[WoW] PVE-->PVP xfers now allowed!

[Turenn]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't all the top raiding guild on PvP server? And isn't it just those guilds that progress the fastest? I would think it would be logical to assume that people that prefer PvP sever are more competative minded people, and wouldn't that spike a greater willingness to progress faster?

I personally think that the diffeculty of raiding doesn't have anything to do with which server you are but rather the skill of the raid.

And please as multiboxers you should all be ashamed about talking about someone getting an adventage for transfering to a PvP server. If there ever was someone with an advantage on any server it would be everyone on this forum.

[JonnyB]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't all the top raiding guild on PvP server? And isn't it just those guilds that progress the fastest? I would think it would be logical to assume that people that prefer PvP sever are more competative minded people, and wouldn't that spike a greater willingness to progress faster?

Ding Ding we have a winner! As a matter of fact on US realms, 8 of the top 10 guilds are from PVP realms (# 3 and # 10 being from PVE servers). if you just go by realm rankings (I'm using Wowjutsu's rankings) - 7 of the top 10 realms are PVP (#5 / # 9 and # 10 are the PVE ones)

Similar stats on the EU side, 8 of the top 10 guilds from PVP servers ( # 5 and # 7 from PVE realms) - and 9 of the top 10 realms are pvp realms ( The # 7 spot is a pve server)

Not easy to conclude if its just because the better players flock to the PVP realms or they are just more motivated once they actually get going, but clearly PVP is not a limiting factor in PVE progression.

[Elektroz]

Worldwide, it's like 40 of the top 50 are on a pvp server

and out of the top 10, spot # 8 is a pve server.

getting my facts from bosskillers.com

not sure how reputable that source is..

[Vyndree]

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't all the top raiding guild on PvP server? And isn't it just those guilds that progress the fastest? I would think it would be logical to assume that people that prefer PvP sever are more competative minded people, and wouldn't that spike a greater willingness to progress faster?

I agree -- if it were the case that more "competitive minded" folks rolled on PvP servers, then PvP servers would have a higher level of progression. However, you're not comparing apples to apples.

Take two equivalent guilds -- both have the same raid times (let's say 6pm to 10 pm), both have the same skill level, and both have the same raid attendence. One guild is on a PvP server, and the other is on a PvE server.

Now the PvP server guild has to deal with interruptions like PvPers at the meeting stone, people ganking them while they're farming mats and consumables, that sort of thing. The PvE guild does not have to deal with that.

If both are equivalently skilled and on a total equal level than each other, with one being on a PvE server and the other being on a PvP server -- which one will attempt, learn, and down the boss faster?



Now if you assume that folks who might not be as stubborn and competitive roll on PvE servers, then you're effectively saying that, because of a uncontrollable personality trait which affects their ability to raid at a same-level skill as the PvP server, it is fair to allow them a handicap. Not only that, they are allowed their handicap until such period that they decide to have a personality switch and reroll on a PvP server...


Now assume that both groups were notified that, at any time, they can now transfer from a PvE server to a PvP server. IF super-focused highly competitive personality traits that draw people to PvP realms are now given the ability to transfer between PvE and PvP servers at whim, would it not make sense (to the competitive PvPer's mind) to roll unconfronted in safety on a PvE server, gain the handicap advantage that was "intended" for the normally the not-so-enthusiastic PvE personality, and then take that advantage back with them to the PvP realm....?


Basically, if you're saying "hey, it's OK because PvP-server mentality folks are just more skilled than PvE-server mentality folks", then you open up another HUGE can of worms by accepting that PvE players are less skilled. I, personally, do not agree with that assumption -- alot of skill goes into raiding -- and grats to those who were top on the PvE progression list. But just because you happen to be infinitely more skilled than the other guy doesn't make the other guy deserving of a handicap. Skill is skill, and should be measured on an equal level.

If those high-progression guilds were on a PvE server, with no competition for materials or random PvP encounters pre, post, and mid-raid -- they would undoubtedly complete bosses at a faster rate given their skill level and the advantages that a PvE server brings.


Out of curiosity -- we have statistics that guilds on PvP servers are consistently pulling world firsts or near-world-firsts. Does anyone have statistics for the number of PvP guilds in Sunwell content? The number of PvE guilds in Sunwell content? The percentage of PvP players doing Sunwell content? The percentage of PvE players doing Sunwell content?

Just because they happen to be first doesn't mean they are a majority.

First = skill. (from what I understand most of these "server first" guilds already practice exhaustively on the PTRs, so I hesitate to even say that -- massive amounts of dedication, skill, and more importantly time go into world/server firsts)
Majority = accessibility

[Vyndree]

[quote='Elektroz',index.php?page=Thread&postID=1206 54#post120654]Worldwide, it's like 40 of the top 50 are on a pvp server

and out of the top 10, spot # 8 is a pve server.

getting my facts from bosskillers.com

not sure how reputable that source is..[/quote]


I'm not really sure how reputable bosskillers.com is either, but I searched around and found a [url='http://www.bosskillers.com/cgi-bin/bbguild/index.cgi'] advanced guild search list[/url].
http://www.bosskillers.com/cgi-bin/b...sid=JBTpb83o7c


I did a few calculations (but had to stop after the database query lag became a bit unbearable)... "top 50 guilds" is by no means a representative sample size of the entire raiding guild population.

• 63305 Results Found -- PvE guilds
• 89554 Results Found -- PvP guilds
  
• 152859 total guilds (PvE + PvP)

What this means is that there are MORE raiding guilds on PvP servers than there are on PvE servers.

However, this means little to nothing since I don't know...

1. What the overall population of PvP servers is compared to PvE servers
2. How many PvE servers there are in comparison to PvP (I could find this out, but I'm lazy)

Let's look at the top 10% of all guilds via Bosskillers' census on guild raid progression...

1 thru 15285 = top 10%


7044 PvE guilds
8241 PvP guilds

On first glance, it looks like there are MORE PvP guilds than there are PvE guilds represented in the top bracket of raid progression. However, a closer look reveals that this is not the case...

7044 PvE guilds in the top 10% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.111270831 = ~11%
8241 PvP guilds in the top 10% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.092022690 = ~9%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~11%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~9%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 10% of raid progression worldwide.

• Delta between PvE and PvP: 2%, in favor of PvE guilds
• PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +1% :thumbup:
• PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -1% :thumbdown:

But that's just the top 10% of all raid progression, which is the elite of the elite. You know, the server firsts and whatnot.

What about the top 20% of all raid guilds?

1 thru 30570 = top 20%

14435 PvE guilds in the top 20% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.228023063 = ~23%
16135 PvP guilds in the top 20% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.180170623 = ~18%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~23%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~18%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 20% of raid progression worldwide.

• Delta between PvE and PvP: 5%, in favor of PvE guilds
• PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +3% :thumbup:
• PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -2% :thumbdown:

Surely, it must start to even out by 30%... I mean, the majority of PvP servers can't be filled with either world first raid guilds and karazhan farmers... right?...... right???

1 thru 45855 = top 30%

21264 PvE guilds in the top 30% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.335897638 = ~33%
24591 PvP guilds in the top 30% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.274594099 = ~27%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~33%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~27%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 30% of raid progression worldwide.

• Delta between PvE and PvP: 6%, in favor of PvE guilds
• PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +3% :thumbup:
• PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -3% :thumbdown:

If I try to query for the top 40% of all PvE and PvP guilds at this point, Bosskillers starts timing out mid-query. So I started having to query for the 30-40% and just add it on to the previous number... Don't anyone ever say I wasn't resourceful.

1 thru 61140 = top 40%

27493 PvE guilds in the top 40% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.434294289 = ~43%
33648 PvP guilds in the top 40% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.375728610 = ~37%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~43%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~37%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 40% of raid progression worldwide.

• Delta between PvE and PvP: 6%, in favor of PvE guilds
• PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +3% :thumbup:
• PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -3% :thumbdown:

Surely... SURELY the top 50% of the guilds will show a more even number??? Right now PvP servers seem pretty fail compared to PvE...

1 thru 76429 = top 50%

34265 PvE guilds in the top 50% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.541268462 = ~54%
42166 PvP guilds in the top 50% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.470844406 = ~47%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~54%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~47%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 50% of raid progression worldwide.

• Delta between PvE and PvP: 7%, in favor of PvE guilds
• PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +4% :thumbup:
• PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -3% :thumbdown:

Ideally, this figure should look something like a figure-8 -- with PvP guilds showing more representation at the "lower" end ("attumen"/100%) of the chart, since there is higher representation from PvE guilds at the "higher" end ("Kil'Jaeden"/10%).

My numbers start getting screwy at this point (rounding errors), and Bosskiller's database probably hates me... In any case, I think I've proven this point:
Of all raiding guilds, PvP server guilds are less likely to be one of the top progressed guilds. This does not mean that PvP guilds are UNABLE to get world firsts -- however, they are statistically less likely to succeed in comparison to PvE guilds. Pull a random PvP guild out of a hat of all known PvP raid guilds, and you're going to hit a kara badge farmer more than if you were to pull a PvE guild out of a hat of all known PvE raid guilds. You might hit a random lucky lotto winner and get a world first Kil'jaeden PvP guild -- but chances are... you won't overall.


Note: I'm no expert on where BossKillers gets its data, but since the top 40 guilds data was presented from BossKillers, I used a consistent source for my data.

[Turenn]

advanced guild search list[/url].
http://www.bosskillers.com/cgi-bin/b...sid=JBTpb83o7c


I did a few calculations (but had to stop after the database query lag became a bit unbearable)... "top 50 guilds" is by no means a representative sample size of the entire raiding guild population.

• 63305 Results Found -- PvE guilds
• 89554 Results Found -- PvP guilds
  
• 152859 total guilds (PvE + PvP)

What this means is that there are MORE raiding guilds on PvP servers than there are on PvE servers.

However, this means little to nothing since I don't know...

1. What the overall population of PvP servers is compared to PvE servers
2. How many PvE servers there are in comparison to PvP (I could find this out, but I'm lazy)

Let's look at the top 10% of all guilds via Bosskillers' census on guild raid progression...

1 thru 15285 = top 10%


7044 PvE guilds
8241 PvP guilds

On first glance, it looks like there are MORE PvP guilds than there are PvE guilds represented in the top bracket of raid progression. However, a closer look reveals that this is not the case...

7044 PvE guilds in the top 10% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.111270831 = ~11%
8241 PvP guilds in the top 10% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.092022690 = ~9%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~11%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~9%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 10% of raid progression worldwide.

• Delta between PvE and PvP: 2%, in favor of PvE guilds
• PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +1% :thumbup:
• PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -1% :thumbdown:

But that's just the top 10% of all raid progression, which is the elite of the elite. You know, the server firsts and whatnot.

What about the top 20% of all raid guilds?

1 thru 30570 = top 20%

14435 PvE guilds in the top 20% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.228023063 = ~23%
16135 PvP guilds in the top 20% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.180170623 = ~18%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~23%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~18%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 20% of raid progression worldwide.

• Delta between PvE and PvP: 5%, in favor of PvE guilds
• PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +3% :thumbup:
• PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -2% :thumbdown:

Surely, it must start to even out by 30%... I mean, the majority of PvP servers can't be filled with either world first raid guilds and karazhan farmers... right?...... right???

1 thru 45855 = top 30%

21264 PvE guilds in the top 30% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.335897638 = ~33%
24591 PvP guilds in the top 30% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.274594099 = ~27%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~33%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~27%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 30% of raid progression worldwide.

• Delta between PvE and PvP: 6%, in favor of PvE guilds
• PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +3% :thumbup:
• PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -3% :thumbdown:

If I try to query for the top 40% of all PvE and PvP guilds at this point, Bosskillers starts timing out mid-query. So I started having to query for the 30-40% and just add it on to the previous number... Don't anyone ever say I wasn't resourceful.

1 thru 61140 = top 40%

27493 PvE guilds in the top 40% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.434294289 = ~43%
33648 PvP guilds in the top 40% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.375728610 = ~37%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~43%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~37%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 40% of raid progression worldwide.

• Delta between PvE and PvP: 6%, in favor of PvE guilds
• PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +3% :thumbup:
• PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -3% :thumbdown:

Surely... SURELY the top 50% of the guilds will show a more even number??? Right now PvP servers seem pretty fail compared to PvE...

1 thru 76429 = top 50%

34265 PvE guilds in the top 50% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.541268462 = ~54%
42166 PvP guilds in the top 50% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.470844406 = ~47%

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~54%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~47%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 50% of raid progression worldwide.

• Delta between PvE and PvP: 7%, in favor of PvE guilds
• PVE server delta between ideal average of 10%: +4% :thumbup:
• PvP server delta between ideal average of 10%: -3% :thumbdown:

Ideally, this figure should look something like a figure-8 -- with PvP guilds showing more representation at the "lower" end ("attumen"/100%) of the chart, since there is higher representation from PvE guilds at the "higher" end ("Kil'Jaeden"/10%).

My numbers start getting screwy at this point (rounding errors), and Bosskiller's database probably hates me... In any case, I think I've proven this point:
Of all raiding guilds, PvP server guilds are less likely to be one of the top progressed guilds. This does not mean that PvP guilds are UNABLE to get world firsts -- however, they are statistically less likely to succeed in comparison to PvE guilds. Pull a random PvP guild out of a hat of all known PvP raid guilds, and you're going to hit a kara badge farmer more than if you were to pull a PvE guild out of a hat of all known PvE raid guilds. You might hit a random lucky lotto winner and get a world first Kil'jaeden PvP guild -- but chances are... you won't overall.


Note: I'm no expert on where BossKillers gets its data, but since the top 40 guilds data was presented from BossKillers, I used a consistent source for my data.

Jesus Christ lady

[Saevio]

7044 PvE guilds in the top 10% / 63305 total PvE guilds = 0.111270831 = ~11%
8241 PvP guilds in the top 10% / 89554 total PvP guilds = 0.092022690 = ~9%[/font]

Conclusion: More PvE guilds (~11%) :thumbup: than PvP guilds (~9%) :thumbdown: are represented in the top 10% of raid progression worldwide.[/quote]For those percentage calculations, shouldn't you be using the total number of guilds, (ie. 152859) and not just the totals for PvE/PvP guilds?

So shouldn't it be:

7044 PvE guilds in the top 10% / 152859 total guilds = 0.046 = ~4.6%
8241 PvP guilds in the top 10% / 152859 total guilds = 0.053 = ~5.3%

Because otherwise, the numbers and the percentages don't match up, you can't say that there are more PvE guilds in the top 10% because there simply aren't, there are 1197 more PvP guilds in the top 10% and more PvP guilds overall, the percentages mean little when talking about more and less.

My numbers above show that out of the top 10% raiding guilds, 5.3% are from PvP servers, and 4.6% are from PvE servers (the last 0.1% was probably lost when rounding).

[Naysayer]

The hardest part of a raid is actually getting into the instance :P

nuff said

[OzPhoenix]

Personally I support the change, only because Blizzard already knocked a hole in the wall, when they allowed selective PvE--->PvP transfers a while back to correct some glaring Faction imbalances on some PvP Servers. To me the policy should be all or nothing, either PvE--->PvP is never allowed - ever - or it's open slather.

I was hugely annoyed when the opened up Aman'Thul (PvE) to Thurassian (PvP) (both Oceanic) recently, as I had been levelled a 5-box team on Thur, but was in no way at all going to put with being ganked by people who hadn't had to go through the PvP levelling process.

Still, being mostly focused on PvE, I don't intend on transferring. I am hoping the Lake Wintersgrasp works out well in WotLK, because then we'll have a useful whole-zone to go to when we do want to PvP, and if it does work out that way, I expect to have the best of both worlds. Zones to farm, instance etc when I want to PvE, and somewhere to go when I want to PvP that will be an auto-flag territory.

[zanthor]

The hardest part of a raid is actually getting into the instance :P

nuff said

Ding ding ding.... we have a winner.

I've been in PVE raiding since early retail and I can say I've never seen that outside an instance. I like my carebear server for raiding, it's nice and safe and I don't have to worry about getting PWTN when I afk at a meeting stone...