BG multiboxing strategies?

Man I can't even remember the last time I won a BG. It was never particularly great as a boxer, but it seems much worse now. Maybe things changed or maybe DK/Pally has more impact on the team than quad shaman, which I used to BG on a lot.

I've mostly given up on daily BG's unless it's AV. This week it has been AB or WSG 6 times in a row. No chance there. I think I've completed a total of 3 since the arena point reward was introduced.

Here's how they typically go:

AV:
Reckoning horde are all set on the fail rush strat. On Reckoning, alliance have it down, Horde really don't. It's fail 90% of the time even with me going full force. Since no one back caps or plays defensive anymore, I'm pretty much on my own if I go back and try to cap towers or stop galv/drek. Doesn't work too well with over 30 alliance already there (especially since they seem to have more warlocks and shadow priests than anything else).

AB:
Whichever node I choose to go to first gets capped. Nothing else does. As soon as I leave that node, the entire team follows me. I'll cap another, and we'll lose that one. Cycle repeats. So I camp a node I took, and I can hold it. Shortly after, I discover that 10 people are incapable of assaulting a single node without me, and it's 4 nodes to 1. At that point I can stay there and get 5 capped (15 alliance descend on me), or leave and take another, and then we still only have one. Straight zerging nodes never works for me because of all the curious pugs following me around. They won't defend a node, no matter how nicely you ask. Everything I take is gone within seconds of me leaving. Did this 6 times this week, 0 wins. It's been the daily all week too.

EOTS:
I used to get a decent win rate on the shaman, and be able to carry bad pugs some of the time. My strat was mostly to cap bases as quick as I could, and go for flag if we had 2 or more. Problems now:
- If I cap a base, consider it gone unless I stay there
- If I defend my base, the other 10 are incapable of either assaulting or defending anything else.
- At some point nothing else will be capped unless I leave and do it myself. Then it repeats.

WSG:
A few things I've tried. They never work:
- Carry the flag myself. I can get it back to our base just fine, but the other 5 are completely lost wi thout me - they'll never, ever return our flag unless I help. In which case, they won't heal or support me and I'm likely to lose it in the process.
- Just kill everything I see. Control the middle, camp the GY even. Gib their flag carrier. Too bad the other 5 never manage to pick up a flag, or if they do, they will lose it (with 4 others supporting them?) without my help. Didn't know it took 10 people to run a flag.

IOC:
30 min queue. Waste of time.

SOTA:
Horde don't use cannons. Ever. Alliance love them, and they work. 10 pugs apparently cannot kill a single vehicle. I have to do it. If I'm dead or tied up, sieges roll right on through and get to the chamber no problem. Horde on offense? Oh, they don't like vehicles just like they don't like cannons. We won't have any. I'd love to help defend them, but we don't have any.


Queue times are 5-30 min depending on BG. Win rate is bad overall, and the honor gain is abysmal. I've been farming all of my honor via heroics (stone keeper's shards) and doing WG once a week. What's the point of BGs in their current state.

I'd be curious to know if anyone still BG's on a regular basis and how they do. If it's not just me, I wonder how effective multiboxing in rated BGs is going to be. My sense is, not very effective at all. These are pugs obliterating my team. Imagine a full premade on vent.... sounds depressing

Hei Heyaz,

let me describe this from the other side, but first sorry for my maybe bad english. I am quadboxing shamans on alliance side. The only BG quests i cannot complete are WS and SOTA. I don't know why but alliance on my realmpool is to stupid for these battlegrounds.

AV: Depends on the BG. Most times we rush and win. But i will go back and tap our towers back. 90% Chance to win.

AB: If the other manage to go away from me and tap bases we will win. Most of the time i start this bg with a rush to the blacksmith. Most of the time when we manage to hold the middle, we will win. 30% Chance to win.

IOC: Around 1 min invite time in my battlegroup. This bg start with a rush at the docs or with a rush at the hangar. After that i will go and try to cap the other points back. 50% Chance to win.

EOTS: I will just run around and tap bases. Most of the time this will work and we will just win, because our horde is zerging the middle :)

Really sounds like you're just getting shitty teammates. I get this a lot, within 30 seconds someone has started bitching about the boxer (meanwhile this person will never dismount, just type stupid shit in /BG, even while I murder an endless train of enemies in front of his staring eyes). The rest of the raid will run around at first, but eventually I see them standing next to me... prolly mounted.

EOTS / AB: All you can do in a shitty AB is hold your node. I rush BS, hold it - then I help call out incs. When empty, stables are a quick steal (mount + frost across the lake, take it while watching BS, and run back. Just keeps them guessing). 15 man BGs depend heavily on the other 10 people, and they will rarely admit this.

WSG: Here I do much better. Mount rush the flag, come out tunnel and B-line their FC. He rarely RARELY makes it by me (save grip). The shitty part about WSG is keeping your flag on it's spawn. Many games I end up making a slow slow slow push towards our flag room due to constantly reacquiring and killing nonstop flag grabbers. Teammates still matter here, but much less. If you get a pocket healer of some type it's over. Just get 1 cap and it's over.

Honestly, it just sounds like your groups have sucked (maybe combined with a organized enemy team can seem 2x as bad). Try a different time of week / day, as this will generate different pools of people usually. Also, I made a macro explaining quickly how to help a boxer win. Basically "I'm a boxer. To win please do the following. 1) Never never follow me. 5 people in 1 spot is enough. 2) Capture and hold a different node, I will be holding BS" etc etc. You will always get the assholes who start bitching and the assholes who /afk immediately... but if you hit the macro early it will allow enough time to fill their spot. Just like on the shamans, once I got more gear and more luck, we started winning more, and all of a sudden the haters greatly lessened.

My story for AV:

Battlegrounds played 554
Battleground played the most Alterac Valley (552)
Battlegrounds won 289

This is roughly over a 3 month period.

In the 60-69 and 70-79 bracket i've played around 175 bg's. With less than 25 wins. So in the 80 bracket i have around 70% win ratio.

I play those in pve gear, with a pally tank, shammy healer and 3x ele. I use the same macro's for pvp as for pve. Knowing that pvp gear and macro's would be better, that's a work for later though.

I've been taking screenshots after every battle of both alliance / horde team. After a certain period you will recognize the players from both sides. As i play on reckoning EU, we often face premade germans. They have a strategy for max honor, and it's very predictable where they go and what they gonna do. Still not much i can do there as a boxer (they recap towers with 12-15 skilled pvp'rs). Bottom line, i try to avoid those AV's as much as possible.Since german speaking realms are never mixed up with english speaking realms in the same team, it makes there are actually 2 queues.

Since the new pvp season, it has been a trend to just rush. But it's fairly simple: if both teams rush without any defense/obstacles, the alliance is done when we just started, regardless of dps and group make up. The map favors them.

First thing i do waiting in the cave for AV to start is inspect the warriors, druids, pallies & dk's. To see if there is a tank who stands out. HP wise. If there is one with a significant amount of HP, there is a good chance that a rush will work. As a boxer i go to the room of drek, and ask in bg chat '2-3 people wanted to go def our general with me to break the alliance rush so ours succeed'. I have that macro'd. In 99% of the time i get 3-5 people with me, because i give a reason why and because i don't argue with the blind rushes. Instead they get motivated to succeed. If there is no 'imba tank' they often ask me to tank. Which i refuse.

Sometimes horde has a full team while alliance are only 25. I dunno why but it takes a minute or 5 before they are 40. People think this is the right time to rush. Basically it's the opposite: when they are outnumbered they tend to go defence, making a rush harder. If we outnumber them at the start, then we should cap every bunker possible, defend galv and have minor defence. By the time they have a complete team and get organized, bunkers are almost down. With 2 bunkers down it means that Van can be easily killed by a group that happens to end up north.

Whenever i know i'll respawn at the alliance HQ, i just go suicide. Buff up and run in.

When you are ready to go inside to kill van, but there happen to be a few allies defending him, many hesitate and try to kill those allies first by playing hide and seek. They aggro the general & friends, he will run around and kill half of your group. This is the worst you can do. You need to run in as 1 group, tank & 3 dps focus on general, and then a few guys who just keep the defenders busy. It doesn't matter if they get killed, they should just hold the defenders off the MT, healer and dps. I can't tell how many times we've lost an AV we should've won because some lock or hunter sends in his pet while being ready to get inside.

Whenever there is a turtle you'll shine as a ranged boxer. Mages & hunters are your worst enemies. Try to kill them first, or persuade a melee to kill them and take one for the team. Having a few hunters in your own team makes a big difference. Now what i often see is the jojo turtle. It start's near icewing bunkers, we push them back through the valley, and after the corner near DB bridge and their graveyard, they start to push them back. Unless you outnumber them, the best strategy is just to stand before that corner, halfway down the hill, and let them come. Anything further makes your losses worse as they respawn so fast and have a short walk to get back into the fight. Not to mention that some hunter or mage can climb up the hills where you can't reach them and practice their dps without any worries. Whenever my teammates want to push them beyond the corner, i just walk back, which usually means they will follow. Best place for a turtule for me is near iceblood tower, when they have to go up the hill and we can just stand on the rock near icewing bunker.

After getting killed i try to avoid any fight on my way to my goal. Even if that means i have to run around them. Getting engaged into combat in the open field will attrack others, and brings you nowhere if you have other plans.

On a final note: even as a boxer you need your teammates. And it's easy to make them do what you want ... if i clean a bunker and someone else happens to be there, i'll let him take the flag. Whenever i see someone is in trouble in the open, i help him with a quick kill and heal. Don't start any arguments and don't react on tards. Try to stay neutral in any bitching going on and there is always a fair share of players that will find that your strategy/request makes sense. When you see that your towers are about to explode, and you are somewhere far away, and when someone recaps them, a simple 'GJ' in chat is a pure win.

Long story short: play with your mini team for the big team, no matter what, you will inspire people and it can't go wrong :)

Oh yeah: if you play multiple AV's after each other, and you lose because 35 allies zerg your poor boxers and your teammates just blindly rush; next time don't defend at all. Cap a quick tower, leave and kill balinda (easy to do as a boxer), it will net you more honor than the alliance rushers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by heyaz

AV:
Reckoning horde are all set on the fail rush strat. On Reckoning, alliance have it down, Horde really don't. It's fail 90% of the time even with me going full force. Since no one back caps or plays defensive anymore, I'm pretty much on my own if I go back and try to cap towers or stop galv/drek. Doesn't work too well with over 30 alliance already there (especially since they seem to have more warlocks and shadow priests than anything else).

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I am on Reckoning, Allaince side....and you are 100% correct. Majority of the time when horde wins in their "zerg" attempt....Alliance still gets more total honor because yall failed to take out Balinda while we downed Galv.
I dont think I have ever run into you on a BG.....so Ill give ya my strat:
1. Go straight to Bal.....wipe the 4-7 horde that deciede not to zerg.
2. Check IW and SH timers....if everything is ok...or timers are still long....then I head back to Dun Baldar.
3. Get to DB...to find that horde has tapped both towers and gy......and are just standing around by flag.
4. Cap North and South Towers if it looks like horde are just waiting for timers to expire before hitting Van.
If it looks like Van is about to be hit....then I just try to zerg and wipe as many horde as possible(usually only gy that they have is waaay south).
5 After we have all of DB in our control....start to make my way south capping and destroying everyting that is not in our possession.

I say 99% of the time Ally gets more honor no matter the outcome. This is all because yall still want to zerg Van. Figure out a way to get these noobs to down Balinda first at least...then yall might get some decent honor.

This speaking for my shammy team:

In AV, I find defense is about the only way to win. Out of all the AVs I've done, I think I've only seen the zerg win 4 or 5 times total. What's stupid is the last zerg we won, we netted very little honor.

What I do is immediately go to galv and defend. Most of the time, this is successful, then I immediately equip the frostwolf insignia and trinket back to base. This has been the key. If I ride back, sometimes I'm successful, sometimes not. By trinketing back, I almost always recap our GY and hold them off long enough for a few others to help me recap the towers, then it turns into a long defense match. The advantage here is that when you kill them, usually no GYs are capped yet, so they are sent all the way back to the starting cave.

The problem is that horde almost never defends our main base. I've seen it so many times where we are winning, then 1 rogue will enter our base and cap both towers and the GY. With the frostwolf insignia, you can change this.

AB is about a 50/50 for me. That depends on if people don't follow me around everywhere. I've used another guildy and had him stay behind the node to prevent caps behind me, and that works very well.

EOTS, one of the easiest ones to win. Alliance almost always go for the flag, and try to zerg FR at the start. I usually start off by defending FR, then immediately moving up to MT. If people aren't following me, we'll have 3 nodes by then forcing the alliance to try and cap BE, and by that time, I'll either grab the flag if it's available, or head straight to DR. If they have the flag, they'll usually hold it at a new node waiting for the node to cap. I'll zerg that and nuke the flag carrier, along with preventing the cap. If you get the flag, just hold it at MT, then give it to whoever is watching and tell them to cap when you get to middle.

WSG. This one is highly dependent on group make ups - both theirs and ours. As long as we have a good flag carrier - druid, paly, mage, rogue, disc priest to carry the flag along with 1 healer, then it's not too bad. It also depends on the opposings teams makeups. I like to start by having my team run in for the flag, and i'll intercept the zerg. Usually I'll die, but I'll take out 3-4 of them, then when the flags are running across middle, I can usually get it back. This is highly dependent on their group make up though. a good frost mage, shadowfury lock, or a few rogues can lock you down hard. My tip: When I need WSG, I'll queue something else along with it shortly before the battle is anticipated. When you enter, look at the group makeup. If you don't have a good flag carrier, and you see 2 locks + 1 mage, I would get out of there quickly. Fortunately when I do get into WSG, very few people bitch about me when they see that I have a 5600+ GS in pvp gear.

IOC - not that bad in bloodlust bg. I can usually pull this off by taking middle and then immediately heading to docks and defending our glaives.

SOTA - the one I hate the most (even more than WSG) as every one my team is always split up. Fortunately, I can do water walking on on my shammys, and path of frost of DK/ret team and get them back together rather quickly. The only strategy I've found that works is to let them barge through everything except the yellow gate, then defend that like a mofo. What makes me hate this battleground the most is the mentality of people. If we start and alliance successfully defend, horde mentality is to let them win quick to get the battle over. However, if we defend successfully, alliance will play it out to the very end. I've had probably just as many ties as I have victories in there, or at least it feels that way.

WSG on Dk+Pallies i found that charging the opposing team head+stomping their asses into the ground works wonders if you tell your team mates to go get the flag while doing so. This way when they all rez you can run to their gy and stomp them again and again...ect. This works well for me

I thought I was going mad to be the only one to have problem in BGs. My exp is very similar. My gear is irrelevant to the problem. We still fail the BGs after I have 0 death 20 killing blows.

DK + 4 Rets are melees. and we are only good for one thing. That is to kill. Not so good with getting other objectives in BGs. 3 out of the 6 BGs are ok for me. They are AV, IOC, and EOTS. The other 3 are fails. AB, WSG, and SOTA. When I was on my shamans, those 3 were not that bad. Another thing is the flame. I am not so good with "ignoring all flames and just do your thing." Skin not thick enough. Someone shouts at me and I usually shout back. This irritated me quite a bit, and hammered the overall BG exp.

Quote:

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AB:
Whichever node I choose to go to first gets capped. Nothing else does. As soon as I leave that node, the entire team follows me. I'll cap another, and we'll lose that one. Cycle repeats. So I camp a node I took, and I can hold it. Shortly after, I discover that 10 people are incapable of assaulting a single node without me, and it's 4 nodes to 1. At that point I can stay there and get 5 capped (15 alliance descend on me), or leave and take another, and then we still only have one. Straight zerging nodes never works for me because of all the curious pugs following me around. They won't defend a node, no matter how nicely you ask. Everything I take is gone within seconds of me leaving. Did this 6 times this week, 0 wins. It's been the daily all week too.

WSG:
A few things I've tried. They never work:
- Carry the flag myself. I can get it back to our base just fine, but the other 5 are completely lost wi thout me - they'll never, ever return our flag unless I help. In which case, they won't heal or support me and I'm likely to lose it in the process.
- Just kill everything I see. Control the middle, camp the GY even. Gib their flag carrier. Too bad the other 5 never manage to pick up a flag, or if they do, they will lose it (with 4 others supporting them?) without my help. Didn't know it took 10 people to run a flag.

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I have no solution to the problems in AB and WSG for 5 man team. But I have an alternative. split your team into two teams if the queue is not that long. Do DK + 2 Rets and DK + 2Rets again. this worked out better for me. and it is obviously just for dailies. 3 man team does not draw so much attention. and works best in AB and WSG. 5 man is a bit of overkill to group up.

Note that you obviously need some gear to use a 3 man team. When under geared, 3 man team is not enough to kill.

as for SOTA. hordes in bloodlust just fails, no hope.

I don't even get hate in BG chat anymore, which is weird. Almost never.. horde are almost completely silent, like either they've pretty much given up or they don't notice/care that I'm a multiboxer. Still, they are all bads. Any time between about 3pm and 2am horde players are a bunch of retarded drooling pumpkins. You can get decent team mates (and bad alliance) like 2am-10am, that is if you can get a queue.

I think (suspect) the queuing system for BGs does gear and group checks. That means, by having high gearscore and a group of 5 man queuing, I am matched against relatively good teams often. and my teammates are usually in shitty gears to balance things out.

BG group is mixed with high GS and low GS players. I took the 5 high GS slots. The rest are likely to be low GS players. Thus, I always get shitty teammates.

Either that or I am just not lucky enough to get good teammates.

Edit: speaking of this, going to try queue "naked" and queue seperately (not in a team). maybe that will help.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by remanz

Edit: speaking of this, going to try queue "naked" and queue seperately (not in a team). maybe that will help.

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I was just thinking this actually. What happens if you equip bad gear when queuing up? Maybe the match you relative to your kill/death ratio or matches or whatever parameter.

I think the big problem with a lot of battlegroups is the invention of premade teams. There are whole websites and groups dedicated to setting them up. On my battlegroup alliance side we all queue with the same group. we have 60-100 people spread out through a few vent servers running multiple 35-45 man premades. It's so bad there is an entire vent channel just for waiting in line to queue for these things. We coordinate queue's and win 99% of our matches. We go for perfections about 10% of the time and occasionally we run 100% gearless and still win no problem.

They love me. They know that I can solo defend balinda and back cap and they always are nice enough to move my guys into their own group. and give me specific orders where they want me. We run every single BG but WSG (I run it solo boxing with them but not much luck with 5) and we win them all 80% or more.

I suggest you go find one of these groups. Ours spam trade channel and theres more than one site for our BG on alliance side.

For AV i see 2 possible improvments:

- scale the npc's with the gear upgrades. They are not hard enough to kill. It's my understanding that they remained the same throughout many gear levels. This should avoid most of the rushes.
- allow bigger groups to queue up (instead of the current 5), i.e. raids. This might have the side effect that people no longer willing to pug an AV.

When i see i'm up against a premade, i just leave. On 3 occasions I made our whole team leaving, so the premades could whack of for honor

hm in alterac I'm always going to drek and kill the alliance raid there, then I go to vandar killing another alliance raid there, tapping north/south tower, win
eye of storm: running fel reaver-mage tower-dr-b11 killing alliance and win
arathi: running lumber mill killing alliance there then back down to the smith, killing alliance again and then I'm waiting between lumer - smith - farm, looking at hp bars of the people who are defending the flag and supporting them as soon as one of them is under attack, usually they aren't attacking more than 2 at the same time so I'm just going to that one with less horde/more alliance
warsong: running alliance base grap flagg - running back killing entire alliance raid - taking back our flagg - win
isle - storming airport, afterwards defending base
strand: defense: waiting on the bridge, form where are the tanks comming? - focusing tanks, if alliance breakes through on both sides I'm defending gold - always focusing tanks
offensive: defending tanks with all cooldowns and rushing up to the chamber whithout tapping graveyards

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zenga

When i see i'm up against a premade, i just leave. On 3 occasions I made our whole team leaving, so the premades could whack of for honor

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I guess I should clarify that out premades are cross realm. Hence the need for a vent and website to coordinate them. We have people from every realm on our battlegroup in our premades. We just line up queues. Hard for anyone to even tell it's a premade.

almost similar to what kruschpak said tho in strand i always def down by a boat killing sieges there...
if they manage to get other side i always leave the 2 sieges with low hp instead of killing them since hp on them dont regen.

otherwise BGs work fine aslong as rest of raid dont run after me everywhere (happens 1 tme of 3)

IMO BGs are a waste of time, unless of course you have time to kill. The 175 arena points(per week) are not worth doing even the daily everyday. Honor can be gained by other means with usually other bonuses attached, stone shards while farming heroics, WG etc. With the change to honor coming it will be easier for people to gain the honor needed and then they will be done with the honor farming. So I would imagine queues will be even longer a few weeks after the patch.

The most I will run nowadays is boxing 2 chars if I feel like BGs and well I dont ever feel like it anymore. The time it takes to sit in the queue now is just the suck. I think maybe along with the long queues is just some BGs are fricken old and not very interesting anymore or vehicle based which is also part of the suck. Heroics and Arenas are still fun though. ymmv

The new pvp island coming in cata does looking promising however.

In Cataclysm, BG's might be the way to go.
They'll be rated, and will give the same points you get in Arena.

It depends on how they populate the battlegrounds; if it attempts to match you against opponents close to your rating, then it really depends on how many players are queuing at once. If it just takes the first 25 players queued from each side, as a geared team you'll play against much more poorly geared opponents most of the time.

In arena, certain teams seem to do well. While other teams not so well. Take a mixed team, with five different classes; you can be a powerhouse in a battleground, but I've yet to see a boxer post 1800+ with a 5-class team. It looks like in Cataclysm, we will be able to queue for every BG as a 5-man, but not as a raid. Still addons or simultaneous queuing might get around that.

yeah I kinda agree with fat tire. although I run av sometimes it's kind of a waste, compared to what I can get in heroics. But I'm so sick of heroics :(

Thinking about it a bit more I have to come to the conclusion that honor is an outdated mechanic. Its a philosophy that is flawed based on a carrot that reappears every few months that is tedious to even the newest player to grind out.

But....

Don't you want "of the Alliance/Horde", on your new team?
100k honor kills?

Not sure if that, or "the Insane" is a worse grind.

WOW people really hate the BGs.
personally i prefer any BG except the 40 man ones.
Well i guess its different from person to person but i enjoy BGs aslong as the rest of the raid dont follow me like a useless slave i cant control.
I used to hate WSG because i thought it was a multiboxer unfriendly BG but heck! nowdays i love it.
Besides... farming honor via heroics/WG thats just killing braincells imo, i did my fair share of HCs and i still do... cleared every HC except HoR with 4 shammys and a separate tank.
Its just that it gets so freaking monotome (if spelled right) and plainly booring.
Well i can understand that people stop doing BGs since theyre honor capped or think its plainly booring... i still do BGs and when i reach the cap i buy and sell gems.

Im not sure anymore if i want rated BGs tho! it might fuck things up =/

thanks heyaz for your post,
i thought that only on my realmpool most teammates gone completely clueless.
i have 100% the same problems as you.

well, i learned to controll AV and IOC with my box-team but you have simple
no chance in AB, WSG and SOTA if your teammates are flops.

On my shamans I always have trouble in all BGs but AV.

But on my Dk+rets I own pretty much every BG except SOTA which I only play when it's the daily and it usually takes me 1-2 tries to win it but I don't know if that the norm or I just got lucky.

The reason I do better with DK+rets than with shamans is because my DK is almost unkillable, it requires an entire pug or another premade of 5 + some extra pugs. On the shamans, even 3-4 melees can keep me rooted in place a long time, especially if they are rogues, and being stuck in one place means you can't support your team to do objectives.

But on dk+rets, even if I get attacked by several I can still keep dragging them with me towards an objective (e.g. flag carrier, base flag, etc.) and keep killing on the way, with shamans you can't do that.

In AB I gave up on zerging, and I gave up on stables and mine because they put me too far away from everything else. For the most part I go back and forth between blacksmith and farm, hoping for a 3 cap. If I leave those nodes the other 10 won't manage to keep or assault anything the entire game.

EOTS.. I used to carry this easily, never works anymore. Alliance <3 flags and they'll grab it every 30 seconds. Horde won't have any nodes except the ones I take.

SOTA.. horde doesn't win this one period, not even without boxers.We have no one in cannons and they don't make tanks so no matter what I do it's futile. If it's the daily I skip it. The last two times I had the quest I did 7 games before giving up.

I am doing well in AV now on the dk+rets because I can solo wipe galv and often drek. The shaman can't do this even with a healer, unless they only sent 7 or 8 people. I can also bust turtles pretty easily by charging in and just going to town. I mount up and run in, giving me several seconds to gib people before they start attacknig me instead of the 10-20 ranged they were focused on before.

WSG I don't bother with, just pisses people off and for a good reason.

I don't think the horde are necessarily worse pvpers, I think it's a difference in class makeup and also mentality. I see plenty of games where alliance are 50% retarded backpeddling hunters who didn't train disengage or deterrence. What I see though is that half of alliance are stealthers - tons and tons of druids and rogues. And unlike horde they favor objectives over killing. They'll camp nodes for ages, they'll walk around 10v10 battles to ninja cap a flag. I haven't seen horde stealthers in pugs do this since vanilla - they'd rather be in the fight. Alliance will hop in every cannon and vehicle they can, whereas you're lucky to see a single cannon occupied in a horde sota defense, at least on my bg.

In AB take and guard BS use path of frost to run to stables with ease watch farm and i dont go anywhere near LM cause i always get tossed off the fucking edge. So with that i can guard all 3 BS,farm and stables pretty easy