[WotLK] Bloodlust/Heroism change - no more round robin

[Vyndree]

I didn't say anything about the population benefitting. I said that Blizzard continues to change the game in reaction to arena and high-end raiding. If Blizzard didn't want TOW to stack all this time they could have changed it in any one of 30 patches since TBC came out, but they haven't.

I wasn't necessarily using the population as the reason for blizzard's tweaks, just as an extreme example of why class stacking is negatively impacting the raiding community.

As a sunwell raider, it's HARD to find decent (i.e. smart) people who know how to play their class. It's made harder by the fact that you sometimes HAVE to choose the "ideal" group composition for a certain fights.

As an example, stacking shaman in certain fights means you'll take a less skilled shaman over a more skilled warlock or mage -- despite the fact that shamans are harder to come by due to population size -- because the mechanics of the fight tell you that "you need more AoE heals" or "you need 8 healers, but also keep up with the dps". Shaman were ideal because not only were they great healers, but when put in a dps group they also uberbuffed dps through heroism (not to mention totems).

You're right -- if Blizz didn't want 3% hit and 3% crit to stack up to 5 times in a 5 elemental shaman party, they would have changed it ages ago.

They're changing it now -- but it's no longer 3% hit and 3% crit. It's no longer limited to just 5 elemental shaman in a party, max. It's now raid-wide, and it's now +damage and +crit. They're essentially rewriting the talent. It's a nerf to certain aspects of the game that were rarely used (yes, we multiboxers are rare, and even as rare multiboxers not all of us use ToW).

I already did the math in another thread. It's a +hit nerf and a +damage increase. It balances out no matter what way you slice it.

[Stabface]

As it stands now, you have to stack multiples of some classes to get the buffs to beat the fights. This eats up a lot of slots, when you are bringing 5+ of one class instead of the average 25 slots / 10 classes = 2.5 of each class, then some other classes are getting the shaft on raid spots.

Now Blizzard is making it so you both:
* Can't stack buffs/debuffs.
* Have more sources of a buff.

So now you can bring either a Warlock w/ imp -or- a Warrior for the +health buff. And you only need one for the entire raid. Or if you have both, then the Warlock can run whatever pet he likes.
And most importantly, you spend less raid slots getting the buffs, so you can fill out the rest with what you have, not what you need.

I think it's a good change overall, I am a bit worried about it 'dumbing down' the game, but as it stands you have an awful lot of content that 95%+ of the people playing the game never get to see. If this change allows more of them to see it then it's probably a good thing.

[BobGnarly]

Not speaking specifically to shaman here, speaking to these changes (buff stacking) in general: this is a good thing for everybody.

If you follow raiding at all in the game currently, there is a really unfortunate trend with raiding guilds. Because they are generally comprised of min-maxers, they will "stack" the raid with exact numbers of certain classes (and usually of specific specs of those classes) to get the absolute most they can. This means that other people who happen to choose classes (or specs) that don't add to the bottom line as well as another get left out.

Then, because a certain raiding guild can put up X dps after stacking their raid, blizzard has to balance the bosses against that much dps (otherwise the 'stacked' guilds would just roll over everything). This means that ALL raiding guilds HAVE to do this stacking to be able to compete (since the bosses are tuned with that expectation), essentially mandating this behavior. Obvioiusly, this is not ideal as friends, or good players of "inferior" classes or specs, get left out of the game.

What they are trying to do here is homogenize the RAID BUFFS. Not all the classes, only those buffs that these classes bring. The upshot is, now I don't *need* 2-3 shadow priests in every raid, because there are 3 classes that can bring mana regen. Also, since it doesn't stack, I don't have to worry about 5 shadow priests being > some other 5 class. There will be one of each buff at a time, and more than one class can bring it. As long as you have one of those, you're gtg.

This means that blizzard can tune the fights assuming all of these buffs, but NOT assuming a certain raid composition since there will be many different ways to achieve it. Not only is that easier for them (meaning, hopefully, better quality tuning out of the gate, and less "gimmick" fights to try a present a challenge), but it also means it's simpler to balance segments of classes. As it exists now, certain classes, because they bring this OMGWTFBBQ buffs to raids, have to do less dps (for example) to balance this awesome utility. Now, since that utility is spread out (and can be assumed to always be present for raiding guilds), they can balance the classes based strictly on their hierarchy in whatever part of the game they fit (tanking, healing, dps).

Again, this is a good thing for all of us. You can argue that blizzard will screw it up if you want, and it's a possibility, I won't deny. But you have to give them credit for trying. It's a good plan, and I, for one, am happy to see them trying to address this very real issue.

[Catamer]

I think the totem or wrath only working on target within the totems range is a very HUGE HUGE nerf.

[Dominian]

I think the totem or wrath only working on target within the totems range is a very HUGE HUGE nerf.

Its a nerf for pvp indeed but now that it dont stack it wont be THAT important.. Will it have a outcome on my pvp situations in most cases? nope not for me atleast...

Its a HUGE buff to pve raiding however since the shaman can place it in the area were the mob will be since in alot of encounters its impossible to place everyone inside 30 yards wich makes the totem nearly useless.

[Naysayer]

Classes are still going to be pigeonholed into specs. Arcane, frost, or fire, one of them is going to be a better dps spec than the other two, so mages will be forced to raid as that spec. One of them will be best for pvp, so pvpers will be forced into that spec... Affliction, demo, destro, same crap. One will outshine the other. You think they'll invite an enhancement shaman if he can't out-dps a titans grip fury warrior and totems/BLust is covered by resto and maybe 1 Elemental shaman(assuming elem can keep up dpswise)?

These changes aren't being pushed to open up raid spots for different specs, they're be pushed to open up raid spots for wotlk new players and to make sure the game isn't too complicated for the beginners and casuals. Dumbing it down.

I don't see how the game's being dumbed down. Simplification of useless and boring gameplay design is not the same as dumbing down. Changing how things stack isn't dumbing down the game just because you liked how it made you more powerful.

It's not so simple that one spec is better than another, because it all depends on the fight, raid comp and situation. For mages, for example, fire is usually the best pure DPS, but has more aggro problems which could be limiting, whereas arcane has the best burst damage in the whole game when the mage pops his cooldowns, while not being that far behind on pure DPS. At least, the arcane mage can dump his mana into dmg more quickly than the fire mage if there's a final burn. It's just NOT that clear cut all the time, and more specs are viable now than ever before. There was a time when you pretty much had to spec your druid resto for raiding, had to spec a priest holy for raiding, had to spec mage frost for raiding, had to spec a paladin holy for raiding. Not because the other specs weren't there, but because there weren't even drops to support the other specs, or they were so terribly far behind. A balance druid was completely unheard of in a raid not all that long ago. A shadow priest was a hard sell pre-BC. The only real tanks were warriors. Etc etc. More specs are viable now than ever before. The only spec I really never see in raids at all is retribution paladin.

Min/maxing synergies, buffs, and debuffs was useless and boring gameplay? LOL Just remove it completely and that will make things more interesting? Yah, right.

[Naysayer]

So now you can bring either a Warlock w/ imp -or- a Warrior for the +health buff. And you only need one for the entire raid. Or if you have both, then the Warlock can run whatever pet he likes.
And most importantly, you spend less raid slots getting the buffs, so you can fill out the rest with what you have, not what you need.

I'm going to have to disagree. You're not going to have warlocks bringing what they want, you're going to have warlocks spec'ed for maximum dps with the most important pet needed for the encounter if they aren't already DSing their pet for the sac buff that is optimal for dps.

Same as today, guild leaders are not going to take a demo lock that does 80% of the damage a destro lock can do.

[Rudi89]

So now you can bring either a Warlock w/ imp -or- a Warrior for the +health buff. And you only need one for the entire raid. Or if you have both, then the Warlock can run whatever pet he likes.
And most importantly, you spend less raid slots getting the buffs, so you can fill out the rest with what you have, not what you need.

I would think that min-maxing raiders would, in the case of your example, take 1 of whichever class does more DPS and none of the other. Again, I don't see how removing stacking is going to diversify high-end raiding. I would imagine that to min-max you cover each buff/debuff slot with the highest DPS class and then fill the rest of your raid with the highest DPS class in game.

[BobGnarly]

oops - please disregard.

[mlwhitt]

To me what we are going to see is a break away of say 5 shaman teams to a mixture of classes. We are going to start seeing teams made up of maybe even 5 different classes. I think it comes down to what is more important 1) Easy of playing 5 x same class or 2) having the most buffs you can have in a boxing group. That being said I still stand behind Shaman being a great 5 box makeup even without stacking. But as for me I am seriously going to consider mixing up my groups a lot more.