Raidboxers, why shamans?

[Tasty]

I assume 25 paladins could take down a raid boss

[algol]

I assume 25 paladins could take down a raid boss

Seeing as they can out-tank, out-heal, and out-dps ...well, everybody... right now? I would hope so. Theoretically it's getting fixed. Now if they can "fix" it by making shamans more powerful, I think no one around here would complain too loudly...

[valkry]

Bosses that can be downed with 25 of X class: kazzak, doomwalker (or whatever his name), Gruul, Magtheridon, all of kara, half-most of ZA, lurker, hydross, morogrim tidewalker, probably fathom lord K, Void Reaver, Supremus, Akama, rage winterchill, 2nd boss of mount hyjal, teron gorefiend.

Have you seen this ACTUALLY done? With which classes? With what kind of gear (i.e. do you expect each of the 25 to be wearing sunwell level gear?)

What about gruul's ground slams? Netherspite's beams? Mag's box clicking? Lurker's knockback? Hydross's nature resist (for ele shammies)? Dodging void's orbs (keeping in mind that they silence)? Supremus's random targeting? Teron's ghosts?




Of course, I'm under the impression we're talking about at least 5 5-boxers or more (2.5 10-boxers? 1 25-boxer?)

If you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME. No where did I say it involved boxing, the claim was "virtually no bosses" can be downed by 25 of X class, I simply gave examples of which bosses I feel can be. And no, you do not need sunwell gear, those bosses are laughable in terms of difficulty. Now for the wall of text...

kazzak - Ezmode, just tank, spank and don't die lol. 25 pallies or druids could do this. If you need sunwell gear to do this fight, please join a new guild and stop getting carried.

Doomwalker - Same as above, just heal through dmg, tank and spank. Don't die.

Gruul - does not include HKM. Groound slams...well, that's why you spread out. 25 pallies would be hard because they are all melee, but you know, there is this mod right, which shows a timer for his ground slams yea, which you can put in a very visible location on your screen right, so you can move the fuk away. 25 druid, 2 bears, 6-7 resto druids, a few cats, rest = boomkins.

Mag - 5 bears, 5 boomkins (clicking cubes), 6 trees, rest can be whatever. Same can be done with pallies, it's not a dps race, have some holy, 3 prot, rest can be ret. have your cube clickers organised. Same as with gruul, DBM shows a timer for when he is about to cast blast wave. It's not hard to dps until 7 seconds til blast wave then move over to the cube.

Lurker - Druids or pallies. Druids can all be ranged dps bar the tank, no need to worry about knockback. Even if you have melee dps, knockback is laughable, wait for a heal, more forward and start dpsing again. Have 3 bears ready for tanking when he dives and 3 ranged dps on each platform.

Hydross - nat resist can be achieved by prot pallies. No problem. Adds can be aoe tanked (dont even need resist for those since the nerf ages ago).

Void reaver - apart from running sideways to avoid this huge ball of electricity, you can also camp at his feet and just heal through the groundings. (This boss I feel can be 25 boxed with 3 prot pallies, some healers and rest ele shammies.

Tidewalker - 2 prot pallies, 6-7 holy, rest ret. AoE is no problem, neither is healing. Nothing really too hard about this boss. 25 druids would also be able to do this.

Kara - I don't need to say anything, it's already been done. Go to youtube, 10 druid kara, 10 pally kara.

ZA - Eagle boss is tank/spank/run in. bear boss is dual tank/spank. Dragonhawk boss is tank/spank/deal with adds/avoid fire bombs. Zul'jin can be done with pallies because they can dispel themselves, and can autoswing dps the phase where spells cause dmg.

Supremus - Phase 1 = tank/spank, when nearly Phase 2, run away, avoid fire, easy.

teron - when you become a ghost, kill the constructs, easy. pallies can dispel, druids can aoe heal massively.

rage winterchill - yawn, heal frostbolt targets, dps, run out of disease cloud.

2nd boss of mount hyjal - 1 tanks boss, 1 tanks infernals, heal, dps, infernal healer stay away from boss to avoid carrion swarm.

I had already said that they can be done with either pallies or druids for most bosses. Shammies can't tank most end-game bosses (they can tank kara, go to youtube). Wouldn't surprise me if a shammy tanked VR though, really wouldn't.

I said in another thread that there are 2x25 man bosses I felt could be solod with a 25 boxer, one of them is VR, the other is rage winterchill. VR, camp at feet, heal/tank/spank. Rage, just strafe to avoid disease, click heal frostbolt targets, take your few raid deaths and your loot

PS: If you can't camp at the feet of VR because he will then start spamming orbs in melee range (I dont think he will though because there is a minimum range), you can set up 3 resto druids to strafe in a circle around VR (lock down strafe and a slow turn on a seperate keyboard or keybinding) so that th orbs will always fire at them, but due to constant movement will never hit.

[algol]

the claim was "virtually no bosses" can be downed by 25 of X class

I recall a certain vid of a bunch of frost mages lolling it up on Rag back in the day.

[valkry]

yea, 1 min 34 seconds downing him. But wasn't a mage tanking nor a mage healing. All druids can down rag though Even all pallies, just have to run out every once in a while though lol.

[algol]

"A pally can down any boss solo: they bubble-hearth and declare Mission Accomplished."

Or something like that.

[valkry]

"A ret pally can down any boss solo: they auto-swing and declare Mission Accomplished."

Or something like that.

Yup, totally agree. :thumbup:

[Vyndree]

If you ASSUME, you make an ASS out of U and ME. No where did I say it involved boxing, the claim was "virtually no bosses" can be downed by 25 of X class,

Actually, the title of the thread is "RaidBOXERS, why shamans?" -- hence my impression that they were asking for theorycraft/experiences of raiding MULTIBOXERS.

Furthermore, the prefix and postfix of the "claim" is...

While I can't speak on behalf of Sam or Prepared, I can tell you that there are virtually no bosses (especially in WOTLK) that you can steamroll by simply bringing 25 of x-class to a "raid"; some people are even questoning the viability of the 5-man shaman setup for WoTLK, especially with the pure damage that NPC warrior/paladin types are issuing in instances.

So forgive me if my IMPRESSION (nowhere did I say assumption, but the mockery was cute -- I wasn't aware that my post came off as hostile, only argumentative -- we ARE having a discussion, are we not?) was incorrect, but imo it was pretty realistic given the context and the quote to think that way. I'd also generally assume (yes, assume) that anything on a multiboxing forum that isn't in "off-topic" should probably have to do with multiboxers?

I didn't disagree on the fact that single-class soloboxers can accomplish these things -- 10 druids have completed Karazhan LONG before the patch. 10 paladins as well. Hybrids (with tanking and healing specs) tend to do the best when they don't actually outgear the instances. But I was under the impression that we were talking about multiboxers -- in which case any fight involving complex movement or immediate reactions would likely fail.

[valkry]

It may have started out that way, but threads derail. Some were talking about raid boxing, but I was not talking about boxing bosses with 25 of X class, I was talking about downing bosses with 25 of X class.

He should have said "the are virtually no 25 man raid bosses that can be downed by only boxers" instead of what he said. Also, Sam and prepared are not just shammies, Sam has a Pally, prepared has other classes too. Hence "25 of X class" is not entirely true for them.

PS: Whilst the prefix and postfix may have been about boxers, I didn't quote those...for a reason, I was only talking about what i quoted. Nothing more. yes I took it out of context a little. But that quote was a bit of a deviation, and proving that some bosses can be downed by 25 of x class is just a short step away from being able to prove that a boxer can. My belief of VR and RW being boxable still stand. One day I might even try it.

PPS: That little bit of text is interesting. The thread was aksing "why all shammies?" Like why all of one class, why not have different ones?

While I can't speak on behalf of Sam or Prepared, I can tell you that there are virtually no bosses (especially in WOTLK) that you can steamroll by simply bringing 25 of x-class to a "raid"; some people are even questoning the viability of the 5-man shaman setup for WoTLK, especially with the pure damage that NPC warrior/paladin types are issuing in instances.

Reworded...I can't tell you why Sam and Prepared chose all shammies, but there are like no 25 man raid bosses that can be downed by using just one class, hell, even using a 5 shammy team for instances is becoming questionable...
This has veered off to talking about group composition more-so than boxing, hence I answered it the way i did.

The bosses I listed can be downed by using just a single class.

PPPS: When I reply to a quote, I only talk about the quote. Nothing more. I don't talk about what came before or after the quote, only the quote, it's why I singled it out instead of the whole post. It's...propper.

[Vyndree]

Also, Sam and prepared are not just shammies

I didn't say they were. Sam & Prepared are RAIDboxers, in that they both box enough characters that they must "convert to raid" in order to even have them in the same group.

The semicolon is a delimiter -- on a seperate note, people are panicking about the reduced efficiency of shaman stacking.

They are two seperate issues that are mildly related.

While I can't speak on behalf of Sam or Prepared, I can tell you that there are virtually no bosses (especially in WOTLK) that you can steamroll by simply bringing 25 of x-class to a "raid";

My translation: Since Sam and Prepared are the only ones with enough numbers to make this theorycraft possible (and who have not yet had the experience of firsthand knowledge yet), I don't believe bosses (especially in WOTLK) can be brute-forced by 25 multiboxed characters.

some people are even questoning the viability of the 5-man shaman setup for WoTLK, especially with the pure damage that NPC warrior/paladin types are issuing in instances.

My translation: Furthermore, 5-shaman groups are not as viable in wrath as they were in burning crusade. (which would therefore imply that Sam and Prepared's 25 man groups which are largely composed of shaman would be more successful in BC -- prepatch -- than they would in wrath -- postpatch -- thanks to shaman stacking)

As it appears to me, Rin was speaking in the context of multiboxing. Without that context, the phrase you bolded might not have been his opinion. He talks about Sam and Prepared, a common multiboxing comp (5x shaman), and further goes on to talk about his personal multiboxing comp. Therefore, the context of "I can tell you that there are virtually no bosses (especially in WOTLK) that you can steamroll by simply bringing 25 of x-class to a "raid"" looked like, to me, a comment made regarding a MULTIBOX'ed raid. You quoted the entire text -- without the additional context I could see why you would consider it to be an incorrect statement -- but I responded the way I did because you told him to "think outside the box" and I felt his observation was perfectly reasonable. You can't just focus on a partial quote, without context, and draw conclusions about what a person's opinion is -- I'd imagine Rin's opinion outside of multiboxing would be far different than his opinion considering multiboxing.

That's my interpretation of the post. It doesn't match yours and that's fine -- I'm just giving reason why I gave my response and why I feel that my response was nonthreatening (though you still seem to think otherwise).

P.S. You quoted the entire post, including the phrase above, in a thread about multiboxing and raids.

For clarity, you quoted this exactly (note that highlighting a sub-portion of a quote does not a single quote make):

Mana spring/healing stream are not raid wide. They stack, but for group play only. Imagine 25 x healing stream or mana spring totems, lol ;-)

The original poster was asking about raid groups being composed of all shaman. While I can't speak on behalf of Sam or Prepared, I can tell you that there are virtually no bosses (especially in WOTLK) that you can steamroll by simply bringing 25 of x-class to a "raid"; some people are even questoning the viability of the 5-man shaman setup for WoTLK, especially with the pure damage that NPC warrior/paladin types are issuing in instances.

Personally, I run ten characters: 4 shaman, 2 paladins, a priest, a druid, and two mages. The mixed classes really make a difference when it comes to end-game content, as encounters are specifically designed around you bringing N-number of certain class types to a raid. Besides, if every/any T5+ instance could be steamrolled by having all of one (especially caster based, in the case of shaman) class, hardcore players could get through the entire expansion (less attunement time) within weeks, probably not more than 6 weeks at best.

Also, besides being uber fun and awesome; outside of winterspring, and as someone has pointed out - outside of a city raid, there's not a lot of content where you can bring 30+ characters into, unless you're looking at the 40 mans, which you can do now with 1 group (max 2 groups) of decently equipped characters.

...when you meant to quote this...

I can tell you that there are virtually no bosses (especially in WOTLK) that you can steamroll by simply bringing 25 of x-class to a "raid";

Now, the first quote (the one you actually did) includes the context. The second quote puts words into Rin's mouth that I'm not sure he meant to say, because it's only a subset of a sentence. A subset of a sentence without the context around it, and of which you judged Rin for being close-minded. Was he really close-minded? Not according to context.

Now I'm fine with the fact that either I misunderstood you or you misunderstood the thread, but the hostility in your response and your not-so-subtle way of calling me an ass (particularly because I was unaware that I was doing something that warranted such a remark) is what's causing me to be incredibly clear about WHY I misunderstood you or you misunderstood the thread. There's no need to continue on about it. We know. There was a disjunct. It's done. It's clear. I know. You know. I still don't understand why you insist on being hostile, nor do I care to know why -- Can you simply please stop needling? I'm willing to drop the issue since it's no longer an issue.