Mop Death Knights...

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05-29-2012, 09:19 PM
Shodokan

Mop Death Knights...

Alright this is mostly a rant post based on their current iteration on the PTR.

Death Knights have been nerfed to the ground and as a result I will likely be switching characters in MoP. This post will go over their current skills and how they must seemingly be used in PVP.

Rune system
Our tier 75 for talents is fucking retarded. They removed blood tap and added it into rune tap which makes getting reliable strangulates/asphyxiates impossible without rune management (which we cannot do on a boxing team unless we are using runic corruption at the moment unless you want to pray for death runes)

Necrotic strike now costs a death rune and has been nerfed
This forces us to basically take death pact unless we do not wish to have any anti-healing (which for 3v3 is one of the reasons dks are any decent what soever). This forces us also to use plague strike once again or remove howling blast (will need rhyme proc management) and use obliterate instead which does less damage than it does now on live.

Also now only reduced cast by 25%

Soul Reaper
Again... death rune specific usage... more management of resources (fun!) Though this ability is really over powered.

Removal of hungering cold
We now get remorseless winter which is alright but it requires uptime on a target and if you pop it at the wrong time vs say a mage then you're going to have it be a useless talent. Will be good in 5's staggering it though.
If you get CC'd during this time you are screwed and your CD gets wasted... honestly looking like desecrated ground might be the best as it is a secondary get out of jail free card. Will have to test though.

Dual-Wield is not viable for PVP anymore
Plain and simple the runic power generation in comparison is terrible and 2h frost with frost presence has far too much RP and too few GCD to use it all and your abilities at a decent pace putting 2h frost back into UH presence (which doesn't matter ultimately since we use that now and will get more RP overall than before)

Not that I used DW other than for funzies...

Only thing dks really get... that is an improvement
Glyph of Icy Touch
Buffed howling blast's AP coefficient by .2 and range by 10 yards
More frost strikes because every AA gives 15 RP to make up for rune abilities giving less base RP because there is no talent.

How can we get around this?
It seem that the only means to playing them as we currently do would be to change to a FULL DAMAGE usage opposed to necrotic spam even when necessary (necrotic spam would mean only 4 stacks of it per DK now which is hardly worth it seemingly vs a 300k+ health pool. Your AP goes up by about 2x. So your NS only will take about 19k (anti-healing) off fully geared (t2) and do your white damage (dunno what that will be)

So our new rotation will look something like

Option 1:
Soul Reaper > Howling blast > plague strike
Random rune usage: icy touch, strangulate

Option 2: Soul reaper > necrotic strike > howling blast > plague strike
Option 3: Soul reaper > necrotic strike > Oblit > rime
Option 4: Necrotic strike > Howling blast > plague strike (80k heal absorb isn't terrible)
Option 5: Necro/Soul macro > HB > PS
Option 6: Necro/Soul macro > oblit > rime

The saving grace of this comp is the... 200k damage execute if something is below 35% (if the stars align) which is more than 2/3 of someone's HP

Personally I don't see dks being that great. Necrotic strike being on a rune that can be used by ANYTHING screws up how we use our rotations currently.
Survivability in general goes down as well but we get more anti-stuns with glyphed icebound

Might add more to this... tired as hell.
05-29-2012, 10:35 PM
MiRai

Hopefully it isn't as bleak as you make it sound. =\
05-29-2012, 11:39 PM
EaTCarbS

It probably won't end up as bad as you make it seem. Remember that it is still beta, and things are bound to change. I am going to stick with death knights because I don't want to level again >.<
05-29-2012, 11:40 PM
Shodokan

Quote:

Originally Posted by EaTCarbS

It probably won't end up as bad as you make it seem. Remember that it is still beta, and things are bound to change. I am going to stick with death knights because I don't want to level again >.<

I hope there are changes. Its not going to be TERRIBLE, there are just a lot of inherent class problems with their current state on the beta.
05-30-2012, 01:39 AM
ebony

Theres are lot class changes on beta, deathkights but blood are still pending.

Heres a few things to note.

1) if useing pemade the gear is not right there useing old 4.1 pemade char copys still.

2) pvp gear is not fixxed to the new stats we should be getting in 5.0.6

3) if pvp on beta then your going to get oneshooted by buged itams there many wands on beta that are green giveing like 2m spellpower. (therhe gankers on pvp realms that use itams like this just to do this. and yur going to have 89's oneshooting u ike 84s oneshooting 80's

4) blizzard not even looked at pvp so far there just looking at dungons more questing.

5) i nerver seen a beta have so many class changes so fast.

there noway on eath to datamind a class on beta atm not untill level 90 is out and pemades for 90 are open. And we still got the ptr that should have 5.0.6 in the next few weeks if there going to get it out for Aug.
05-30-2012, 02:07 AM
Ughmahedhurtz

Fair enough, ebony, but some of his points regarding the way skill synergy and micromanagement works with the proposed mechanics won't really be affected by 2-million SP wands or obsolete set bonuses. ;)
05-30-2012, 02:17 AM
Khatovar

I thought everyone knew by now, classes aren't ever set until 2 patches after an expansion is released.
05-30-2012, 02:35 AM
EaTCarbS

2 Attachment(s)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khatovar

I thought everyone knew by now, classes aren't ever set until 2 patches after an expansion is released.

http://www.dual-boxing.com/attachmen...1&d=1338359731

Gawd Images hate me today wtf
05-30-2012, 03:02 AM
ebony

Quote:

Originally Posted by Khatovar

I thought everyone knew by now, classes aren't ever set until 2 patches after an expansion is released.

so ture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ughmahedhurtz

Fair enough, ebony, but some of his points regarding the way skill synergy and micromanagement works with the proposed mechanics won't really be affected by 2-million SP wands or obsolete set bonuses. ;)

Oh ya i know but am saying how do you know how its going to work unless you have five off them. and even then i can test my warlocks/shammys all days on the training dummy's and there fine. i can not test in PvP from the points i posted
05-30-2012, 09:03 AM
Fat Tire

Just to clarify its 70k sp green wands , my lock has 85k sp with it.

As for the DK I think they will revert the necro strike to its live usage. There are too many things wrong atm with dks and I think once people are allowed to lvl to 90 we will see more tweaks across all classes. Rogues are in pretty bad shape also, but all range classes and a few melee are looking pretty good.

I think the pvp meta game will change completely in mop, I think the 8 sec cd on dispels is such a game changer. I am talking about the classes that normally get their stuff spam dispelled in arena and now it wont be spam dispelled, huge game changer imo.
05-30-2012, 09:22 AM
Shodokan

Quote:

Originally Posted by ebony

Theres are lot class changes on beta, deathkights but blood are still pending.

Heres a few things to note.

1) if useing pemade the gear is not right there useing old 4.1 pemade char copys still.

2) pvp gear is not fixxed to the new stats we should be getting in 5.0.6

3) if pvp on beta then your going to get oneshooted by buged itams there many wands on beta that are green giveing like 2m spellpower. (therhe gankers on pvp realms that use itams like this just to do this. and yur going to have 89's oneshooting u ike 84s oneshooting 80's

4) blizzard not even looked at pvp so far there just looking at dungons more questing.

5) i nerver seen a beta have so many class changes so fast.

there noway on eath to datamind a class on beta atm not untill level 90 is out and pemades for 90 are open. And we still got the ptr that should have 5.0.6 in the next few weeks if there going to get it out for Aug.

1. The DK I was playing on is 89 and was a copied character to begin with.
2. Wands don't effect the outcome of class changes
3. DK's on the forums are even complaining about the mechanics of runic power, death runes and a few other things... not just me.
4. Most of the talents in the game are PVP centric so how can you even make that statement? Also making contested world PVP zones opposed to instanced PVP areas. Also added blacklist BG feature among other things.
5. Fast class changes for EVERY class other than death knights. The only class changes since the launch of beta have really been glyphs and a few talents which honestly don't matter since they suck anyway for our purposes.

Quote:

I thought everyone knew by now, classes aren't ever set until 2 patches after an expansion is released.

Class balancing is always done every patch. Thats why there are flavor of the month classes. DK's have been OP at least 1-2 seasons per x-pac (just like rogues and mages, warriors but unlike them have been actually bad at times, though warriors now are bleh) since their release, so I'm not going to just put them on the back burner.

My main point is that if something isn't changed from their current iteration, the micromanagement for playing the class will make it much harder to multi-box efficiently. With cataclysm's difficulty in comparison to older expansions i just don't want DK only players to get frustrated with the game when they aren't facerolling quite as hard.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Tire

Just to clarify its 70k sp green wands , my lock has 85k sp with it.

As for the DK I think they will revert the necro strike to its live usage. There are too many things wrong atm with dks and I think once people are allowed to lvl to 90 we will see more tweaks across all classes. Rogues are in pretty bad shape also, but all range classes and a few melee are looking pretty good.

I think the pvp meta game will change completely in mop, I think the 8 sec cd on dispels is such a game changer.

It will change a bit, but there is SO MUCH CC that the 8 second cooldown can REALLY screw you over if they are chaining well enough. This is the only place I think DK's shine, because of desecrated ground + lichborne.

I hope they do revert it, at the very least.
05-30-2012, 10:47 AM
Fat Tire

If dk changes go thru I may dump the dk in my ret-ret-dk team and replace with a warrior on my melee team.
05-30-2012, 11:23 AM
Shodokan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Tire

If dk changes go thru I may dump the dk in my ret-ret-dk team and replace with a warrior on my melee team.

I was thinking the EXACT same thing.
05-30-2012, 07:52 PM
Mosg2

I think you guys are being too negative. Soul Reaper is a huge gain for our DPS and burst. The new rotation will just be:
Soul Reaper --> Howling Blast --> Necrotic Strike --> Frost Strike

Efficient rune usage, AE pressure, great burst. What more do you want? We still have the best array of defensive cooldowns and the easiest time of any melee staying on target.

Ret Paladins are a second to the DKs. I'm not sure how close they'll end up being but the ability to burst like they can plus all the passive healing they get is pretty damn good.
05-30-2012, 08:18 PM
Fat Tire

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mosg2

I think you guys are being too negative. Soul Reaper is a huge gain for our DPS and burst. The new rotation will just be:
Soul Reaper --> Howling Blast --> Necrotic Strike --> Frost Strike

Efficient rune usage, AE pressure, great burst. What more do you want? We still have the best array of defensive cooldowns and the easiest time of any melee staying on target.

Ret Paladins are a second to the DKs. I'm not sure how close they'll end up being but the ability to burst like they can plus all the passive healing they get is pretty damn good.

Nah- I dont know how you would keep up that rotation when both soul reaper and necro strike both need death runes and in the current iteration you wont be able to spam HB. You will be gcd capped as its no where near as fluid as it is on live with rune regen. While you will gain insane RP in frost presence you have to wait to use it, if you go unholy presence you are RP starved while your rune regen is great. All dks lose blood tap unless you take it in the talent which is a mistake unless you are blood. Not to mention ams can be dispelled now and the loss of desecrated ground thru necro strike was the main reason I had one in my 3s team, I counted on that aoe snare for my pallies.

Now I only use one dk in my boxing team but I dont like the current version on beta, its really clunky. However, the ease of which they are able to box will make it hard not to play the one in my team.
05-31-2012, 10:39 AM
Shodokan

You are both right. I think there is the misconception that i feel dks are going to be super gimped. That isn't the case at all. They will still be strong I just feel that rets will likely out-shine them at least in both class' current state.

MOSG, death runes are the price of necrotic strike... so that would be replaced with plague strike. Frost strike is also the highest priority as it does the most damage and resets runes/gives rune regen speed. If necrotic strike was still on unholy runes there would be no problem

As far as the runic power situation... Unholy 2h is what most people are using as they have TOO MUCH RP with frost, each autoattack in frost gives them 30 RP which is almost enough for a frost strike... but the GCD is 1.5 seconds. I mean this might end up being the route we go if the rune regen is abysmally slow but we still have good RP generation when we are ON TARGET because of the 15 rp per auto attack. The main problem is that howling blast and such all generate 10 runic power opposed to 20 which severely lowers our runic power usages.

Also unholy presence can no longer have 120 RP so we are limited to a burst of 3 frost strikes.
Dk's have a whole lot of positives though like MOSG says but I disagree with the burst statement.

Pros
Most get out of jail free cards of any class [Lich, desecrated ground, ams, pet sac, icebound, pillar of frost (anti-ele/boom, trinket)
Offensive dispel. (glyphed)
AOE frost damage and slow (not reduced by armor)
Possibility of anti-healing
High burst below 35%
Silence or stun possibilities (2 of each to change drs but reduces the amount of people slowing so you have a higher duration CC chain)
AOE stun (only negative here is you need uptime to make it work)
Quite a bit of self healing
Death Grip

Cons
New system for runes is clunky and the choice between corruption and empowerment isn't really clear as well as rune regen is really low in comparison to live.
Runic power generation outside of frost presence is mediocre
Loss of blood tap which means no on demand silences anymore (really effects us)
Squishy and after icebound they can just fall over to melee
nerfs on a lot of abilities
Don't really feel anti-casterish anymore.
Burst damage significantly reduced above 35% due to runic power limitation and generation reducing our usage of frost strike which in turn reduces our ability to use other abilities due to less runes to use.
Forced into 2h frost as dual-wield does not generate enough RP for stable PVP usage.

Basically we are now a damage dealing class much like a warrior with little usage for anti-healing at the cost it is at. Not as anti-casterish as we once were.

I honestly don't want to discuss stacking rets as i don't want it to get nerfed like some of the things were before launch that we were discussing for cata. If someone wants to do so PM me some contact info.

I do feel that warrior burst damage and CC is superior to dks right now on beta though which would make them more ideal for those of us who are going to be playing 3's.
05-31-2012, 10:38 PM
Fat Tire
What ever you do make sure your DKs are undead....
Undead

Underwater Breathing has been renamed Touch of the Grave: Your attacks and damaging spells have a chance to drain the target, dealing 13,680 Shadow damage and healing you for the same amount.
05-31-2012, 10:44 PM
Shodokan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fat Tire

What ever you do make sure your DKs are undead....

Undead

Underwater Breathing has been renamed Touch of the Grave: Your attacks and damaging spells have a chance to drain the target, dealing 13,680 Shadow damage and healing you for the same amount.
dafuq?!

AFK server/faction changing/re-rolling
06-01-2012, 06:13 AM
zenga

I doubt that change will make it to live together with will of the forsaken. Previously they said that they wanted to address the retardedly OP human racial as well (can't recall seeing a chance here though).
06-01-2012, 08:26 AM
Shodokan

Quote:

Originally Posted by zenga

I doubt that change will make it to live together with will of the forsaken. Previously they said that they wanted to address the retardedly OP human racial as well (can't recall seeing a chance here though).

Or they could be making one race on each faction OP. Honestly i think if they changed WotF to the same thing as EMFTS it would work just as good as nerfing EMFTS. Regardless If this does go live I will def re-roll.
06-01-2012, 09:00 AM
Fat Tire

EMFH is getting nerfed in mop by the pvp power/defense mechanic by default. This racial for undead I think will make it in some form. I cant see this being op on players which all have 300k+ hit points unless it scales with mastery. A 20% proc is is nice, no idea if it will have an internal cooldown, but in terms of boxing dks I think this sends them to the top along with having wotf. If anything is OP racial wise its pandarians racial.
06-01-2012, 12:02 PM
Shodokan

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Tire

EMFH is getting nerfed in mop by the pvp power/defense mechanic by default. This racial for undead I think will make it in some form. I cant see this being op on players which all have 300k+ hit points unless it scales with mastery. A 20% proc is is nice, no idea if it will have an internal cooldown, but in terms of boxing dks I think this sends them to the top along with having wotf. If anything is OP racial wise its pandarians racial.

stacking pandaren racials though isn't smart as it DR's with itself, one or two though would be nice. But that is only if we don't change the AOE blind to an incapacitate because that would nerf the duration of either the racial or the AOe throwdown.

even with pvp defence (resil) and such one of those if procing on 4 = 10% of their life... which if the proc chance is decent enough with a decent icd it can be very potant for us.
06-18-2012, 10:18 AM
Fat Tire
Just wanted to update this thread as opposed to starting a new one., Recently there were some changes to DKs

http://static.mmo-champion.com/mmoc/...athknights.gif Death Knight
- Frost Presence now increases Runic Power generation by 20%, down from 100%. Now also reduces the duration of effects that remove control of your character by 20%. No longer increases your maximum Runic Power by 30. Also reduces the cost of your Frost Strike by 0 for Frost specialization Death Knights.
- Unholy Presence no longer reduces the global cooldown on your abilities by 0.5 sec.
Frost
- Improved Frost Presence (New) While in Frost Presence, your Frost Strike ability costs 15 less Runic Power. Death Knight - Frost Spec.
- Might of the Frozen Wastes no longer allows your autoattacks to generate 15 Runic Power. Now also allows your Obliterate to deal 50% more damage.
- Obliterate had weapon damage increased to 250% from 200% and base damage increased by 56%.
Unholy
- Improved Unholy Presence (New) While in Unholy Presence, your attack speed and rune regeneration are increased by an additional 10%. Death Knight - Unholy Spec.
Unholy & Frost
- Improved Icy Talons was renamed to Unholy Aura. Increases the melee and ranged attack speed of all party and raid members within 100 yards by 10%. Death Knight - Unholy & Frost Spec.
I got to test out a little on sunday and I like the changes. Obl are hitting really hard 200k+ on dummies and frost stike doing nice dmg as well 80-100k ,just cant remember exact numbers. Numbers might get toned down a bit, but overall looks pretty decent or might stay the same given pvp power. For pvp I will probably go blood tap for the best utilization of soul reaper and to a lesser extent necro. Lichborne/dc heals are nice got 2 70k heals and I am not sure if I will go conversion or death pact I got 160k heal with DP which will be much higher given the larger hp pools and I like that there very little requirement to get that heal. I will go deaths advance because in pvp it will be a dps boost given that white hits count for alot more dps now than on live.

With all that said if they leave permanent death runes for frost like it is in beta I see dks being the best.
06-18-2012, 10:06 PM
Shodokan

I'm not really a fan of the changes personally. I mean... 200k hits will be nice but getting to melee range to do them won't be that easy =P
06-19-2012, 08:50 AM
Fat Tire

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shodokan

I'm not really a fan of the changes personally. I mean... 200k hits will be nice but getting to melee range to do them won't be that easy =P

Its never easy. I played 10 2v2 games on the beta and deaths advance as frost just felt really nice to have and I felt a huge difference in moblity than on live playing as frost.