime, but that time is not now, so I am sorry you feel that way. You can stop berating me for not posting on the customer service forums any time.

But this....

That's, once again, your interpretation. Is "in Blizzard's sole discretion" applied to the wrongness of the software? If all in-game addons are 3rd party software, are all 3rd party programs addons? If all mods are 3rd party software, are all 3rd party programs mods? Is ClickBoxer a addon? Is ClickBoxer a mod? Or is it Blizzard's discretion?

If blizzard says that "addons" may not do something, and all addons are 3rd party programs... does that mean all addons are also in-game?

Once again, I've offered to post on the customer service forum for your rediculous nitpick of the english language. I wonder why all keyclone/octopus/ahk/multiboxing software threads tend to get moved to the UI/Macros forum...? According to you, they're "3rd party programs" that exist on a level outside of the game -- so that makes them neither related to the UI or the Macro system.

You will find that my interpretation of the term "third-party software" is the correct interpretation, that's simply what third-party means is "not first-party" and in this case the first party is Blizzard. Software means software. There is no other correct interpretation of "third-party software". Feel free to ask Blizzard what "third-party software" means.

No, not "all 3rd party programs are addons" depending on the context of the word. Is Windows an "addon"? It is third-party software. It doesn't matter what you call ClickBoxer, whether you call it an addon, or a mod, it doesn't really matter. In the end we're talking about a single statement from Shouken, you seem to have conceded that he was most likely talking about in-game AddOns, and yet you want to make this about every single instance of the word "addon" wherever it appears. ClickBoxer (whose positions in XML define where the buttons appear on the screen. When you click one of those buttons, they produce a keystroke. There is nothing more to it, there is no mouse positions in XML about where to click anywhere.) is not an in-game Addon, and could not have used Minimap: PingLocation in the first place, so I don't even know why you're trumpeting on and on about this. And yes, AHK, KeyClone, Octopus, are all third-party programs, and all exist on a level outside of the game. To my knowledge they even work for games other than World of Warcraft, do they not? So how would they be first-party programs, and how are they not outside the game? Why does it matter that they get moved to the UI/Macros forum? Is there a better place for them? I would suggest they are moved there because there isn't a multi-boxing forum, and it's probably more appropriate than the general or technical support forums -- I imagine there's a lot of questions about setting up UI or particularly in-game macros due to these products, so it would make sense to try to put them all in the same place.

I hope your job doesn't involve interpreting the English language, or code. You keep talking about "facts" and "logic" yet you seem to have a firm grasp on neither. I really don't want to be rude to you, so I'm going to stop responding. This is going nowhere, you're getting upset with me over nothing, and I'm getting upset with you because you're so sure you're right about everything and that I must be wrong. I really wonder if you're arguing for the sake of arguing, because you seem to take every single line of my posts, and take it out of context, and say something completely stupid in response. Like the in-game versus out-of-game argument, I am specifically talking about USER INPUT DEVICES and REPLICATING ACTIONS PER USER ACTION and you're wanting to take it out of context and get a GM to say that "out of game addons have the same rules as in game addons". You're even making up things about ClickBoxer, when I have repeatedly stated that it is REPEATER that moves when you move, it clicks when you click. No magic involved here, but just to calm you down, I added in the questions you wanted additional answers on, such as absolute positioning to a specific location other than the current position of your mouse.