To celebrate /follow returning to WoW PVP Arenas, let's have a contest!

I am interested in sponsoring a multiboxing contest for WoW's 5v5 (and 3v3?) PVP arenas, and I want your input!

Goals might involve...

• first team to reach X rating
• first to get some Achievement
• highest rated teams at the end of the season
• best video and/or stream
• weekly pvp participation goal
• etc... do you have a better idea? we can have more than one goal, with different prizes.

Prizes might include...

• cash. probably hundreds of dollars.
• WoW GTC, like say, a free year of WoW for a team of 5
• PC hardware or accessories
• ... what other kind of prize do you think would be interesting?

I want your ideas on goals and prizes!

This is not an ISBoxer contest so I don't want to offer ISBoxer things, but I'm also not opposed to offering subscription time or ISBoxer swag either...


... would you enter the contest?

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Originally Posted by Lax

I am interested in sponsoring a multiboxing contest for WoW's 5v5 PVP arenas, and I want your input!

Goals might involve...

• first team to reach X rating
• first to get some Achievement
• highest rated teams at the end of the season
• best video and/or stream
• etc... do you have a better idea? we can have more than one goal, with different prizes.

Prizes might include...

• cash. probably hundreds of dollars.
• WoW GTC, like say, a free year of WoW for a team of 5
• PC hardware or accessories
• ... what other kind of prize do you think would be interesting?

I want your ideas on goals and prizes!

This is not an ISBoxer contest so I don't want to offer ISBoxer things, but I'm also not opposed to offering subscription time or ISBoxer swag either...


... would you enter the contest?

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I'd be interested but i'd want some clarification first.

How many toons are we required to play? Because personally I planned on playing 3 but if it is required that we play more I'll try to think of a new composition.

I think that as far as prizes go the largest should go to the most successful at the highest rated player at the end of the season and base it on the ladder rankings (what they end at, not their highest achieved) to simulate a ladder like structure. After that I think that a first to reach X rating would be interesting as well. I think that stream/video is out of place though personally as that is judgmental on their video editing skills and not their PVP prowess.

Achievements have been able to be earned over time so I'm not sure they are a good thing to judge by.

Maybe a small prize for the highest rated for each class?

I like the idea a lot and think it might be a good way to get more people active in the pvp aspect of the game.

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How many toons are we required to play? Because personally I planned on playing 3 but if it is required that we play more

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I was originally thinking 5v5 but after giving that some thought, a team size of 5 alone makes participation impractical for a lot of people. I am definitely open to suggestions!

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I think that stream/video is out of place though personally as that is judgmental on their video editing skills and not their PVP prowess.

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I want to promote participation in multiboxing the PVP arenas, where clearly we are invited to do so, and videos and streams can be pretty good at doing that. I think this is a good alternative way for people to participate without necessarily thinking they can be the best PVPer, because most of us wouldn't bother trying. I want it to be more interesting... and I am open to ideas like this that promote participation without necessarily being "the best" or one of the few top people. The top PVP teams will get different rewards than people who participate in other ways.

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Originally Posted by Lax

I was originally thinking 5v5 but after giving that some thought, a team size of 5 alone makes participation impractical for a lot of people. I am definitely open to suggestions!


I want to promote participation in multiboxing the PVP arenas, where clearly we are invited to do so, and videos and streams can be pretty good at doing that. I think this is a good alternative way for people to participate without necessarily thinking they can be the best PVPer, because most of us wouldn't bother trying. I want it to be more interesting... and I am open to ideas like this that promote participation without necessarily being "the best" or one of the few top people. The top PVP teams will get different rewards than people who participate in other ways.

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Well I agree keeping it to 5's is likely the best option. It is what most people do. In all honesty 3's is going to be absurdly hard for a majority of the people's class choices to succeed in and i'd stick to a medium by which people can compete a bit easier. Don't get me wrong 3's is awesome and I enjoyed it more than 5's. That being said there are people who box less than 5... so i think limit the competition to 5's but only require 3 toons played by one person?

Obviously I'm open to 3's being an option as well as it is where I had a majority of my own success I just think that the inefficiencies people will run into from what they currently play to what they NEED to play for viability/participation and needing to re-roll etc will deter people from trying to really push.

I think that its a good idea to promote people not being the "best" so the video thing could be good. I think that maybe you should do a top for US, top for EU, and top overall maybe? Or a straight top 10 at the end of the season sort of deal?

Maybe make leagues or something with 5-10 people who compete against eachother's ratings only? So that way you're not competing against everyone just have to be better than those in the pool of people? It may also help people strive to actually work harder because it is one thing to compete against a whole ladder and see top contenders above 2k and you're around 1600 and give up where as you may have those top level people in your "pool/league" but could have a bunch of people around where you are at as well. Possibly do small prizes at the end of each month for overall ladder participation and give out pool/league prizes at the same time and make them mutually exclusive so that if you get a prize for say "top 3" of the month you are ineligible for prize from pool/league play.so that it encourages participation in pools even with people on the higher end of the rating spectrum.

Just some ideas.

For 3s, I think the multiboxer should be required to play all the toons.
For 5s, you could have two brackets, one where a multiboxer must control 4 toons and one where they must control all 5. I plan on playing both buckets, and would be fine if it was one bucket for either 4 or 5 toons controlled, but I don't think you want to limit it to teams who control all 5 toons.

I'd be careful with RBGs as there are active boxers who clearly win trade. I suppose that could be the same for arena, which is why I support video/stream verification. Certainly not all the matches, but if someone is 2k then I'd like to at least seem them beat a couple 1700 teams on a stream or in a video. I believe streaming/videos build the community more than any other method, including this forum, and encouraging the behavior makes everything more interesting!

I disagree with prizes for individual classes, solo toons, or group compositions.

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Originally Posted by Owltoid

For 3s, I think the multiboxer should be required to play all the toons.
For 5s, you could have two brackets, one where a multiboxer must control 4 toons and one where they must control all 5. I plan on playing both buckets, and would be fine if it was one bucket for either 4 or 5 toons controlled, but I don't think you want to limit it to teams who control all 5 toons.

I'd be careful with RBGs as there are active boxers who clearly win trade. I suppose that could be the same for arena, which is why I support video/stream verification. Certainly not all the matches, but if someone is 2k then I'd like to at least seem them beat a couple 1700 teams on a stream or in a video. I believe streaming/videos build the community more than any other method, including this forum, and encouraging the behavior makes everything more interesting!

I disagree with prizes for individual classes, solo toons, or group compositions.

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I disagree with requirement of all 3 toons being played at once in 3's, this is dual-boxing.com afterall. I played 2 and that was difficult enough to get positioning down on.

I think 5's should be any amount you want 3+ (where you make up more than 50% of the team), because thats the medium between dual-boxing and multiboxing and doesn't limit them to only playing 3s.
Multiple brackets is fine for 5 and less than 5 though personally i don't think it matters.

Requiring video proof isn't possible for everyone, not everyone's system can support streaming even with OBS or running fraps.

I agree that RBGs is a no-no.

You interested in world pvp footage at all, streamed? You mentioned "best stream"....

I think this is great for an idea to bring the boxers back to the game. Any chance we could also line up a time where several of us in the US could have the potential of going up against each other? Please note this is not in anyway a chance to win trade but a chance for some boxers to actually go against another so as to avoid "griefing" non-boxers. I know back in Season 11 I kepted bumping into a fellow five boxer elemental shaman and it was like which of us will hit the suicide zone first enabling the other to start unloading on them, but the fun part was getting a win or two against a mirror comp and knowing you came out on top due to having a better setup, macro and broadcasting strategy for openings.

I have 5 shaman at 89 but not geared in anyway that is near competitive but I would be game to give it a try.

I also think some screen snaps at the end of each match would be nice for the score board to show if there is improvement in MMR, effectiveness (damage done, heals, if a toon normally gets all the kills on a team, etc...). I know I don't stream/youtube as I am a scrub. But am up for doing some voice chat to figure it out at some point.

It would be very cool to see teams and the records of them advance over time.

It'd have to be a pretty hefty reward for going through the pain of 5v5 in this expansion.

Aoe fear stun disorient deep freeze frost bomb blanket silence blanket silence blanket silence stun stun overwrite stun overwrite cc overwrite fear overwrite silence cold snap frost bomb cold snap freeze cold snap deep freeze recklessness avatar bladestorm stampede. Dark bargain divine shield ice block symbiosis ice block dispersion symbiosis dispersion dark generation second wind cauterize life cocoon tarch of karma, solar beam. RING OF PEACE.

And that's 1300 MMR teams.

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Originally Posted by heyaz

It'd have to be a pretty hefty reward for going through the pain of 5v5 in this expansion.

Aoe fear stun disorient deep freeze frost bomb blanket silence blanket silence blanket silence stun stun overwrite stun overwrite cc overwrite fear overwrite silence cold snap frost bomb cold snap freeze cold snap deep freeze recklessness avatar bladestorm stampede. Dark bargain divine shield ice block symbiosis ice block dispersion symbiosis dispersion dark generation second wind cauterize life cocoon tarch of karma, solar beam. RING OF PEACE.

And that's 1300 MMR teams.

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I LOL'd. ;)

Looks like I'm the only one interested

Woot free money! ;)

I would be interested in 3v3.

I would have to see the qualifiers,rules and regulations first though.

Havent played since decemeber but hell yeah count me in

i feel this should be 5v5, test our classes and abilities to aim high as the biggest question seems to be.....group compositions.....class mixes whats the best 5v5.

Let's do this, i don't think anyone is attempting this because of the effort but if we have something to aim for then this is a step in the right direction....lets put theory...to practically test with hopefully a winning, rewarding result.

Everyone will be watching this....im up for the challenge and im carefully selecting a team for arena.

alex /AKA boxblizzard/ team funk from Gimp/ grim-batol/the maelstrom

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Originally Posted by Fat Tire

I would have to see the qualifiers,rules and regulations first though.

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That's why I'm asking for input ;) I'm no expert at this.

I want to make sure that anyone interested is encouraged to join in the fun and has a chance at some rewards.

Teams will have to register for the contest, either by adding the team and verifying in The Commons (noting that it will need some updates), or something like it specifically for the contest. There will not be an entrance fee, but there might be some requirements like provide a photo of your multiboxing battlestation (impress everyone by demolishing your enemies with your piece of crap) and/or write a few sentences about the way you play... The site will check records on a regular basis and the progress of teams will be tracked and displayed publicly. We'll disqualify teams for win trading and other unscrupulous behavior; so for example if you look at team records and think someone is cheating, you'll be able to appeal to get them disqualified from the contest.

I think that we'll probably have two brackets, 3v3 and 5v5.

If someone only wants to play 3, then they should probably be in the 3's bracket. Having half of a 5v5 team being non-multiboxers defeats the purpose of the multiboxing pvp contest, and besides it drastically changes the balance to have actually 3+ real people instead of 1 real person driving the team. This was obvious enough to me when I did 5v5 and I would run into teams of 4 whatevers (usually shamans) plus a healer. While I would have to personally try to keep my team healed as I move around and DPS, and try to keep the healer out of harm's way myself, the 4+1 team had a much easier time healing their DPS and/or having the healer run away while they unloaded on me. And that's just 1 extra real person. So to me there is a huge difference between playing 3 in a 5v5 and rating well, and playing 5 in a 5v5 and rating well. I don't think it would be incredibly fair to compare those teams directly in our contest.



And another thing. The people who would be competing for the top spots might be less willing to do some of these "sharing" things, as they want to prevent others from achieving the same feats, but that's sort of the opposite of what this contest is about. A contest like this can help multiboxers show some professionalism instead of the flame wars that dominate the game forums. This is why I think it's important to reward people for sharing screenshots, videos, streams, and even posting strategy guides or discussions.


So, what if we do something like this...

Prize Pool #1 - Season winners

Actual cash prize value should scale based on the number of active participants in the bracket; for example if only 10 active teams exist in each of them, the structure below does not really make any sense at all. However, if it's actually attractive to enough people, the numbers can also go up... I'm suggesting tiered rewards for the top 10 teams to encourage participation and competition.

So here's some numbers that I think would be attractive but otherwise I'm pulling out of my ass and are not necessarily the final numbers...

5v5 - play all 5

• #1 Team wins $500
• #2 and #3 win $250
• #4 and #5 win $125
• #6 through #10 win $50

3v3 - play all 3

• #1 Team wins $300
• #2 and #3 win $150
• #4 and #5 win $75
• #6 through #10 win $30

I am curious whether more people would sign up for the 3v3 or the 5v5, and which might end up more competitive. When/if we do it again the next season we can of course make adjustments based on our experiences with the first season.

Prize Pool #2 - Evangelism

That is, videos, streams, forum posts, strategy guides and discussion, etc -- pretty much anything that will show more people the contest and something cool about multiboxing.

We want to have a way to comparatively rate and reward the best evangelists, maybe every month. It's easy to say something like "most viewed video(s)" or "most favorited stream" or community ratings or something but some people might already start with an inherent advantage (e.g. someone who is already otherwise popular), and because the ease and incentive to cheat those kinds of systems.. Maybe the Dual-Boxing.com staff should vote on winners for this pool...

I'm not really sure how large the prizes should be for this, but I imagine something like $100 for one and $50 for another two people each month, with winners selected by the DB staff. At least 2 of the 3 each time should be someone who hasn't won before.

Prize Pool #3 - Participation

Meet minimum weekly wins for entry in weekly participation drawing(s) for a 30-day GTC or something.



Now are we interested? Thoughts?

It's interesting but reading through does make it feel like a job!

through maybe some of this can be compressed down into lets say, a review from the owner in a video format

I like it. 5v5 with controlling all 5 will be tough, but it is pure multiboxing. My team is currently hovering around 1200, with some room for improvement


One thing that would help is to have a better system for knowing who is streaming other than the sticky thread (maybe one exists and I'm not aware of it). I really don't have any concrete suggestions, but it would be cool to have active streams being redirected to the d-b.com somehow.

In the 5s bracket, 4-boxing with another player playing the 5th is very common for the higher performing teams.
Playing all five, is very different... and that will remove a lot of the more competitive teams.

The majority of the videos of 5s teams that were competitive in their season, has been 4-boxing with someone else playing the healer.

I'm not saying don't go with 'you must play all five in a 5s match' or 'all three in a 3s match'.
Just that that will greatly reduce the quality of the teams.

Then again, everyone can play their entire team.
Not everyone can get a fifth/third person who is very skilled in arena play...

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Originally Posted by Ualaa

In the 5s bracket, 4-boxing with another player playing the 5th is very common for the higher performing teams.
Playing all five, is very different... and that will remove a lot of the more competitive teams.

The majority of the videos of 5s teams that were competitive in their season, has been 4-boxing with someone else playing the healer.

I'm not saying don't go with 'you must play all five in a 5s match' or 'all three in a 3s match'.
Just that that will greatly reduce the quality of the teams.

Then again, everyone can play their entire team.
Not everyone can get a fifth/third person who is very skilled in arena play...

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I really hope you change your mind Lax. Like Ualaa says a majority of the people who do this for the competitive nature do so to be competitive on the ladder and not just to participate against other boxers.

It doesn't help that a ton of people have canceled their subs and that a majority of people who might re-level for this sort of thing will be extremely far behind gear wise... but thats the nature of MMOs.

I want to say that although you are trying to invigorate competitiveness and a reason for people to PVP... so few people PVP'd to begin with since cata that I doubt a menial amount of money (not @ the higher amounts) will persuade them to push themselves. The community as a whole (including Tim's site) are just not active enough in this sort of means to have a prize pool and structure like that. Honestly you might be better off making the prize for top 3 and not limiting the required characters controlled to 5 but just more than 50% of the team in order to prove what multiboxing in arenas is capable of (confining yourself to all 3/5 really hurts your chances on the ladder and more so encourages grinding which a majority of the community does not have time for anyway). That being said if you do so it might be best to do one bracket with a combined prize pool to help motivate people more and garner higher participation. Not only that but a larger prize pool with a single goal will attract new boxers as well as possibly bring old ones back.

I won't be participating if I have to choose between ladder play and playing for money. So best of luck to everyone who decides to do so.

I don't think any boxers are truly competitive in the 5v5 ladder, Shodokan. Are others worried that if they play 5v5 then that team can't also be in a competitive 5v5 that uses other players? Otherwise why not give it a shot playing all 5?

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Originally Posted by Owltoid

I don't think any boxers are truly competitive in the 5v5 ladder, Shodokan. Are others worried that if they play 5v5 then that team can't also be in a competitive 5v5 that uses other players? Otherwise why not give it a shot playing all 5?

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The characters i would play would be played with friends in 5's so i'd have to have two teams... one for this and one to play with friends.

I know that not everyone is competitive... but the whole point of this contest is to try and make people competitive, not just to hand out money for people to go about their business as normal IMO. Essentially it makes it a tournament of sorts which is why I kinda feel this way.

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the whole point of this contest is to try and make people competitive, not just to hand out money for people to go about their business as normal IMO

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I think you're a bit confused here. Trying to get the highest rating on the ladder by facerolling everyone with the easiest (read: "competitive") method possible (which is clearly to multibox less than a full team) is business as normal, and you're quite literally telling me to just hand out money for the top people to go about that business as normal. Someone is already going to go play 3 out of 5 on a 5's team and try to get the best rating they can.

The whole point of the contest isn't to try to make people competitive, it's to show off multiboxing and what multiboxers can do besides stand there and spam DPS and argue on the forums about bots and /follow and whether or not they should have to play their whole team, and whether they're going to quit the game... business as normal. We're not going to convince anyone of your multiboxing prowess by you playing 3 of 5 guys on a 5's team.

I wouldn't make a PVE multiboxing contest where you need someone else on your team, why do you need someone else on your team in a PVP multiboxing contest? This makes no sense for a multiboxing contest and prizes for multiboxing. I am sorry to have offended you though.

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The characters i would play would be played with friends in 5's so i'd have to have two teams... one for this and one to play with friends.

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Business as usual ;)

Your contest, your rules.

Quad boxing yes or no?

If no, are 5 enhancement shamans allowed?

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Originally Posted by Lax

• etc... do you have a better idea? we can have more than one goal, with different prizes.

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To honor the elemental spec - which served us a long time - highest elemental shaman team at the end of the season + movie;)

Why wouldn't 5 enhancement be allowed? Why have a specific comp requirement? Just show off what can be done when playing all toons on a team - whether that's 5 protection warriors or 5 elemental shamans or an entirely mixed team - whether that's at 2200 rating or 1000. Just show the world what we can do! It's a simple and fun concept that doesn't need complication.

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Originally Posted by Lax

I think you're a bit confused here. Trying to get the highest rating on the ladder by facerolling everyone with the easiest (read: "competitive") method possible (which is clearly to multibox less than a full team) is business as normal, and you're quite literally telling me to just hand out money for the top people to go about that business as normal. Someone is already going to go play 3 out of 5 on a 5's team and try to get the best rating they can.

The whole point of the contest isn't to try to make people competitive, it's to show off multiboxing and what multiboxers can do besides stand there and spam DPS and argue on the forums about bots and /follow and whether or not they should have to play their whole team, and whether they're going to quit the game... business as normal. We're not going to convince anyone of your multiboxing prowess by you playing 3 of 5 guys on a 5's team.

I wouldn't make a PVE multiboxing contest where you need someone else on your team, why do you need someone else on your team in a PVP multiboxing contest? This makes no sense for a multiboxing contest and prizes for multiboxing. I am sorry to have offended you though.



Business as usual ;)

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No one is convincing anyone of anything if their ratings don't reflect what others outside out immediate community consider skilled. It is a 5 boxing contest, not a multiboxing contest.

Blatant opinion is that the community isn't strong enough member amount wise or PVP interest wise to make a top 10 prize structure. Yes it is important to get as many people active in it as possible but "business as usual" playing 3-4 toons is what has made every single boxer above 2k successful. Not to mention I don't even have 5 accounts >_>

My point is you are throwing money at people and what you may feel is "multiboxing prowess" is something that very few people have shown 4 boxing with "business as usual" and the money isn't going to change the fact that you can only do so well controlling all 5 toons.

I guess personally its just shocking to see someone tell me to participate I have to not do as well as I can, your rules your contest. I'll be sticking to single toons in 3's for now I guess. It's just disappointing to me, but one person doesn't matter in the grand scheme.

Like I said, good luck to everyone else who is going to participate and I hope that someone does decently on the ladder to prove something to the outside world and not just our tiny and ever shrinking community.

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Originally Posted by Owltoid

Why wouldn't 5 enhancement be allowed? Why have a specific comp requirement? Just show off what can be done when playing all toons on a team - whether that's 5 protection warriors or 5 elemental shamans or an entirely mixed team - whether that's at 2200 rating or 1000. Just show the world what we can do! It's a simple and fun concept that doesn't need complication.

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because 5 enhancement shamans is the "easiest method possible" but limited success ;)

Well my team is 90 and I am slowly getting my S13 gear to be viable... so I am in with 5 being controlled by lil ol me. I doubt I will do very well but I am all over giving it the good college try.