Opinions on Feral Druids, for Cataclysm BG's (Rated and Normal)

This is what I have so far...



The team has stealth, which allows us to pick the battles we want to fight and avoid those we don't. Feral Instinct improves our Stealth, as does the racial Elusiveness. Our stealth is strong.

Combine this with Feral Charge (Kitty) and Ravage, and we have a very strong opener that should just about rape any target. With the charge, Ravage is energy free and the crit chance is increased by 50%, which should have us near 90% crit (x5). The non-crit (at 80th) is 850% damage plus 2516.

Bleeds (Rake/Rip) make up the lion's share of our damage (75%, at 80th). These dots are physical effects, so not subject to decursing. Our Mastery skill increases the effectiveness of bleeds by 3.1% per point. Mangle has been substantially buffed, and while not as strong as Shred, is not that far behind. A working and effective DPS rotation is fairly simple; not optimal like a single box druid, but quite powerful. Mangle > Rake > Mangle > Mangle > Rip, then repeat but Ferocious Bite instead of Rip (Ferocious Bite, refreshes the Rip duration on targets below 25% health).

Tiger's Fury, and trinkets gets us burst on demand.

The team has mobility. Cat Form is +30% movement. Travel Form is +40% movement. Shifting will break any root/snare effect. We can power shift, via /Cast !Cat Form, which won't take us out of Kitty but will count as a shift to remove any snare/root. Cat Form has the skill Dash, +70% movement for 15 seconds. Then we round-robin our Stampeding Roar, +40% movement for (6x5) 30 seconds. Aquatic Form (minor glyphed) is +100% swim speed. All shape shift forms render us immune to Polymorphs too. Flight Form is instant, and as a Night Elves we can Shadow Meld even in the middle of combat and then Flight Form away to fight another day.

Any finishing move has a 20% chance per combo point, to make our next Nature Spell of under 10 seconds cast time an instant cast. Ferals stack Agility, and to a lesser extent Stamina; in addition talents increase our crit chance by 9%. Even in sub iLV200, mostly fresh to 80th gear, a Kitty has approximately 40% crit; in PvP gear, even against a high resilience target crit chance is over 50%. Primal Fury gets us two combo points on a crit, our other moves give one combo point. Our rotation is four moves and then a finisher. Even with only 40% crit chance (60% chance to not crit), we have 0.60 x 0.60 x 0.60 x 0.60 = 12.96% chance of no crits, or 87.04% chance of at least one crit; but given four moves, this translates even more favorably: 4 CP's (12.96% chance) gets us an 80% chance of the proc (12.96 x 0.80 = 10.368%) and 5 CP's (87.04% chance) gets us a 100% chance of the proc (87.04 x 1.00 = 87.04%) for a total chance of 97.408% an instant cast Nature Spell.

Think Healing Touch x5, or instant Cyclone, or a battle rez (which glyphed is a 100% HP rez). Combined with instant cast Entangling Roots (glyphed), an instant Cyclone is very effective crowd control.

Hybrid mana pool sucks, but every melee crit replenishes 4% of our health and mana... so it can be very quickly recuperated. In addition, the team each has Innervate. I really like that everyone can heal and everyone can rez.

Fear is the bane of most boxing compositions. Any priest, warlock or warrior can send your team scattering in five different directions. Berserk is 15 seconds (20 glyphed) of Fear Immunity, plus it breaks fear effects. And our attacks cost only half as much rage, which means double damage (energy permitting) for the duration. Berserk (usable every 3 minutes) counts as the first fear, and the trinket will cancel the second fear; with diminishing returns, if they're still alive the last fear won't last more then a couple seconds and then we're immune.

Against melee we can use Thorns, which is a punishing damage shield. This is particularly nasty for fast attacking classes. Bear Form is another option, against melee and it drastically reduces physical damage taken. And add in Frenzied Regeneration. The other Bear Form trick is Feral Charge, for the Stun.

Both Cat/Bear have Survival Instincts, 50% damage reduction for 12 seconds. Barkskin reduces all damage by 20%, also for 12 seconds; the two effects stack. Nature's Grasp (usable in Feral Forms) lasts 45 seconds, on a 60 second cooldown; 3 charges each giving a 100% root chance.

Skull Bash is a spell interrupt the same as Kick. Two of my druids will spec into Brutal Impact, which reduces this to a 10 second cooldown. With five druids, a spell caster can be locked out of a schools for upwards of 30 seconds; longer, if more druids spec'd into Brutal Impact.

The Druids have slightly different primary specs. One has taken Feral Aggression and the Faerie Fire glyph, for a full three-stack Faerie Fire on a single application. Another has Infected Wounds for the 50% snare and 20% melee attack speed penalty, this Druid also has the Rake glyph, for PvE purposes. The third Druid has all the Bear related talents, and the Maul glyph which opens up PvE options. The remaining two Druids have Brutal Impact for the extended Pounce duration and reduced Skull Bash cooldown, plus have taken the Battle Rez glyph for 100% B.Rez's.

They all have Resto as an off-spec. This opens up a change of pace, option. And PvE with the same team.

Prime glyphs include: Berserk (+5 second duration), Mangle (+10% damage) and Rip (+15% damage).
Major glyphs are: Entangling Roots (insta-cast), Thorns (-20 seconds, cooldown) and the third varies for each Druid.
Minor glyphs are: Aquatic Form (+50% swim speed), Dash (20% cooldown reduction) and Rebirth (no reagent).

I'll have standard tricks, like:

Code:

---

Druid A:
/Targetenemyplayer
/Cast Cyclone

Druid B:
/Targetenemyplayer
/Targetenemyplayer
/Cast Cyclone

Druid C:
/Targetenemyplayer
/Targetenemyplayer
/Targetenemyplayer
/Cast Cyclone

Druid D
/Targetenemyplayer
/Targetenemyplayer
/Targetenemyplayer
/Targetenemyplayer
/Cast Cyclone

Druid E
/Targetenemyplayer
/Targetenemyplayer
/Targetenemyplayer
/Targetenemyplayer
/Targetenemyplayer
/Cast Cyclone

Each Druid will select a different target, within range.
To a maximum of five opposing players. 
It won't target pets/totems etc.

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I paly ferals at first in low lvl bgs. I just found them too squishy without heals.I tried one resto and that was much better. After testing I went with 2 restos. Its really balanced this way, but you can't global anyone, and feral burst is really not good.

I would love you to try it out. I've got tons of macros made, and I'll def be stealing your cyclne macro. I had no idea you could stack target enemies in macros t work out that way. What I was doind was wait for predator swiftnes proc assist main and apply. It wasn't as good as yours that's for sure.

Are you going to pvp, if so, from my experience I left out all fb stuff, it just doesn't do enough dps I found and it was so situational I found.

I'd consider putting in more fb in my setup, but I need some sort of combo point display on my main from slaves.

If you want some macros, I,ve got plenty now.

Low level burst is not the same as high level burst... new abilities matter way too much for damage.

Out of curiosity, what do you mean by that?
Ferals (Cat's anyway) don't get new DPS moves, burst or otherwise.


5x Ravage, from stealth as an opener.
Virtually guaranteed to crit, for each druid.
That's the opening burst.

Beyond that, Tiger's Fury + Trinkets and Bersker are the burst tools.

In the current game, Bleeds are very strong DPS.
And everything I've seen/read of beta, they're strong at 85 too.

I think Sho was talking about Sbrowne's post, not referring to your level 80s, Ualaa.

Ahh, in that context.. the comment makes a lot more sense.

I don't see my 5x Ferals as being that good in arena.
But think/hope they'll be decent in battlegrounds.



Any suggestions for improvement.
Or reasons they won't work, ie., challenges they'll have to overcome...
Are very welcome.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sbrowne55

Are you going to pvp, if so, from my experience I left out all fb stuff, it just doesn't do enough dps I found and it was so situational I found.

I'd consider putting in more fb in my setup, but I need some sort of combo point display on my main from slaves.

If you want some macros, I,ve got plenty now.

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Yes, the primary focus will be battlegrounds, both rated (until max Conquest Points each week) and then non-rated.

Definitely interested in seeing what has been tried before.
What has worked, but also what has not worked and why it hasn't.



I honestly don't like Ferocious Bite that much.
But I've found Rip will randomly fail to apply on top of another Rip (even from the same Druid), with the message to the effect that it cannot overwrite the existing spell.
Ferocious Bite being a straight DD can always apply.

I'm making the assumption... 10x Rakes, 50x Mangles, and 5x Rips, the target will either be dead, or below 25% health at which point the FB will refresh the Rip. There's no guarantee of that.

If a 5CP Rip would always land on a target, without the occasional but consistent glitch, I'd probably omit FB entirely.



The Combo Points are hard to track.

I've basically just decided on a rotation of:
a) Four moves that give Combo Points; and then
b) A move that uses Combo Points.

And then trusting to luck.

Feral Cats have always had an abundance of Crit.
Most often, I'll get at least one crit out of the four moves (in a few hours of tweaking the DPS, the active toon always had at least one crit in four moves).
That's not a guarantee, but again it is quite likely at least most of the time.

The pacing is perfect for Rake uptime.
Unfortunately, Rip should really be allowed to tick a tad longer, before it is again applied.
Messing around for a bunch of hours, it seems the choice is:
a) Rake is perfect, Rip is never allowed to expire but is reapplied too early.
b) Rip is perfect, but the target does not have Rake on them at all times.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ualaa

But I've found Rip will randomly fail to apply on top of another Rip (even from the same Druid), with the message to the effect that it cannot overwrite the existing spell.

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This may happen if you used a trinket or some other ability to increase the damage of the first rip. The second rip would be less powerful (do less damage over time) and therefore fails to be applied. I had the same problem when using thorns, with a message something like "a more powerful spell is active"

That makes sense.

And my macro at the moment is something like this:

#show
/castsequence reset=target Mangle, Rake, Mangle, Mangle, Rip
/cast Tiger's Fury
/use 13
/use 14

Easy fix, thanks.

I learned to add TF in another macro, along with my rocket gloves/trink and any other good stuff

If you put it in your current macro you'll burn it at the start(has no global CD), and waste your 60 energy gain(2 mangles), and also it will fall by the time you reach rip in your macro which is your signature dps.

You want to apply TF before a rip, I usually mash my TF just before, if you apply it afterwards, it doesn't apply to your bleed.


And to Shookan, my druids are 80 now and almost all wrathful. Was just sharing when I changed from 5X feral. Perhaps a better write up would have done the trick lol. You're right about burst, but say compared to a shammy, or a mage, you don't compare well. Nothing dies unless you got rips pouring on them. or a ravage. and rip takes a while to reach in pvp. Which gives your target far to much time to escape.

And yes Ualaa, ravage X5 is a global kill, but if you don't have heals, you'll maybe in a 5v5 kill 2-3 people. I say you try it tho, perhaps it will work for you.

Also, beserk uses a large cooldown, and its also on a global cooldown, so it makes it hard to fire off while mashing a dps macro, you litterally have to stop everything mash mash mash and continue on with your dps macro. I find it kinda annoying lol. I seriously just use it as a second trinket for fears.

One thing I am bad at and want to improve is I never swap to bear form enough lol. You could probably global 1 target with ravage, and get anotehr down in cat form, then swap to bears. They heal alot with leader of the pack, and coupled with there cooldown abilties, you could tear down meele or casters without a healer easily.

And one last thing, you're going to hate mages ALOT lol.

What are people's thoughts on Finisher Moves: Ferocious Bite vs Maim vs Rip.
Searching wowhead and wowwiki, this is what I have on these finishers.



Ferocious Bite is a direct damage effect, with bonus damage based on surplus energy.
- Base damage is ??. Formula, shows maximum damage as lower than minimum, but lists 2705 + 54.5% of Attack Power, before placing the maximum damage 234 points below the minimum.
- Because the damage scales with the excess energy, the glyph to prevent this is not a dps gain.
- Feral Aggression ups the base damage by 10%.
- Rend & Tear ups the crit chance by 25%.
- This hits for greater burst than Maim or Rip, and if you kill the target that's superior to extra DPS over time or a Stun effect.
- Blood in the Water, is a 100% chance to refresh the duration on Rip, if Ferocious Bite is used on a target at or below 25% health.


Maim is a direct damage with a Stun effect.
- The damage is between 885 + (1.55 x minimum weapon damage) and 885 + (1.55 x maximum weapon damage).
- Dot/Ongoing damage will never break the Stun effect.
- Direct damage will break the Stun at the same point that a Fear or Frost Nova would break.
- The stun is 5 seconds in length, and subject to Diminishing Returns sharing reductions with Kidney Shot (Pounce/Cheap Shot are in a separate DR category).
- Maim interrupts players spells, if they're not immune to the Stun portion, but does not interrupt spells when the player is immune to the Stun portion.
- 5 seconds is not long enough to un-target the player and reacquire Stealth, but unless they hit you with an instant, you can use this to reacquire stealth once.


Rip is bleed/dot, so it ignores armor and cannot be dispelled/removed.
- Base damage, (868 + 92% of AP, over 16 seconds).
- Prime Glyph, +15% damage.
- Mangle, +30% damage.
- Affected directly by Mastery.
- Blood in the Water (Talent: When you FB a target below 25% health, there's a 100% chance to refresh the duration on Rip).

i don't think you'll do nearly enough burst with FB in pvp vs resil targets to be able to ignore rip. rip is the main reason people currently think feral druids are OP (correct me if im wrong).

Coming back to this with the possible changes to ferals and bleeds. I may have a different setup. What I get from the blue posts is bleeds are going to be toned down, and all meele abilties aside from rake and rip will do more dmg.

In the base (not Reforged) Blue PvP crafted/auction house set, I have:

105,913 HP's
332, average item level.
3331 Agility
4760 Stamina

9468 AC
1327 Resilience (13.94% reduction)
21.58% Dodge

2.96% Hit
3.26% Haste
38.61% Crit
4 Expertise Rating
13.38 Mastery

3336 Spell Healing (base)
3494 Spell Healing (in Cat)



Rejuvenation (NE)... 1824/tick
Rejuvenation (Cat)... 2189/tick
Lifebloom (NE)......... 318/tick & 3630 Final
Lifebloom (Cat)........ 382/tick & 4188 Final
Regrowth (NE)........ 4600 Initial & 478/tick
Regrowth (Cat)....... 4600 Initial & 574/tick
Healing Touch (NE) 10,500 healed.

In Cat Form, all my druids are part of the ATG that receives repeater region click heals; so no initial hit of Regrowth/Healing Touch while in Cat Form.

No talents/glyphs for healing, aside from +AGI to healing and +20% healing received while in Kitty.



Leaning towards the Regrowth in the place of Berserk, if Berserk loses Fear interrupt/immunity; the auto refreshing of Regrowth on targets at/below 50% health would be nice... Using Berserk, Mangle, Rip at the moment; Tiger's Fury is a rather small boost, and I'm not using Savage Roar in my rotation. In BG's, most things are dead at step 2 of the DPS rotation (Mangle, Rake, Mangle, Mangle, Rip); straight Mangle spam might be optimal DPS for BG's.

Also using Instant Root, Rebirth, Thorns as major glyphs; have not used the Root or Thorns at all; could see those glyphs as being useful as a solo Feral. Have used Rebirth a few times, and 100% health is nice. Leaning towards: Barkskin, Rebirth, Feral Charge as major glyphs.

I think the nerf to berserk not working against fear is too much. I think it should only work vs. fears that are nonspecific to animals. Druids are fear bomb magnets without it. Their inability to keep from being chained feared is going to make multiboxing them without shammy support extremely difficult vs. teams that know what to do.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kromtor

I think the nerf to berserk not working against fear is too much. I think it should only work vs. fears that are nonspecific to animals. Druids are fear bomb magnets without it. Their inability to keep from being chained feared is going to make multiboxing them without shammy support extremely difficult vs. teams that know what to do.

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I'm not so sure. You are immune to poly and hex, and can shapeshift out of snares sometimes. Can't have 1 class immune to everything. PvP wasn't made for 1v1.

i'm not complaining about it as an unfair weakness that druids have, im just saying that as a multiboxer it is an enormous hurdle to overcome since we bear the full brunt of every fear bomb.

With the changes to CC being 8 seconds base you get basically a 4 second fear and then a 2 second fear after you break the first one with your trinket. Considering that you're immune to roots, snares, polymorph and hex that may be enough. I mean, really, only Shaman have good defense vs fear and I'm on the fence whether a 4x Enhance Shaman setup would work in BG's and arenas. Earthbind Totem only removes snares not roots and right now Mages are virtually impossible to stay on as a melee class.

As far as finishers, I'm using long castsequences so that most of my team always does Rip, and I have 2 of my druids that alternate Maim in the mix. Currently 83, and I've only done one level as feral with them. Overall, I'm impressed. BGs has been average, but only because I'm so used to them as boomkin.

I've been playing around between regrowth and healing touch for the occasional free instant cast. Healing touch heals for more without a question, however when I use 4 x Regrowth, I was able to clear BRC @ 82 by turning my main into a bear and using the other 4 as dps/healers. This is something I never imagined possible as 5xFeral.

i think using rip in PvP will be far superior to FB, because you can nt guarantee you will be in melee range hen fighting as s kitty and everyone has a way to kite you around, pretty much, so when you do get the points, a rip ensures that the target takes 100k DMG if all 5 are 5 pts and thats a LOT to heal through in 16 seconds or whatever it manages to stay on for. Also, if you rip one target and have your rake up, you can safely switch targets with your dots destroying one target, forcing their healers to go MAJOR mana innefficient and healing two targets a once.

Healing Touch vs Regrowth.
- HT is more initial healing.
- Regrowth can be dispelled/spell stolen, but glyphed it will auto refresh on any target (currently 25%) at 50% or lower.



I like Rip the most for Finishers.
At the moment, I don't have the talent where FB refreshes Rip on targets at/below 25%.
In BG's so far (I mostly play AV, as that's the only BG with more than 50% wins - I usually hold towers or retake bunkers), I don't get to land finishers on anyone; they're dead after either Mangle + Rake or sometimes the next Mangle.
But if there was a healer on someone, that would be more of a consideration.



Regarding Berserk.
I wouldn't mind so much if it acted as a Fear break, rather than also making you immune; granted the immunity is nice.
My DPS will likely increase, if the Berserk nerf goes through; at the moment, I save it for the Fear instead tying it to my default DPS as an auto cast.

the berserk nerf kills any potential of this comp being solo boxed to 2200+ i think. your dps wont go up because whereas you saved your berserk for their fear they now save their fear for your berserk. you'll just be running around real angry-like. all boxed teams need some sort of protection against fear bombs or they just wont work. dk's have it, rets have it, shaman have it. feral sadly no more =( my kitties will remain at level 80.

The notes suggest Berserk won't be an activated ability, but rather a chance on any hit to "proc". Similar to omen of clarity maybe? Not overly clear.

I didn't expect to reach 2200 with this composition, or any other really. Just to be competitive and have a lot of fun with it.

I could live without Berserk = Fear Immunity, but it would be really nice if they at least left a clickable ability that broke fear.

Too bad they had to go and destroy the talent trees. Was really looking forward to +5 talent points, and the old trees without new talents added. That would have been Berserk + Nature's Swiftness with four talents left over. Quite a bit of Resto, but that allows for more of a hybrid build.

well, i really felt for the druids lol.

I thought gave power shift a CD would be sufficient. But they just flat out killed it. I haven't seen this massive outcry since the retribution paladin nerf. I guess druids had its time.

General Tactics:
The old adage, pick your fights...

As a Feral team, I have very strong stealth; unless a horde literally ran over my they never noticed, not even if they were close enough to brush shoulders.... easily bypassed 4-5 horde who were "blockading" the choke between IB Tower and IB Graveyard.
Stealth is available 10 seconds after dropping stealth; so I would "power-shift" as I approached an objective, as it takes six second to cap something. As soon as it was tapped, immediately re-stealth as attention is drawn to whatever but it appears no one is there.
Then move away from the objective, and prepare to Charge-Ravage if anyone comes to reclaim it.



Feral Charge can get you places you cannot run to.
Or to enemies who are casting at you from above.
For example, Feral Charge up into the Iceblood Graveyard, by targeting someone up there.
If this was done from Stealth, we are still stealthed on arrival and can choose to engage or not.



Powershifting, was frequently used against root effects.
Simple macro: /cast !Cat Form
I would frequently alternate between this macro and my follow macro.
And disengage, to heal up some in "bad" fights.
Throw in Dash, once I was in the clear.



Unlike with Shammies, Towers vs Bunkers is the exact reverse.
With Shammies, Alliance Bunkers were so much easier to defend and/or recap.
But with a melee team, the "Donut Ring" around the top bluntly sucks, with IWT and Follow.
The best tactic was either Charge-Ravage, Follow Away, Repeat.
Or act as support healing from the stairs upwards almost to the Bunker.
Conversely, getting into the Towers Flag room, while a bit of a pain... it was much easier to fight up there.



I used Stampeding Roar, to give a very slight advantage getting out of the Gate.
Crusader Aura, already on or not on at all was fine.
Having it turned on or off, would frequently cause my mounted slaves to lose follow.



I ended up making a macro, to help my seemingly clueless allies out some.
I would press this once per AV, shortly before the gate opened.

Macro 1:
/bg Fast games = HONOR.
/bg 1. SKIP GALV, we do not want to rez on Def.
/bg 2. Take and HOLD Iceblood Graveyard, so we rez on Off.
/bg 3. Avoid Belinda, we do not want them to rez on Def.
/bg 4. Give them Stonehearth Graveyard, so they rez Off.

Macro 2:
/BG 5. Once IBGY is tapped, leave some there to hold it.
/BG 6. Send LOTS to IBT and TP, these are the key to winning.
/BG 7. Backcapping our middle field bunkers is great too.
/BG 8. At 10 mins in, Galv will be wide open and is really easy honor.

Macro 3:
/BG 9. Send a group to R. Hut, cap it before FW Graveyard.
/BG 0. Talk to Wing Commanders, honor when they make it home.
/BG X. Good hunting.



Large-scale PvP:
Have set up Grid to display eight columns wide, five rows deep.
With my toons always in column one.
And have a Repeater Region over the entire Grid frame.

Stick towards the back of any large scale altercation.
Have each Feral cast a Healing Touch on anyone below 60% health.
Which is anywhere from 50-80k in healing.

Cast five of these, then go into Kitty and run from the combat.
Without auto attack on, or an enemy targeted, combat drops almost right away.
Drink... the conjured mage table food gets me from OOM to full, in 4 seconds or so.
Less than 10 seconds later, start to throw another five heals.

In AV, there are lots of places to heal from unobtrusively.
In the "ditch" (where the harpies and rams are) on the stretch between the last alliance bunker and the hill up to Stormpike.
You can see everyone on the road, via Grid.
And no one seems to clue in where the heals come from.




Medium-scale PvP:
Anytime I came across more than four or five horde already in combat.

My tactics were to Heal as per the large-scale PvP.
And then go into Kitty form, and engage rather than run and drink.

Priority targets were:
a) Mages - these guys die very easily on Pounce, Ravage, Mangle, but are a pain otherwise.
b) Healers - always a priority target.
c) Fear Classes - with both Berserk + Trinkets, these are lower priority but still a priority target.

Mana would regenerate to full after a short combat.
A combination of not casting anything, so full spirit based regeneration.
And gaining mana almost every critical hit, which is better than every third hit.

Finish the combat by topping anyone up who needed it.




Smaller-scale PvP:
Ravage x5, would occasionally down targets (probably lower resilience players).
The first Mangle x5, would drop anyone, if the Ravage did not.
So this combination worked as an auto kill for any target, if I opened from stealth.
And the Ravage is not dependent upon stealth, but healers who were on the ball could react quickly enough to make it a few hits; Pallies bubbling the target were the only way to actually save someone.



Against a solo Paladin or Mage, or if they were the last target in a group.
As soon as they bubble, drop target and stop auto attack.
Run away and stealth.
Easy kill, when the immunity effect drops.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by remanz

well, i really felt for the druids lol.

I thought gave power shift a CD would be sufficient. But they just flat out killed it. I haven't seen this massive outcry since the retribution paladin nerf. I guess druids had its time.

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Power Shifting costs the mana to assume Kitty Form (or whatever form you're already in).
And it costs a GCD, so you're doing nothing else for those 1.5 seconds.

It is useful to break root.
But useless against any snare effect while in combat.
Since those will be reapplied immediately.

It is fairly useful against snare effects when running away.

I'm pretty sure the Power Shift change, is purely to take attention away from the Berserk change.
Something they can relent on, and be seen as on the side of druids.
But who knows, it might actually be a nerf they're looking at implementing.

I have canceled all my accounts.
But have game time, till the third week of March.
If the class sucks after the next patch, I doubt I'll renew.
But whether they nerf druids 29 ways or none, if the class remains fun I will renew.