The Days of Pure Shaman DPS Are Numbered

[Yagamoth]

Blizz stated somewhere (on the bluepost tracker at mmo champion...) that pets are going to be viable offtanks. Since we've got the new talents now already and the instances are much easier, this is possible.

I'm amazed

[Flight]

Skills List[/url] / Talent Calc. (9095)[/b])
Elemental tree pre-75
Chill out. Nobody said Elemental was useless until 75. All I said was that your damage wasn't quite as high as other ranged dps at 70. Your ability to level, do instances or even raid at 70 aren't really compromised. (Source)

I am convinced shaman are a trash killing machines. Staggering thunderstorms makes melee easy. Grounding totems makes casters simple. If/when they try to buff our AOE damage things will get even easier. I would say the only way Shaman groups are dead in the water is if they start making a huge ammount of nature immune mobs. Until that point I think they are going to be fine. Another thing I would like to raise is that if shaman are doing 1/2 the damage of the druids/mages/warlocks they will certainly get buffed at some point.[/quote]

To be clear :


I haven't said Shaman DPS is dead. Please don't take the thread off in directions it doesn't need to go by suggesting things have been said, that haven't. I haven't said Shaman will do substantially less DPS than the other classes; what I have said is stacking buffs and effects from a series of other classes will improve the DPS of the whole party by significant amounts.

To be succinct the point is a group with 4 Shaman in it WILL do substantially less damage than a mixed group. To my mind that is beyond debate.

The extensive utilites other classes bring aside from DPS , not least being crowd control, buffs, party summon and party teleport are just bonuses.




And, again, this is a thread about PvE.

[Tehtsuo]

Blizz stated somewhere (on the bluepost tracker at mmo champion...) that pets are going to be viable offtanks. Since we've got the new talents now already and the instances are much easier, this is possible.

I'm amazed

Viable in Blizzard's eyes and viable in raid leader's eyes are two very different things. Anyone who's tried to get a ret paladin into a raid in the past 6 months (pre patch 3.0 of course) can tell you that.

As for shaman teams, I agree with you that our synergy won't stack as much for pve as it used to - Totem of Wrath is a good arguing point there. However, Tremor Totems remain a tool that many multiboxers find so valuable they can't go without. I've thought about rolling a new team many times, and even with Will of the Forsaken and a trinket I still feel that I'd be dealing with some major frustration in pvp. I like to experience both worlds with my team, so for me a minor reduction in the damage viability of shaman synergy is worthwhile in order to keep my pvp strengths.

And let's face it, min/maxing is for progression raids, and how many of us are using our teams in those? Not many I would wager.

[shaeman]

[EDIT: Decide to go with a more constructive post rather than pull up use of derogatory terms like incompetent,lazy and negligent]

Is max dps the most defining factor of a group?

I think the reason 5 shamans were so popular wasn't just because of the DPS they brought but also to the their other abilities. They could all heal each other. Could interrupt casters with earthshocks, could ground ranged spells. Could crowd control mobs through the use of stone claw, so I would say that a good group would require all these aspects. (Also bear in mind that they gain the hex spell in wotlk, so even more CC options).

Personally I like the idea of converting a 4 shammy 1 pally team into a 1 pally, 3 shammies and a moonkin druid.

All can heal, all take a hit, all can buff, all can res, 4 have pets to bring to the table, the shaman and moonkin have viable crowd control (entangling roots, and I'm figuring hex will be okay).

[Kulzor]

Teht, I try to min/max everything I can about my team... I do it in a PvE sense for running heroics, but I want every bit of damage output I can get. (Not dps, as Recount charts don't always correlate the two like they should...)

Also, if you want AoE monsters, look at a group of hunters. Paladin tanking, hunters volley, then multishot to finish off groups. My elemental shaman does much better dps on trash fights with 3+ mobs, but the hunter continues to blow him away on those as well.

I'd replace my hunter with my 70 boomkin that sits on the sidelines in a heartbeat if she (and her buffs) would cause the group to do more damage - but the hunter does so much more damage (on the order of 30% to 45% more damage than either the shaman or mage do), that the druid buff wouldn't make up for it. Too bad it costs $25 to move characters to other accounts or I'd just try it to see what happens.

[Flight]

If you want a reasoned, grown up discussion on the merits of various classes that would be great.

Perhaps drop the use of emotive and derogatory terms such as negligent, lazy and incompetent for anyone who isn't going to pick the exact team you deem to be best.

You know I had decided not to respond any more, to see what other peoples points of view were and let others evolve the discussion. But this needs a response.

You are totally misrepresenting me in your statement , 'anyone who isn't going to pick the exact team you deem to be best'. I agree with your post, though; at one point my choice of language was poor and, as its been referred to by you, just editing it would be unfair. I regret saying it and I apologize if it was offensive. As I have said, I am one of the people who has boxed extensively with 5 Shaman.



There is nothing I would like more than a grown up discussion on the merits of various classes and the damage increasing synergies they can bring to a party post 3.02

[Schwarz]

Flight you are making your mind up on stuff that hasn't happened yet. Can we level to 80? Are you sure that

To be succinct the point is a group with 4 Shaman in it WILL do substantially less damage than a mixed group. To my mind that is beyond debate.

To be clear: Unless you have a magic ball you can't make statements like this. And what is substantially less damage? If we are talking about PVE you need to factor in other things besides damage.

Will your other group have the surviablity that a shaman has?

I would think a "normal" team (1 tank 1 healer 3 dps) would have a hard time keeping up with the damage of a 5 dps team.

[Kulzor]

I would think a "normal" team (1 tank 1 healer 3 dps) would have a hard time keeping up with the damage of a 5 dps team.

This is an obvious truth. In PvP especially, a 5-shaman team will outperform the mixed group with a tank and healer. It's why PvP should be discussed separately, they are two totally different animals.

However, long term thinking, I'd rather think more about goals like running heroics and/or smaller raids at 80, than of the leveling process to 80, or the normal instances at 80. Blizzard's already made it clear that they intend non-heroics to be "easier." While I haven't played a group at 80, I wouldn't be willing to bet all my future time assuming that a tank won't be needed. (Nor that a hunter pet will tank a heroic, given Blizzard's comments.)

For a "normal" instancing team (one with a tank and a healer), you've got three dps slots to fill. The synergy between most of these are excellent, while two of the same will just override each other:
Elemental Shaman
Warlock
Balance Druid
Mage

I'm not sure of the damage output or debuffs a shadow priest casts to know if they fit in well there or not. I need to find out if the debuff from Earth and Moon stacks with Curse of Elements... If they don't, then a mage's group buffs may be too minor to include.

Edit: Earth and Moon does NOT stack with Curse of Elements. The spell penetration from CoE gives it a slight edge on bosses, apparently, but the warlock won't be giving the spell damage and haste to the rest of the casters.

[Schwarz]

At level 70 a 5 shaman team is as much of a PVE team as a PVP team.

Edit:



Here is the flexablity of the 5 shaman team.

This guy is a pansy and I can kill him before he kills me. 5 dps out there

Ok I need a tank b/c this guy hits hard. Ok I will drop my earth elementals. Still have 5 dps out there.

Ok i need a tank and I need to heal that tank b/c this guy hits really hard. Ok I will drop my earth elementals and make my main heal them. Still have 4 dps out there.

[Flight]

Flight you are making your mind up on stuff that hasn't happened yet. Can we level to 80? Are you sure that

To be succinct the point is a group with 4 Shaman in it WILL do substantially less damage than a mixed group. To my mind that is beyond debate.

To be clear: Unless you have a magic ball you can't make statements like this. And what is substantially less damage? If we are talking about PVE you need to factor in other things besides damage.

Will your other group have the surviablity that a shaman has?

I would think a "normal" team (1 tank 1 healer 3 dps) would have a hard time keeping up with the damage of a 5 dps team.

I'll reply to one point, for clarity. I'm not pushing a 'normal' team. I am promoting multi class synergy.

It can be a normal team, as you say, for running all heroics, or an all caster team.