Clickboxer - new key broadcasting software

[stealthy45]

Ok, hello everyone, I've never posted here before but there are a lot of bits of idiocy in this thread that are greatly annoying me and need corrected.
An introduction: I'm stealthy from lavishsoft IRC. I've used InnerSpace for roughly a year and a half, part of that for botting and part not. While the botting part of that does bring a great stigma against IS, it seems pretty much everyone here is overlooking the legitimate uses, much like being unable to see the forest for the trees. For a while now I've been making use of the Ventrilo extension and the IRC extension to enable me to chat in-game through an IS GUI window, and use the VentriloHUD script. Both of these are perfectly legitimate uses (Also see: my unbanned, hand-leveled 67 bloodelf paladin that has been run inside IS since about 63, using ISXIRC and the ventrilo bit) that have nothing to do with gameplay automation.
From Suvega:

You cannot live inside the WoW process space, it is both AGAINST The ToS, and has been defended for a million dollar lawsuit for the case of WoW Glider.

INNERSPACE IS NOT LEGAL. YOUR PLATFORM IS NOT LEGAL. WOWGLIDER USED THIS PLATFORM AS WELL.

I'm sorry, but you've made it fairly obvious you have no idea what you're talking about.

Living in the memory space, and reading and having access to WoW's memory, is directly against the ToS.
For fucks sake, some mod, LOCK THIS FUCKING THREAD. Thx.

Can you guess how many Windows processes (ex. Windows Defender) "have access to WoW's memory"? Guess that makes them illegal. Think before you speak.
Up next, from Xzin:

What I would love would be to be able to have a sort of auxiliary HUD on a mini 8" or 10" monitor that could for example, track things like Vent servers, who is online, your average damage this session, total kills this session, honor gained this session, your latest arena results, etc. Pop up messages when things you need happen. A sort of sidekick feature that would automatically set itself up and automatically display at a glance data. Stuff that is important enough to know but not critical enough to go on the main UI. It would also be great if this information was aggregated across WoW's. This may or may not require an outside interface to allow the WoW sessions to talk together. I know the Bliz API is very limited about writing data although in theory, one could simply have an outside application aggregate/poll the data across a network and compile it in real time into a HUD display.

First off, nice too meet you. I've heard a lot of stories about A-Dzin and Xzin.
A lot of the things you're mentioning are not only possible but pretty simple. The ventrilo display is easily done. Some of that crosses into the grey area. Blizzard would have to determine if reading memory to determine things such as current honor, etc. for another display would violate their Terms of Service, until then it will be in the grey area.

More from Suvega:

Do eet, until then, keep your shady ass wares away from this forum.

Sorry, not trying to vilanify Lax, I just don't want people hawking very shady things on this forum.

We get enough "ZOMG BOTS" as it is, before we start using software which was the, ehem, "platform" for which several bots built themselves on...

Not trying to demonize Lax, eh? Sure made me think otherwise.

Zanthor:

Then why aren't you in every thread about AutoHotKey screaming the same way? This certainly seems to be a very hot spot for you, but it really makes you seem unreasonable.

Glad I wasn't the only one to notice this.

Vyndree:

8) Multiboxers, as a community, are often misassociated with botters. Multiboxers, in general, would prefer that this no longer happens.

... you see where I'm going here?

Yes, and the solution is simple: Don't automate, thanks.

POINT A: Innerspace has the capability of being a platform for bots.

Also see: Any programming language capable of manipulating memory, such as C/C++/C# (the languages most multibox programs were most likely written in).

POINT C: Fussing with WoW as it resides in memory is gray area

Not really. Reading WoW's memory is a grey area, ask on the Customer Service forums before you do something risky.
Part two coming soon

[stealthy45]

And we're back to suvega, unable to pay attention to details (or just unlearned):

Btw, for people getting banned for innerspace (Who claim they wern't using botting software): Check this thread: http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...sid=1&pageNo=1

You're missing something here, let me explain: Loading ISXWoW (which is reads/writes a lot of WoW's memory and has been determined to be against the ToS, and depends on ISXWarden) will get you banned. Those people still had ISXWoW loaded, otherwise Warden wouldn't have picked up on something. It was an honest mistake on their parts, but Blizzard is chosing to not give them the benefit of the doubt because they can't prove they WEREN'T botting, only that they had the dll that makes it possible on InnerSpace loaded.
TL;DR They got banned for ISXWoW, not InnerSpace. ISXWoW will get you banned.

Back to Vyndree:

This is the bit that I'm not so sure about. I could've sworn I saw posts of people who claimed they were banned for IS without the use of botting scripts when playing WoW.

See above.

Untrue.

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...geNo=1&sid=1#8

Fair enough.

Ellay, the friendly admin:

Alright I spoke with Lax, unlocking the thread. Please be civil hereafter, he's open to answer any questions/issues regarding the software.
Less meany sauce! :love:

Agreed, gotta hate when people jump on the hatewagon. That's why I'm posting.

Suribusi:

I don't want to jump on anyones intelligence here, so don't take this that way. But the fact that you believe some random poster on the wow forums...is...interesting. In the CS forums, there is always more than meets the eye to what people "claim" they were doing, or "not" doing. I think you know this already, and might just be choosing things that support your thoughts and ignoring others. Maybe I'm wrong.

Quite right, "welcome to the internet".

Wilbur, another mod:

I'm lost for words with this thread. Several esteemed members of this community have pretty much reduced themselves to salvating morons. You guys really need to do some proper research before you even *THINK* about posting in this thread again, after all, that is what we are all about.

Yeah, I know what you mean.

RobinGBrown:

It doesn't matter how much you keep repeating this or bleating on about the fine distinction between a platform and the bot that uses the platform because it's not relevant to the issue.

You are not trustworthy.

Your opinion is kindly noted and disregarded until you can somehow back it with reason.

The first two questions should answer the legality issue of InnerSpace quite firmly - because if IS attempts to conceal itself or read memory then it is definitely not safe to use.

Please don't make me group you in with suvega, we don't really want that, do we?

1. Does the InnerSpace 'platform' attempt to conceal itself from WoW in any way?

2. Is the Innerspace 'platform' capable of reading or scanning memory/data of WoW in any way?

3. Do people have to pay for Innerspace or Clickboxer?

You'll have to be able to set aside your pretty blatant bias if you want answers.

Ditto, we've all seen your opinion too, and a lot more than 3 times too, it would be nice if you stopped repeating the same thing as well.

Unfortunately, Lax's opinions are backed by fact and logic - more than can be said about yours, from what you have shown us.

Suribusi @ Vyndree:

Apparently not everyone, because all of your questions were answered already in this section of the forums. Maybe of 4th time will help. 8|

-S

We know that, but as I said, she'll have to be able to jump off the hate train at its next stop before she notices.
Up next, part three of my massive wall of text.

[stealthy45]

From Aethon, a new quotee!:

As for Lax's software, I DO support it. I also support Keyclone. I encourage people to try different products and see what they like best. If anyone here is in doubt as to the validity of a particular product, ask on the Blizzard forums, I'm sure sooner or later a Blue will respond. If that Blue's answer isn't good enough for you, email their support, tell them you think product X is ok to use and want them to look if it violates anything. As stated many times on the forums, 1 press, 1 action = ok.

Thank you for demonstrating use of logic and reason, from what I've seen in this thread, it's uncommon around these parts.

And a GM on the forums is not what I would call Blizzard endorsing a product. True, they may work for Blizzard, but it's not the same as a press release stating 'company Q fully backs and supports product Y' they simply say it's 'OK to use at the moment.'

Agreed.

From Sam Deathwalker:

WinEQ2 is a Lax Product (which you PAY for) and is 100percent LEGAL in EQ.

From what I see in this thread IS, by itself, appears to be also legal.

1. It is not hidden from Warden

2. No one who has used it has been banned.

Again I just repeat that it sounds to me the argument made against it would be the exact same argument that because you CAN use the G15 programing software as a platform to violate the TOS then you should not buy any product from Logitech, an argument which I find sophistical to say the least.

Hot damn, two posts in a row from people capable of thinking! Who'da thunk it? ^^

And again from suvega:

LOL I love the analogy, because Blizzard is discriminating against whom? People who use a certain peice of software that they find to be shady?
Stop talking out of your ass Sam, you just make yourself look worse then you already do (which is a pretty hard feat imo)

And the pot calls the kettle black. Your opinion is again noted and disregarded, as it isn't worth anything until you come up with something constructive.

c) Claiming that arguments are coming off as "sad and for once its not sam", and that they are "irrational" but have no counterpoints to the arguements is quite ironic imo

Again, your opinion is worthless, but thanks for being ironic!

Ah boy, another one.
Jrichard:

"Blizzard banned several of us a few years ago for vanilla InnerSpace, just to reverse the bans and give us free time. Some of us have never trusted Blizzard since." as it implies that he doesn't bot.

I'm sorry, but I fail to see the implication?

From lax you see a ton of double talk, which is quite pretty to read, and very little actual answering. Eqjoe seems to be running interference. Then we have the forum moderator who drops into these threads every now and again to insult anyone who speaks up against lax. That's a pretty little setup.

I see no double talk, post quotes.
Again, cite EQJoe's "interference".
It's somewhat sad that you're casting such a negative light on InnerSpace, yet calling out a mod for "insulting anyone who speaks up against lax". Quote this mod for me, would you?

As a platform, does IS allow access to WoW memory space, or read or write to any WoW memory space? I'm not asking if Windows can do it, or if the CPU can do it, I'm asking if IS does it or exposes calls/hooks/fucntions to allow scripts to do it.

WoW doesn't need to allow acces to WoW memory space. Windows already does. There is an extension, ISXGenHack, that has functionality similar to TSearch from what I understand and also allows easy changing of memory. However, this isn't part of the innerspace platform.
I believe InnerSpace does have some sort of capability for modifying memory, but i'm not sure what it is. I simply don't know. It's pretty irrelevant regardless.

Back to Vyndree:

i.e. Is the only REAL differentiation between "you" and "lavish software" useful in order to protect the right hand from what the left hand is doing?

Even if it isn't, will your strong opinion of bias change?

Sorry, big quote.

Quoted from "Lax"
I never said I'm not a representative of my company, I said the product is not a Lavish Software product, and that is what we were discussing.



Actually... this is what you asked in your post. (which I quoted in my response in case you missed it)

Quoted from "Lax"
There are some pretty good arguments against your statements, but I will ask you if you feel that an act of Lavish Software is an act of me, Joe Thaler, as an individual (note that I have employees who also act for Lavish Software). If not, then why is an act of me, Joe Thaler, automatically an act of Lavish Software?

I'm sorry, I believe you missed an important word there "why". He's asking why a personal act is automatically assumed to be an act of his business, not if it is.

Back to jrichard:

Your answers are slick and well prepared, try honest short and succint sometime.

Wow, the bias in this post is well evident.

You said no, then qualified that answer, then asked a question. If you had simply said no i would be satisfied. But when i look at your response i see nothing except evasion. You're the one who hurts your own credibility. Your answers are slick and well prepared, try honest short and succint sometime. Even the next to last line of that post doesn't actually simply say no, it asks another question without actually saying anything. To answer your last question, YES, everything about that post tells me all i need to know about using your software.

I'm sorry if this is just a shortcoming of your community, but generally people try to back up their statements and/or claims to give them substance. You know, so that there's a reason to believe it? Ex. coming up with PROOF when some wise person claimed the earth was not flat nor the center of the universe?
I didn't perceive any evasion there, just a reply.
If by "slick and well prepared", you mean "prepared with use of thought and logic", then yes, his answers are slick and well prepared. You people are capable of thinking OUTSIDE the box here, right?

And we have a pissing contest about semantics at the tail of the thread.

Ok, I think we're up to date

[Vyndree]

I really dont see the point. Lets assume he made 100 illegal botting programs... I really dont see where that has anything at all to do with wheather or not his current product violates the TOS. Either the current product does or it does not. If it does then it should not be used if it does not then it can be used.

If Microsoft made 100 programs that could put you in jail, and 1 program that didn't -- would you buy a product from Microsoft and support them even though they make 100 programs you're uncomfortable with?

It's the decision of the buyer -- for sure -- but to me I would prefer (especially since there are other readily-available options out there) to buy one from the company who makes NO programs that could get me in trouble.

[jrichard]

Then let's hear about why isxwarden was distributed from ismods.com, a domain which carries this whois information:

Registrant:
Lavish Software

PO Box 90012
Wyoming, Michigan 49519
United States

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: ISMODS.COM
Created on: 09-Dec-04
Expires on: 09-Dec-08
Last Updated on: 06-Nov-06

Administrative Contact:
Thaler, Joe lax@lavishsoft.com
Lavish Software
PO Box 90012
Wyoming, Michigan 49519
United States
0000000000

Technical Contact:
Thaler, Joe lax@lavishsoft.com
Lavish Software
PO Box 90012
Wyoming, Michigan 49519
United States
0000000000

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.SHELLPOWER.NET
NS2.SHELLPOWER.NET

[stealthy45]

Sam DeathWalker:

I really dont see the point. Lets assume he made 100 illegal botting programs... I really dont see where that has anything at all to do with wheather or not his current product violates the TOS. Either the current product does or it does not. If it does then it should not be used if it does not then it can be used.

Lax is going to go where the money goes and for sure MORE PEOPLE will pay him for a product that is legel and helps them win, then a product that is illegal and helps them win.

I'm defending his postion and I don't have any ax to grind one way or the other, right now I use and recommend Keyclone. If Lax comes up with a superior product that is legal Ill use that, if he dosn't then I stay with Keyclone. Fairly simple.

I agree, but in the words of a particular mod, these are our opinions, biased or unbiased.
I can't blame him for wanting a paycheck either. I'm also glad he helps people out so much - were it not for the IS community I probably wouldn't have started learning C# and decided to go to college for programming/networking.

[stealthy45]

Jrichard again:

Then let's here about why isxwarden was distributed from ismods.com, a domain which carries this whois information:

I'd say the domain name should be fairly obvious. Let me highlight the interesting part:
ismods. I'll assume you don't know what a mod is, so let me include a definition:
n.

1. The act of modifying or the condition of being modified.
2. A result of modifying.
3. A small alteration, adjustment, or limitation.
4. Biology. Any of the changes in an organism caused by environment or activity and not genetically transmissable to offspring.
5. Linguistics.
   1. A change undergone by a word that is borrowed from another language.
   2. A phonological change undergone by a word or morpheme when it is used in a construction, as the change of will to 'll in they'll

Which is to say, not stock/vanilla IS stuff.

Edit: A lot of games provide some degree of support for modifications, ex. The Elder Scrolls series. Why shouldn't InnerSpace support customization/extensibility?

[jrichard]

and over and over we've heard how lavish software has nothing to do with isxwarden, yet that's who register the domain.
The isxwow site lists their irc channel to be irc.lavishsoft.com

wow, yeah i see what you mean, lavishsoft has nothing to do with botting.

[Lax]

Then let's hear about why isxwarden was distributed from ismods.com, a domain which carries this whois information:

Registrant:
Lavish Software

PO Box 90012
Wyoming, Michigan 49519
United States

Registered through: GoDaddy.com, Inc. (http://www.godaddy.com)
Domain Name: ISMODS.COM
Created on: 09-Dec-04
Expires on: 09-Dec-08
Last Updated on: 06-Nov-06

Administrative Contact:
Thaler, Joe lax@lavishsoft.com
Lavish Software
PO Box 90012
Wyoming, Michigan 49519
United States
0000000000

Technical Contact:
Thaler, Joe lax@lavishsoft.com
Lavish Software
PO Box 90012
Wyoming, Michigan 49519
United States
0000000000

Domain servers in listed order:
NS1.SHELLPOWER.NET
NS2.SHELLPOWER.NET

As I explained to Blizzard's attorney at my deposition: The intent is that ismods.com could be run by anyone, it is a site to host Inner Space community content that is not from Lavish Software. The fact that I host it has little to do with the Lavish Software site, and whether Lavish Software markets or produces it. Again, as I have explained, nowhere will you find ISXWarden marketed on the Lavish Software web site.

[Lax]

and over and over we've heard how lavish software has nothing to do with isxwarden, yet that's who register the domain.
The isxwow site lists their irc channel to be irc.lavishsoft.com

wow, yeah i see what you mean, lavishsoft has nothing to do with botting.

irc.lavishsoft.com is an IRC server, it also has #macroquest, but MacroQuest is not a Lavish product. Having a channel on irc.lavishsoft.com does not imply an endorsement by Lavish. If you wanted to go on irc.lavishsoft.com and create your own channel, you could too! You're up in arms about literally nothing.