I didn't speak with a GM and...

[glo]

Glider loses its wings
lax [2006.11.15 10:52]

Glider has once again made the case for its customers to not believe in Merc (Merc, feel free to send me an email if you want to license a proven anti-Warden solution that won't require your customers have a Lavish subscription, or of course, feel free to use WardenLink which your customers can have the option of using and protecting your work as long as they have a Lavish subscription). Their forums are packed with posts about everyone being banned

Lax are you claiming this is not a direct quote taken from the ISMODS.com forums which you are the admin of and have in the past used to promote your innerspace utility as a safer alternative to Glider? Further along in this post we come to this gem..

Interestingly, a couple weeks ago Blizzard pushed a new Warden and the Glider community was seemingly oblivious. Meanwhile, our community was well aware of the updates. I was chuckling to myself, sitting there in a parking lot with my laptop, working on updating ISXWarden.

I understand you may be used to dealing with a simpler type like your average botter or wow forum user, this is a slightly different crowd. Coming here claiming innocence and safety for your product was probably the wrong way to go. Perhaps advising that you were trying to reform your program to be a boxing tool that complies with the TOS would have been a better approach.

At this point you will have alienated quite a few future customers and probably a few you already had. I for one wouldn't use your product even if it were free as you seem to think you are smarter then everyone else and there is no telling what tricks you might add that blizz would disapprove of.

[thinus]

1. The web site has not changed, certainly not in the last 24 hours other than the new post on the front page news. In fact if you looked at anything at all, the new version of the site has b8een up for over a month now. And even a month ago, I have no idea what page you were looking at. I don't know where you get off calling me a liar and a cheat. All I'm seeing from you is personal attacks (ad hominem fallacy, look it up. in fact, here's a link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem ).

I am not the only one that saw the other site. I will be doing a complete sweep of my system however cause it looks suspiciously like some phishing might have been going on. I am perfectly aware what an ad hominem attack is and the reason I am attacking you is because your integrity is at stake. It is a *trust* issue. I don't trust you and I don't trust your software and will advise anyone that asks me to stay far away from it.

2. "Scripts" to plug into "Innerspace"? ISXWarden was written in early 2006 because my customers were using Inner Space with World of Warcraft, in conjunction with ISXWoW. And those people got banned. I wrote ISXWarden and distributed it for free, completely separate from my company, to help prevent my company's customers from getting banned from the biggest game anywhere.

You developed an addon for your cheating clients so they won't get caught. Well done, have a cookie. And you wonder why I don't trust you.

3. You hate me? Hate me for what? Do you even know what you hate me for, or do you really think that I'm a "bot writer" as you claimed in one of your first posts on dual-boxing.com?
"I really don't see anyone up in arms except maybe the bot writer who wrote the original heavily biased article. Biased as the article was it still touched on very real privacy issues which I happen to partly agree with."

One of my 1st posts? Lol. I think you might be confused. And yes, I think you are tainted by either bot writing or supporting your client base with their bot writing. You already admit that addons are used with Innerspace to cheat and you just wash your hands and pretend that you are completely innocent. Oh no, we are not cheating, but here are all the tools you need. In fact, we will even throw in a bonus to protect you from Warden.

And the funny thing about the article on my blog about Warden, is that the most popular response was that I was complaining because I was going to lose money or something on it. That update to Warden wasn't even aimed at me or ISXWarden. I don't get the heavily biased part either, because it wasn't really an opinion article, it was describing technical details about a software change, and why the change is potentially dangerous. That's like going through http://www.securityfocus.com/vulnerabilities and finding Windows vulnerabilities and claiming that the reports are biased because the person reporting it prefers Linux. And the fact that I wrote ISXWarden isn't exactly a secret or hidden from On Warden readers.

I'm sorry, I couldn't really care less about your blog and don't know who you are replying to here. It seems you are confusing me with someone else yet again.

Oh and "Not really, but it is the paranoid that ensures we enjoy the freedom that we do and I don't dismiss them out of hand."

And this could be taken in the context of some of us being paranoid about you and your motives to ensure we continue to enjoy the freedom of multi-boxing in wow.

Lastly, I really don't care if you would rather have the community get along without me. You obviously have no clue who I am or what I do, so your opinion on me shouldn't really matter to anyone else either. What have YOU done for the community? Besides spreading your own FUD and lashing out at people who actually do something to help, that is.

Why don't you go read my posts. And any help you might even have contributed is clouded by the fact that your tools are used to cheat in online games and circumvent anti-cheating tools. Oh, I am sorry, people have to load a script to do it, even if the script is automatically loaded for them.

Seriously, why did you write the Warden mod? What are you doing here?

[Wilbur]

Wow, this is seriously Lax? The guy responsible for macroquest, the cheating program that ruined EverQuest?

Just on principle, I don't want to be involved in a community that takes even a neutral stance and gives him the chance to peddle his wares - even the "clean" ones.

And for the own safety of my accounts, I'd rather avoid the scrutiny of blizzard by posting on the same forums that he does. I know everything I'm doing is on the up and up, but I'd rather not have to talk my way out of an overzealous 72 hr ban.

No thanks, peace out.

Macroquest was written by Plazmic. Get your facts straight, idiot. Lax and a team of developers coded Macroquest2 when it became apparent that Plazmic was no longer going to continue the project. Its been open source since then. You guys may wish to read the community rules again before posting.

[Lax]

[quote='glo',index.php?page=Thread&postID=133507#po st133507]I understand you may be used to dealing with a simpler type like your average botter or wow forum user, this is a slightly different crowd. Coming here claiming innocence and safety for your product was probably the wrong way to go. Perhaps advising that you were trying to reform your program to be a boxing tool that complies with the TOS would have been a better approach.

At this point you will have alienated quite a few future customers and probably a few you already had. I for one wouldn't use your product even if it were free as you seem to think you are smarter then everyone else and there is no telling what tricks you might add that blizz would disapprove of. [/quote]My program is not being "reformed". Indeed, I posted about ISXWarden on that site, and I even distributed ISXWarden on that site, but you're still trying to claim that Inner Space is something that it's not. The fact that a separate program exists for a given platform does not make the platform a violation of the ToS. No reform was or is necessary for Inner Space to not violate the ToS. You could make the same argument you just made, about Glider being available for Windows, and because of that, Windows is a botting program and violates the World of Warcraft ToS. Time to stop using Windows! You can bash me all you want about "thinking I'm smarter than everyone else" but you're the one making that claim, I am only here to provide correct information where you and others have it incorrect. So I'm sorry you feel that way, you don't need to keep responding, Glo. And yes, partly because of that post I, in fact, made a business deal with Glider to help them with Warden, and I sat in a fun little room with Blizzard's attorney while he asked me questions. I'd say that a pretty good amount of business deals are negotiated because "one party thinks theyre smarter than the other party" (as I suppose you would put it) in some respect. But saying that "there is no telling what tricks I might add that blizz would disapprove of" can be said about anyone. On the other hand, why would I alienate my own customers by "adding tricks that blizz would disapprove of"? That sounds like a pretty poor business decision. It must be frightening in the world you live in.

Thinus:
[quote] One of my 1st posts? Lol. I think you might be confused. And yes, I think you are tainted by either bot writing or supporting your client base with their bot writing. You already admit that addons are used with Innerspace to cheat and you just wash your hands and pretend that you are completely innocent. Oh no, we are not cheating, but here are all the tools you need. In fact, we will even throw in a bonus to protect you from Warden. [/quote]I never said that "I am completely innocent". I said that Inner Space is not a violation of the Terms of Service. Inner Space is a neutral platform, it is open-ended by nature. Anyone could write code for it, and do whatever they want. It's not up to me who can do what when using Inner Space with what game. Even if I tried, it would be just as much a cat and mouse game as Blizzard has with Warden, or anti-virus and anti-spyware distributors have with viruses and spyware. There is no end in sight. I would prefer to spend my time improving and developing the platform rather than trying to lock my own customers out of it.
[quote] I'm sorry, I couldn't really care less about your blog and don't know who you are replying to here. It seems you are confusing me with someone else yet again. [/quote]The posts I quoted you from:
[url='http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&postID=16688&highlight=#post 16688']Has Warden Gone Too Far? I think so. Warden = Rootkit[/url]
Has Warden Gone Too Far? I think so. Warden = Rootkit

How am I confused exactly? Are you not you now? Were you not talking about my blog post with everyone else in the thread?

Why don't you go read my posts. And any help you might even have contributed is clouded by the fact that your tools are used to cheat in online games and circumvent anti-cheating tools. Oh, I am sorry, people have to load a script to do it, even if the script is automatically loaded for them.

Seriously, why did you write the Warden mod? What are you doing here?

Yep, I've been making "cheating" tools for over 15 years. I've also been making "non-cheating" tools, and tools that are capable of being used for both. But whether something is considered cheating or not is entirely subjective. In Dark Age of Camelot, people say that multi-boxing at all is cheating. You'd be surprised how many people here have actually "cheated" in World of Warcraft, they will just choose not to mention it because they would get harrassed by people like you, and this is not the community to discuss cheating habits. Personally, I play the old fashioned way. I used to automate text-based MUDs all the time, however, and did in fact sell scripts to other people to automate them, and even sold editors for the MUDs.

You say "the script is automatically loaded for them", but ISXWarden (which is not a script) has never been distributed as part of Inner Space, you would have to learn about it elsewhere, and go elsewhere to get it, and only then would you have any protection from Warden. It would only automatically load if the user had purposefully looked for it, downloaded and installed it.

And no, I don't "wonder why you don't trust me". In fact, when I wrote WinEQ many people didn't initially trust it either. As I said in my previous posts, and I will reiterate now, I'm not here to convince you that Inner Space is safe. You guys keep posting more and more misinformation and random personal attacks against me, and I am attempting to correct the misinformation. I don't care if you think that I am evil or Inner Space is evil.

[Wilbur]

I have previously botted, I have also made and released scripts that allow people to bot. Do you all hate me? :-(

In all honesty, I think if some of you bothered reading a bit about innerspace you'd quite plainly see how powerful a tool it is.

I'd also like all these personal attacks to stop. Now.

[glo]

I have previously botted, I have also made and released scripts that allow people to bot. Do you all hate me? :-(

In all honesty, I think if some of you bothered reading a bit about innerspace you'd quite plainly see how powerful a tool it is.

I'd also like all these personal attacks to stop. Now.

Other then you calling someone an idiot for mistaking a program for it's predecessor which personal attacks are you referring to? I for one was irritated by the fact this guy comes here claiming it's safe to use his 3rd party utility when he can in fact not guarantee this one day to the next just like any other author.

As far as botting goes you do whatever you like but I really don't appreciate it being promoted by a mod on a site that I really like visiting.

Either way take care, I'll be leaving this thread.

[thinus]

I have previously botted, I have also made and released scripts that allow people to bot. Do you all hate me? :-(

In all honesty, I think if some of you bothered reading a bit about innerspace you'd quite plainly see how powerful a tool it is.

I'd also like all these personal attacks to stop. Now.

And I won't buy multi-boxing tools from you either. And if you want people not to make personal attacks perhaps you shouldn't call people idiots like in your previous post. You seem to have some personal connection with this guy and you are not being very objective.

If you want to buy and use software from someone who has been "making "cheating" tools for over 15 years" then be my guest. I am just pointing out the risk.

[Wilbur]

Other then you calling someone an idiot for mistaking a program for it's predecessor which personal attacks are you referring to? I for one was irritated by the fact this guy comes here claiming it's safe to use his 3rd party utility when he can in fact not guarantee this one day to the next just like any other author.

As far as botting goes you do whatever you like but I really don't appreciate it being promoted by a mod on a site that I really like visiting.

Either way take care, I'll be leaving this thread.

At no point have I premoted botting. If you read a little further into what I'm saying is that you can't 100% judge people on past activities. I don't condone/endorse/whatever botting, Its against the EULA, but I do think we should see what Lax (or anyone else who feels like writing Multiboxer extensions) comes up with before we light the pyre.

And I won't buy multi-boxing tools from you either. And if you want people not to make personal attacks perhaps you shouldn't call people idiots like in your previous post. You seem to have some personal connection with this guy and you are not being very objective.

Connection? I've used his software in the past, thats about it. I'd be willing to bet a fair few OTHER respected members of this forum have as well. As far as objective goes, I look at it like this. The software in question, is currently peerless in terms of functionality and flexibility, the only real downside is its association with extensions that are used for developing bots and other nefarious programs/scripts. Do I see this as a problem? Yes, a little bit, but I think it also demonstrates how truely flexible the software is.

Additionally, I reserve the right to call people twats/wankers/tossers/idiots if they don't do their research before posting.

If you want to buy and use software from someone who has been "making "cheating" tools for over 15 years" then be my guest. I am just pointing out the risk.

You think none of the other people who have made Multiboxing software have never made automation software for games? Interesting.

[Lax]

Other then you calling someone an idiot for mistaking a program for it's predecessor which personal attacks are you referring to? I for one was irritated by the fact this guy comes here claiming it's safe to use his 3rd party utility when he can in fact not guarantee this one day to the next just like any other author.

I never said it was any safer than any other utility, you're putting words in my mouth. In fact, I explicitly said they can ban for anything whenever they'd like to, including KeyClone, and including my software. That's all "safe" means, is that people have not been getting banned for it. Therefore, KeyClone is considered safe, and Inner Space is considered safe. Except that this appears to be a religious discussion whereby your religion is right and everyone else's religion is wrong and must be eradicated. What I am claiming is that Inner Space does not violate the Terms of Service. There is a big difference, and I thought I had made that clear in my posts.

[skarlot]

just wanna chip in...
it has to be Lax because, he specifically gives the example of me turning to him for a question... in this case, about DLL hooking and what Warden might do to my program if it starts faking cursor positions, which it (optionlly) does... seeing as a bot program might attempt to do this. I don't think this kind of feature is in violation of the ToS, but as far as Blizzard and Warden goes, I knew that posting on Blizzards forums or directly wouldn't help me, but in this case Lax gave me some info. Yes, I didn't mention that, because I'm just not sure about what Innerspace is all about, whether it has been banned, and also because of perceived (or real) association with botting. it's been on my mind tho, to look into what Innerspace might offer, if I could interface with it with new project I'm doing... just a thought. Useful things would be reading global cool down, spell cool downs, etc 8o

I'm gonna stay out of any ethical debate, it's up to the individual. I don't cheat and wouldn't run ISXWarden, but I don't mind pushing it a bit. Blizzard probably don't care since they don't seem to pay any attention to my bug posts/multiboxing suggestions on their forums. I don't relaly think they see the value/fun of their game at that level and spend too much time with silly movies and card games, unfortunately.