I do not know yet if it will be live streamed on the CCP Twitch Channel.
The topics are
We should pay attention to this if they live stream it. Hopefully someone will ask good questions about round-robin / videofx / rollover etc.Quote:
Drop by and get an update on the work of CCP Security. Buzzwords: Botting, RMT, Input-Multiplexing & Broadcasting, Security Awareness and Account Security.
So in regards to Rollover, VFX and Rollover features CCP's Team Security Panel directly said "Read the EULA".
Hopefully someone goes to the Round-table and get answers.
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For those who missed it
Attachment 1420
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The [...] is the problem, IMO. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by New Horizon
Do we have a solid definition of "client modification" yet?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranny817
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So I'm not allowed to play in windowed mode now? What is the state I mean CCP authorized resolution for gameplay so I don't fall a foul of the original format?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranny817
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1. Dashboards don't require modifying the client at all.
2. In fact the popular dashboard setups put the overlays on DxNothing, not on top of the game window. (The setup in the fanfest image did appear to place them over the game window.)
3. And besides, Video FX are OS layered windows placed over the game client via desktop composition. That's why FRAPS and other video recording software need special handling to record them.
Also I would like to point out for everyone that CCP Random was (intentionally?) misleading on the Round-robin question. He is implying that the delay between inputs to different clients in question is somehow generated, to which we can already make assumptions about the answer. The question isn't "can I generate inputs to different clients at different times", the question is "can I press the same key at different times to go to different clients", and this is a major difference. As in, "I press F2 and it happens in window 1. then I press F2 again, and it happens in window 2". However, it sounds like his answer is that it doesn't matter. They may interpret this as "replayable input sequences" even though you are "replaying" it manually one key at a time by pressing F2 again. Hard to say for sure.
With respect to a DxNothing dashboard, I'm not entirely sure how to interpret CCP Random's statements. Certainly there is no client modification in that case, even with the definition of client modification somehow including other OS windows over the game client. He did seem to put some emphasis on "change how the Game is played", but then on the next slide talks about touch-screens with finger gestures which clearly "changes how the Game is played" no less than having a window on your second monitor that has a view of your modules from window 1 for you to click on, so that can mean literally anything or nothing depending on the person interpreting it...
From what he was saying though I still see no reason why you should not be able to use a DxNothing dashboard with mouse+keyboard pass-through (single instance control) on the Video FX, within the current rule set.
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Maybe we're watching different EVE Fanfest streams with different slides on them, because although that's how you might feel, he didn't say that. He did reiterate, again, that it is still explicitly allowed to use input multiplexing for specific actions in the client -- login, client settings, client window alignment. There's a slide at 4:24:18 with this. Why would he show this if he said what you say he said?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranny817
Nor would he need to discuss the third-party gesture software behind touchscreen tablets moments later.
Let's try to keep the conversation constructive, I think we've all heard enough hyperbole
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Excellent. Thanks for the link!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranny817
Attachment 1422
"...the better we get at identifying patterns the more we can do to keep this to a limit." So they really do want to limit the number of accounts per person.
That and the security guys repeating that they really, really like seeing this graph I take to mean multiboxing en toto was a primary target, regardless of claims that "multiboxing" is OK. Not a malicious target but it was still a primary motivation.
I think a very interesting bit of this was that the price of PLEX (or put another way, price per billion ISK; covered several minutes later) did not materially change due to the multiplexing policy change. Since that doesn't correlate to the drop in accounts per player, that suggests this was a gameplay factor rather than an economy factor, which disagrees with some of the things mentioned by silly CSMs, pretty much confirming that those people have no more data than we players do.
Yea, I decided to go ahead and condense my accounts officially.
After watching that, I have come to the conclusion that CCP does not actually like multiboxers which goes a little against their game design.
Regardless, instead of trying to fight an uphill battle, I'd rather just bow out from multiboxing Eve completely.
You people are ridiculous.
http://i.imgur.com/njCAa6U.jpg
And right after that:
"You are not allowed to change how the game is played."
They explicitly state "don't fucking use any macros." (I may have added the profanity.)
I don't get what else you need. They explicitly state "clients are in foreground, or background."
That kills round robin dead for EXACTLY the reasons I spelled out earlier.
Then they say the following (quoted EXACTLY), in reference to "Roll-Over" AND "Round-Robin" literally EXACTLY by name in http://www.twitch.tv/ccp/b/639617004 @4:26:00:
That is EXACTLY what they said. EXPLICITLY telling you Roll-over or Round-Robin are NOT allowed. You have your answer, stop whining about trying to get around the rules, and play the game by their rules.Quote:
"Can these overlays be one pixel wide, so that they don't really effect the client, or that they are very small, or unimportant, and interestingly enough the answer to that is already in our EULA. It's pretty general tho the answer, it's like that [cue slide] You are NOT allowed to change how the game is played. So, you may not use your own, third party software to modify any content appearing within the game environment, and regardless of how you look at it, even if the interface is zero pixels, it's STILL NOT ALLOWED because it changes how the game is played, and that is an important aspect on how we look at this, because we didn't need to change our EULAs or anything; it has always been there."
Super explicit translation of the above rules and others relevant for the Feeble-Minded:
1. You may only send a SINGLE action to a SINGLE game client at one time.
a. That client must have focus - it is either in the foreground or the background. Not both, and you MUST explicitly focus this client through some action.
2. You may only send actions to clients in compliance with the above if it is in a manner consistent with the vanilla game.
a. This means, for example, to activate a module YOU must CLICK the module manually, or YOU (not a triggered event) must press the button on the keyboard that corresponds to the INGAME shortcut (ie f1 activates highslot 1), or in the case of titan bridges etc etc, right click and activate through other INGAME methods.
b. If you are not explicitly doing one of the above, you are IN VIOLATION.
3. The only exception to any of these rules would be if the client itself is performing some action, as in the case of the autopilot warping, approaching, and jumping or docking across multiple systems with one button press and/or toggle.
a. If you are modifying the game client in any way not authorized by CCP (ie downloading sanctioned patches to update the software version) you are IN VIOLATION.
b. Being in violation of subsection (a) of this rule will result in a zero-warning permanent ban of all accounts accessed and/or "owned" by the user.
Also, as a side note, in case anyone missed it (several have posted here about this) - if you are caught breaking the EULA on ANY of your accounts, punitive action will be taken against ALL of your accounts. It doesn't matter if you were only multiplexing on 3 alts - all 10 of your accounts will be banned for just those 3.
If you can't play by the rules, then don't play anymore. This is the Eve section of the forums, and there are plenty of other forum sections where you can go to multibox. I don't go to the WoW section and post about how I once played WoW and found it incredibly awful because of design decisions by the dev team over there (laughably awful pvp, a set amount of exhaustible content, and prior to these gold token things I'm hearing about, no way to multibox without shelling out tons of cash). None of us who actually play the game want to hear about you ranting and raving about how you're gonna sue CCP, or how much you hate the game. We're all people here who just want to have fun playing the games we enjoy in the manner we enjoy.
Just like Lax and myself have pointed out over and over, play the game without messing with the inputs. A dashboard setup is a-ok.
TLDR version tyQuote:
Originally Posted by LordsServant
(Long post incoming, bringing over some stuff from the EVE Forums for Lax and other experts benefit).
Response to Lucas during the Round-Table
[QUOTE]ShadowandLight wrote:
did they offer any clarification on what constitutes an "advantage"? How fast or slow must I use my multiple clients to not be considered "cheating"?
That is really my main question, it seems to come down to some vague definition of an unfair advantage. So we need specifics, how fast am i allowed to click buttons on other clients before I am considered breaking some nondescript rule?
https://forums.eveonline.com/default...60#post5599860Quote:
Lucas Kell wrote:There was a vague reference to 20% above the average but I believe that was just spitballing rather than a real figure.
Multiboxing "too well" = Botting = account banning / assets seized
https://forums.eveonline.com/default...92#post5599692Quote:
Lucas Kell wrote: ... they confirmed that the punishment for multiplexing falls under botting, not EULA violation (lose accounts and assets), that round robin and video fx are against the rules if used for an advantage (though how much of an advantage is an advantage is questionable) that they have no client side detection (and instead rely on data analysis over period of months) and that players can be under investigation for months before action is taken.
All in all I'm not at all satisfied that they don't hit too many false positives, banning manual multiboxers. What worse is that in the presentation they stated that they use banned players and confirmed false positives to build profiles to aid in detection, so when someone is falsely banned and they refuse to believe that the player was in fact not using tools, they are using data from incorrectly banned players to help build violation profiles.
VFX = Modified Client?
CCP seems to be saying that a "modified" eve client is using VFX overlays INSIDE an EVE Window. (I am having to take some liberties here, because they arent being specific).
Attachment 1423
So, if that is correct, you cannot in their mind make dxnothing dashboards INSIDE a game client but you MIGHT be allowed to make a dxnothing window dashboard, since its OUTSIDE the game client.
Attachment 1424
This was presented as "Client Modification" which if this was sitting on a dxnothing window SEEMS to be against what they declare as allowed. If they are stating that THIS is client modification, then everything VFX does falls into that category.
Rollover / Round-Robin Response
"Please see the EULA"
Attachment 1425
CCP Random said refer to the EULA, which states you cannot modify any content appearing within the game.
He SEEMS to imply that if you use VFX or Rollovers you are modify content IN the game. Now, does this mean I can use VFX OR rollovers if they are OUTSIDE the game inside a dxnothing window? You cant say one is allowed and the other isnt, because they both per CCP Random SEEM to fall inside this vague definition of what "modifies the content appearing within the Game Environment" . If Rollover's OUTSIDE of the client inside a dxnothing window = "modfying" then certainly every single VFX box you make does too.
Lets say CCP then states you CANNOT use rollover EVEN INSIDE a dxnothing window. Ok. Can I use Rollover and VFX outside the client inside a dxnothing window? Lax and Lordservant seem to say yes, NosyGamer (who they brought on to talk about RMTing and is pretty anti ISBoxer usage) also seems to say yes, but going by this slide CCP Random seems to say no.
Key Re-Mapping?
Are we allowed to make key remaps? Can I remap F1 on Client #2 to F2 instead? If I get a Xkey 80 and assign each button, I could easily use bombers almost as effeicently as using Rollover or Input Duplication... Is this allowed? Its certainty not a macro, just a key remap? How would CCP know the difference though? I can hit 16 + buttons in a second using my fingers, what if i just took my fist and smashed all the keys? Would I just be banned "just because"?
http://i.imgur.com/sY0ZhhR.png
CCP - I KNOW you read these forums.
THERE IS A SIMPLE ANSWER TO ALL OF THIS.
If you dont want to name features directly then draw a line
" you cannot send more then x commands to your clients in x seconds."
Simple, easy to follow, no confusion. Something like that would be completely feature agnostic.
This current vagueness is complete garbage.
Well when you run in windowed mode you're using a third part program (windows mac whatever) to modify how the game appears in client. There's also a variety of tweaks you can to do to windows that changes the way the game is played. Hell once could say running in windowed mode changes how the game is played when compared to fullscreen. Windows based games can all be changed to windowed mode even the ones that don't have it as an option. ALT+enter will window mode about anything. So I guess one could argue that since there's an option it's allowed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranny817
What I'm saying is their logic or at least the wording really sucks.
That's what I'm talking about. Operating systems are third party programs. Video card drivers are third party programs. The mouse driver is a third party program. All of which can effect how the game is displayed and how it is played. All of those are technically somehow banned now. Oh I wonder if you change windows so you don't have to hit alt+tab to change windows if that would be bannable too?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranny817
If nothing else that makes catalyst control panel and the nvidia geforce experience both bannable. Why? Well in those programs you can change how the card renders graphics and as such change how in game content appears.
So far all i have heard is "videofx MAY be legal"
Didn't anyone specifically ask?
I think it was declared "Client Modification" because in the presented screenshot they showed the VFX on top of the game window and implied that they are now a part of the game window, and therefore "the client looks different" thus "modified". Without knowing that VFX are Windows DWM Thumbnails like when you hold Alt+Tab or roll over Taskbar buttons since Vista, that's totally understandable. Either way, they didn't rule out or mention DxNothng or non-EVE windows in any way.Quote:
VFX = Modified Client?
CCP seems to be saying that a "modified" eve client is using VFX overlays INSIDE an EVE Window. (I am having to take some liberties here, because they arent being specific).
Attachment 1423
So, if that is correct, you cannot in their mind make dxnothing dashboards INSIDE a game client but you MIGHT be allowed to make a dxnothing window dashboard, since its OUTSIDE the game client.
Attachment 1424
This was presented as "Client Modification" which if this was sitting on a dxnothing window SEEMS to be against what they declare as allowed. If they are stating that THIS is client modification, then everything VFX does falls into that category.
But I think it can be said that they are either willfully ignoring the way Windows actually works, or know damn well and are purposefully trying to hide the way Windows actually works from the people they are presenting to, to make us look "worse" than it is. Either way is hostile.
I don't think it's the rollover itself that's "modification", it's the VFX over the main window. The rollover is more related to the macro/prerecorded sequence. Especially when it's tied to the other part about "what if they are very small and insignificant 1x1" where you really want to slide your mouse across. At that point it's just really a dubious technicality to get around what he called "a prerecorded sequence", and that's why I'm not going to suggest using your rollover idea....Quote:
He SEEMS to imply that if you use VFX or Rollovers you are modify content IN the game. Now, does this mean I can use VFX OR rollovers if they are OUTSIDE the game inside a dxnothing window? You cant say one is allowed and the other isnt, because they both per CCP Random SEEM to fall inside this vague definition of what "modifies the content appearing within the Game Environment" . If Rollover's OUTSIDE of the client inside a dxnothing window = "modfying" then certainly every single VFX box you make does too.
Nosy apparently thought they were going to keep to their word about the original input multiplexing announcement too. He doesn't know any more, or have any more authority, than we do.Quote:
Lets say CCP then states you CANNOT use rollover EVEN INSIDE a dxnothing window. Ok. Can I use Rollover and VFX outside the client inside a dxnothing window? Lax and Lordservant seem to say yes, NosyGamer (who they brought on to talk about RMTing and is pretty anti ISBoxer usage) also seems to say yes, but going by this slide CCP Random seems to say no.
Ignoring for a moment that you're suggesting an Xkey 80, key re-maps are possible to do in Windows. Here's a program that configures key re-maps in Windows only by editing the Registry: https://sharpkeys.codeplex.com/. I don't know what registry key it is off the top of my head, but there you go.Quote:
Key Re-Mapping?
Are we allowed to make key remaps? Can I remap F1 on Client #2 to F2 instead? If I get a Xkey 80 and assign each button, I could easily use bombers almost as effeicently as using Rollover or Input Duplication... Is this allowed? Its certainty not a macro, just a key remap? How would CCP know the difference though? I can hit 16 + buttons in a second using my fingers, what if i just took my fist and smashed all the keys? Would I just be banned "just because"?
I see no issue with key re-maps and the current ruleset. This is not the same as a macro/prerecorded sequence at all.
But yes you could be banned "just because" either way, and I think that's the problem most people are having here.
What's to ask?Quote:
Originally Posted by thedevilyouknow
They showed Video FX on top of the EVE window in a slide said they interpret this as "client modification". So if you don't put the Video FX on top of the EVE window, where is the so-called "client modification"?
They would have to come up with a different reason to call it prohibited.
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Sorry, what question did you ask? You can't just say this and assume everyone is going to take your word. There have been numerous times when people post things like this, saying they asked about something and got some sort of response, but then when asked for the actual text, the person asked the question in a way that completely changed the context.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranny817
From the real video which we all can really see, CCP Random called it "client modification" to have your "dashboard" appearing over the EVE client window. Putting it over a different window that is not an EVE client must therefore not be "client modification".
to be honnest, if dashboard in an eve client is not allowed, why would you allow it "not in an eve window"
you can put all your eve windows on a DX window so your main eve client is also an VFX.....
> so again moving around their ruling of not letting you use vfx on your eve client...
I love isboxer but i've done the math 4months ago.. ccp wants isboxing gone, and only allows you to alt tab or buy bigger screens....
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The question forced them to make assumptions about what you mean by a dashboard setup. If they assume it is as pictured in the twitch stream, it's over the EVE client window, and again as CCP Random said this was apparently "client modification".Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranny817
They also specified third-party software that changes how the Game is played -- touch-screen gesture software (by the way, shadowandlight, this is the same as key re-mapping) -- that they apparently allow. So they're either lying about being software/hardware agnostic or the same concept must be allowable.
So I don't really see your question and answer, as given, being the gold standard answer to the question of whether you can put VFX on a non-EVE window, and click on them.
Of course the blanket answer is going to be they will never sanction a 3rd party tool.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranny817
The question is if your allowed to have a separate window using VFX, which they wont answer either, but if that is now not allowed. Since your not modifying the game client or anything INSIDE the game client, it certainty doesnt fall into client modification.
That doesnt mean they will tell you that its ok, cause they appear to be on the warpath.
Example - http://i.imgur.com/IyEWati.jpg
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It's been said many times by me and others, it doesn't matter what method you're using to multibox EVE since the rule change, you're a suspect and in the end they don't really care. You should just not multibox EVE. They are all but saying that in the first place, what with their fancy graphs and all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranny817
I'm going to continue to say that the question still remains as to whether they will say it is okay to put VFX on a non-EVE client window, and click on it. That is not resolved by your ambiguous question.
And besides, they still say whatever the hell you want to use to log you in is allowed, you cannot say "if you are using a 3rd party tool it is against the rules" because your statement is directly falsified by CCP Random.
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Banning VidFX? that like banning windowed mode. How exactly would CCP even be able to determine you're running a dashboard setup in the first place since no actual client modification is being performed?
I could stack my windowed eve clients and get the same results, is ccp going to ban me now for how i arrange my windows on my desktop?
CCP has become grade-a fuckwads recently.
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Then why do you keep saying it and using it to back up your argument?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dranny817
They are DWM thumbnails. This is a feature built into Windows, and is the same as when you hold Alt+Tab and cycle through Windows and see a live view of the game window, or when you put your mouse over the taskbar buttons and the view pops up above the taskbar.Quote:
How do you get these VFX that you put on a non EvE client window.?
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Quote:
If you are using a 3rd part tool to play eve which you are if you are using Isboxer to make dashboard dxnothing etc etc than it is against he rules how much more clear do they have to make it for you to understand this ?
I'm only quoting you. You should stop debating with me.Quote:
you're the one who keep brining it back up again as you seem to have misunderstood what I have said.
Desktop Window Manager is part of Windows. It is "shipped" with Windows beginning with Windows Vista. It is "always enabled" in Windows 8 and later. When you Alt+Tab, DWM shows these thumbnails. No they are not "shipped" with EVE, nor are they part of EVE. It is a function of Windows. If you cannot have DWM thumbnails, then you are not allowed to use Alt+Tab. It is that simple.Quote:
So these DWM thumbnails are these "shipped" with EvE ? if not then it is not allowed it is that simple.
I'm done responding to any Dranny817 posts.
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