Frost DKs

Considering the buffs to Frost Strike, Howling Blast and Blood Runes becoming Death Runes permanently in Frost spec, do any of you have any theorycrafting to decide between haste and mastery for 2h Frost DK?

I changed between mastery and haste several times now and atm I find haste better in Arena. The reason is because the more hits I can get in while the target is melee range the better. Usually a smart target will not stay in melee range more than 2-3 seconds. With mastery and especially if you stay in Frost Presence, you get one hit or two, and by the 3rd second your target is out of range.

So what do you guys think? Haste or mastery in 4.1?

I would say Mastery all the way.

Let me explain, with Hast yuo hit a bit faster with your auto attacks. As you say, the target will be in melee just a few sec.. and for those few sec hast will max give you 1 more white attack from all guys. so you might get 3 white instead of 2 white.. yeah ? Its also a mater of Killing machin procs which i tested out going max hast on my DK and i didnt really see it procing more often, I'm DW ofc. so i will have it procking on most of its hiden CD anyway.

With mastery you will in same sinario hit 2 instead of 3 white hits, but your FS hit harder for the hits you get on them then. And when they move out of range you might wanna finish off with HB and ofc you want that to hit harder then.

What i dont understand is why ppl go 2h when DW is more dps anyway ? As a DK you want to crit, since crits from a DK hit harder then all other classes. So DW will produse alot more crits throught killing machine then 2h's.

Any reason why so many use 2hs as boxers ? i solo played as DW frost for a long time.

Not that it is totally applicable to boxing always, but the pvp section on Elitistjerks suggests for a Frost DK:
5% Hit > 195+ Spell Pen > Haste > Mastery > Crit

Part of Haste, is more Runic Power... which is more Frost Strikes.
Part of Mastery is harder hitting Frost Strikes/Howling Blasts.



The thread suggested a Two-Hander and Unholy Presence, which is what I'm doing.
So I'll lean towards Haste > Mastery, but am not sure it is a huge difference as they're both nice bonuses.

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Originally Posted by Ualaa

Not that it is totally applicable to boxing always, but the pvp section on Elitistjerks suggests for a Frost DK:
5% Hit > 195+ Spell Pen > Haste > Mastery > Crit

Part of Haste, is more Runic Power... which is more Frost Strikes.
Part of Mastery is harder hitting Frost Strikes/Howling Blasts.



The thread suggested a Two-Hander and Unholy Presence, which is what I'm doing.
So I'll lean towards Haste > Mastery, but am not sure it is a huge difference as they're both nice bonuses.

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Do you have a direct link? I can never find my way around that website.

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Originally Posted by xtobbenx

I would say Mastery all the way.

Let me explain, with Hast yuo hit a bit faster with your auto attacks. As you say, the target will be in melee just a few sec.. and for those few sec hast will max give you 1 more white attack from all guys. so you might get 3 white instead of 2 white.. yeah ? Its also a mater of Killing machin procs which i tested out going max hast on my DK and i didnt really see it procing more often, I'm DW ofc. so i will have it procking on most of its hiden CD anyway.

With mastery you will in same sinario hit 2 instead of 3 white hits, but your FS hit harder for the hits you get on them then. And when they move out of range you might wanna finish off with HB and ofc you want that to hit harder then.

What i dont understand is why ppl go 2h when DW is more dps anyway ? As a DK you want to crit, since crits from a DK hit harder then all other classes. So DW will produse alot more crits throught killing machine then 2h's.

Any reason why so many use 2hs as boxers ? i solo played as DW frost for a long time.

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Ok lets go through this post and dissect it.

Haste increases rune regeneration and not just the speed at which you autoattack. If they are using 2h weapons and they get 3 to 2 ratio for attacks then they have more chances to use frost strike than the dual wield user which gives you more runes to use over time. With the runes being death runes 100% i think that it is key to make sure you are getting them back as fast as possible which haste does indeed help with.

Your argument that you do more damage with howling blast/frost strike is fine but in the end it is the fact that you are either going to get ~10% damage increase per attack or increase the amount of attacks done because of rune regeneration. This also comes into play with the whole 2 hander vs dual wield since your 2hander when you swing has a chance to allow you to gain runic power which can effectively give you more frost strikes thus more overall damage in a PVP setting.

Killing machine has no "hidden" aspect to it and is based upon weapon speed. There are times when you get it 3 times in a row and times when you get it none for 10 seconds.

Dual wield does about equal damage with frost strike and obliterate as 2h, and 2h gets more frost strikes... and generates more runic power. The ONLY time you should be using dual wield is if you are running with proc based trinkets with no ICD like hurricane for the RNG damage. Dual wield only hits as hard as 2h if not a little harder for frost strike and oblit...it does nothing for necrotic.

So basically it comes down to...
faster rune regeneration =more rune based attacks = more runic power = more chances to get more runes
or
more damage = more damage

Shodokan:

I dont belive this is correct. Last week i wanted to test hast out, so i reforged all item into hast, I used a trinket with 253 hast. had a total of 53% hast. I start hiting a target dummy and was expecting my runes to come off CD faster but no, they was still on 9 and 8 sec when i did 2 obli in a raw. I could not see any speed change in which the runes it self would come back from CD. but i did see that my runic power bar got full quite fast. You can test this out but i cant see that i noticed anything happening with the CD on the runes it self.

That said, thoes 3 sec in melee on a target will still be the same for both, only that the hast DK will get 1 more white, while the mastery will have its FS or HB hiting harder.

And rune gaining as DW is really not a problem, In arena (i solo play) i hardly ever get a free global CD in which i would need more runic power. Its more of the opposite where i get it full before i'm done with my obli, BS rotation.

shodokan is correct, the rune regeneration DOES speed up, but you wont PHYSICALLY notice it without an exact rune timer addon, and to actually see a full second come off the rune regen you're going to have to have over 80 % haste... COULD get there, but you'd sacrifice more dmg than you'd want/wouldn't be effective.

The reason you don't go DW in pvp is that armor double dips, you're taking a dps hit twice(one on each hand) due to the armor contribution. On one hand, dw does mean a few more white hits and it will seem like more steady dmg, the two hander makes for more burst.

In any case i imagine i'll be using the two hander for a while :) I'll be using a dps sequence of 2 howling blast 4 necrotic strikes, runic empowerment 3 obliterates. then popping howling blast off the rime procs. Since howling blast will be our mostly bread and butter for putting pressure out, the more mastery we have, the better it will be imo. Haste works great, but imo with frost strike AND howling blast AND frost fever(our frost damage over time) we're seeing a LOT of benefit from mastery.

I'm with Ghono here. I forge for mastery on my guys simply for the reason that 80% of my damage comes from frost damage spells. On a percentage damage per point basis mastery gives a better improvement to these spells than haste.

The other thing I like about the mastery is that it effectively increases my burst. Sure over a full rune regen cycle this will even out but if I can open with 2-4 howling blasts from 30y which get an extra 30% from mastery, over a 1-3 second period, then the opening pressure is so much more than if those runes regenerate in 9 seconds instead of 10. If you are running in frost rather than unholy then you can argue that haste will be more value as it lowers your GCD too, but the extra run speed from unholy is too valuable to give up.

I think as boxers we have a different damage profile than single boxers which means that we tend to rely more on the easy ranged spells like howling blast for damage than the extra physical dps from whit hits and oblits. For this reason I believe that stat weighting should be more along the lines of:

+195 spell pen>5% hit>str>mastery>haste>crit

In arena spell pen is unbelievable. 95% percent of teams you face will be running 195 frost resist through auras. This gives something like 25% frost damage reduction so for those 195 stat points you effectively get a 25% increase of 80% of your damage. I completely underrated the need for this initially but to me, these numbers more than justify preferring this over hit even before cap. Where this falls down is if your enemy doesn't have any resist, the stat obviously has no value.

In 4.10 with the extra HBs coming from death runes and the buf to HB and FS, I think this is going to be even more true. What makes frost DKs so great for boxing is the flexibility of dps. Basically we are a resilient melee class that has awesome ranged spell based damage. Choose your stats to maximise this aspect rather than the melee physical damage and you will maximise this advantage.

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Originally Posted by Firstcow

Do you have a direct link? I can never find my way around that website.

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I waded through thirty odd pages of the stupid thread.
The Cataclysm stuff wasn't at the start or the end.

Looking at others posts in this thread, I can see Mastery > Haste, for a boxer.
If you were micromanaging your toon, and had more time on the target... maybe Haste would be worth more.

I've found in BG's (haven't done arena yet with DK's + Pally), I'm fairly busy.
Just spamming my '1' key.
Which is my weighted castsequence and IWT.
And then mostly Tab to target, the odd Backspace (for Deathgrip, once I have a good target).
And mouse click the raid, or at least those close to me.

Rather than properly manage my cooldowns.
I've hitting/spamming Lichborne, Anti-Magic, just prior to engaging...
And then using Icebound Fortitude if I'm stunned.
Just got the 301 res, pvp trinket for the DK's in the last BG; their first piece of honor gear.
I've got Pillar keybound, but am not in the habit of using it.

For me 2H > 2 x 1H in PvP

With Dual Wield you make more auto Hits and more Auto Hit Damage, 2H is more Style Damage -_-

i have both weapons but i hate me that i buyed the one handed weapons -_-

For a Boxer i think is 2h the best way but i play it with mastery because haste is great but only for runegeneration its too low as Boxer (autohits dont matter as boxer ;) )

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Originally Posted by xtobbenx

Shodokan:

I dont belive this is correct. Last week i wanted to test hast out, so i reforged all item into hast, I used a trinket with 253 hast. had a total of 53% hast.

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You sure about that? There is a visual bug that makes your haste like 30-50% higher than it really is. I have nothing reforged to haste and it shows 48%
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Originally Posted by heyaz

You sure about that? There is a visual bug that makes your haste like 30-50% higher than it really is. I have nothing reforged to haste and it shows 48%
...

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No idea actualy. the % seem quite high yeah, but anyway, the hast i got at that point was close to as high hast you can get unless you really get hest into every posibol gem, item, enchant there is. But thats not really realistic. Intresting info btw. I want my hits to hit hard when i use them so i wont bother with hast at all anyway :P

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Originally Posted by Sephice

For me 2H > 2 x 1H in PvP

With Dual Wield you make more auto Hits and more Auto Hit Damage, 2H is more Style Damage -_-

i have both weapons but i hate me that i buyed the one handed weapons -_-

For a Boxer i think is 2h the best way but i play it with mastery because haste is great but only for runegeneration its too low as Boxer (autohits dont matter as boxer ;) )

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What exactly is Style Damage ?

As i see it.. DW = more auto attack = more killing machin. 2x Enchants, fallen crusater on one, and cinderclace on the other making me proc str and more dps on my frost attacts vs only one of those. All abilitys will still hit for the same only that 2h will show 1 number, while DW will show 2 numbers. I cant see why 2h in anycast could be better then DW. Frost have 'always' been designed for DW over 2h.

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Originally Posted by xtobbenx

What exactly is Style Damage ?

As i see it.. DW = more auto attack = more killing machin. 2x Enchants, fallen crusater on one, and cinderclace on the other making me proc str and more dps on my frost attacts vs only one of those. All abilitys will still hit for the same only that 2h will show 1 number, while DW will show 2 numbers. I cant see why 2h in anycast could be better then DW. Frost have 'always' been designed for DW over 2h.

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I'd rather 18 frost strikes with 15 being crits in the same amount of time that it takes for 15 with 100% crit. It's just you get more attacks with 2h from your hard hitting spells... your autoattack damage is pretty negligible.

this whole debate is arguable, but the common fact we all need to know discussing 2 handers vs 2 one handers is that you need to take upwards of 6 to 8 talent points MORE in the frost tree, sacrificing other talents, JUST to be good with dual wielding. Those talent points are going to be better spent in other areas that are more effective.

DW WILL work, but 2 hander is going to be hitting much much harder WHEN it hits. people are CONSTANTLY running away from you... its hard to get into melee sometimes i've found, and the hits you DO hit are going to be bigger and better with a two hander. In any case, solo play i'd probably be dw frost, but for us 4 /5 boxers 2hand is the biggest bestest game changer :)

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Originally Posted by ghonosyph

DW WILL work, but 2 hander is going to be hitting much much harder WHEN it hits. people are CONSTANTLY running away from you... its hard to get into melee sometimes i've found, and the hits you DO hit are going to be bigger and better with a two hander. In any case, solo play i'd probably be dw frost, but for us 4 /5 boxers 2hand is the biggest bestest game changer :)

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This is exactly that what i mean, thanks! :)

Since i changed to the 2H back ( i bought 2x1 and after that the 2h <-- stupid idiot ;) ) i have an weapon enchant less but much more Burst

I still dont understand this.. Maybe i'm stupid or something, but DW allways hit for a few K harder then 2h does, Like 1 obli as DW do 35k as 2h 32k.. all the data showes this.
Then there is a talent point discussion and i can see this, there is 3 points that are "free" to move else where if specced for 2h. But those will then ofc be used for more runig power (dont remeber the name of the talet) which can be good for adding in 1 more frost strike in the power dump, But i dont have enough globals to fit more in as DW atm, BS BS OB OB FS FS FS then back to start..where i do OB OB OB FS FS FS.

And with cinderclacier on one wep, thoe FS really do hit hard on crits with the proc up. The frost specc is made for DW, its designed around DW, in my mind using the alternative that they put in later for 2h dont really make sence.

Id have to look for the post but blizzard had said pvpers. Would prefer 2h over dw. Its a matter of convenience to just use twohanders i'll cuz dw blood doesn't work for when I feel like pve! _____________________________

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Originally Posted by ghonosyph

Id have to look for the post but blizzard had said pvpers. Would prefer 2h over dw. Its a matter of convenience to just use twohanders i'll cuz dw blood doesn't work for when I feel like pve! _____________________________

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That is true idd. Its a bit annoying that as DW you spend more points total and you cant use them for other speccs.

If you think DW is better for you play it

I would never change back and obliterate and frost strike are not the only things tto make damage

i will try it again in 4.1 ( i like DW style ) but atm in PvP is 2H much better for me, but i am not really a theory man and i need this 3 talent points from the 2H Specc, more CC is for me better than a lil bit more damage