4/5 PvP Rogue question/info thread

I admit it, I jumped on the rogue wagon :-D Currently levelling my rogues, which are now lvl 61 and having some fun i outlands.

However, I'm pretty clueless when it comes to rogues, which is one of the only classes I've never played. Also, rogues are sort of different in terms of both multiboxing and character mechanics, so I thought I'd start up this thread with a bunch of questions to those who know more about rogues than I do:

1) What abilities and spec do you use while levelling?

I'm currently just doing mutilate spam which works well to kill one target, but I'm thinking there must be a better way?

2) How do you handle ambush/backstab type abilities with your slaves?

I'm torn between cheap shotting with my main and ambushing with my slaves (im assasination specced currently), but positioning is tricky, especially with players/mobs moving around and even when it works, I find that it's not a lot more effective than just spamming mutilate.

3) How do you gear up at level 80?

I've bought 8 brewfest mugs, some death cards etc., but since I can't run heroics with this group, I'm not sure how to gear up beyond the BoE point. Is AV + WG + 10 weekly losses in arena the way to go? I guess a round robin rotation on heroics and gear with tank + healer + 3 rogues is a option too (should be fairly fast once the new dungeon system gets working properly).

4) What's the stat priority and hit caps for rogues in PvP? What do we gem for in PvP?

DPS -> +hit -> +agi -> +ap? How high is res prioritized?

5) How do you handle poisons? One of each or priority on instant poisons?

6) Being a stealth class probably mixes things up in BG's
6.1) - what objectives do you go for as a rogue team in AV? Cap bunkers?
6.2) - what tactics do you use in WSG?
6.3) - any special notes in AB?

7) What class specific add-ons do you use?

Stunwatch? Rogue powerbars?

8) What professions do you use?

Engineering seems to be good for PvP in general, but some of the intangibles of engineering are mitigated by other rogue abilites. I.e. sprint and nitro boost, parachute and safe fall. Though not the same, they share type of effects and it seems that the tangible effects of engineering doesn't justify it over the more "traditional" professions. I'm thinking alchemy + jewelcrafting for stats and money (cooldowns), but curious about the experiences of others?

Just found nifty link:

http://shadowpanther.net/

I have a variety of specs on my guys, mostly just variations in cold blood shadow step (so one has improved kidney shot, one hemo, etc). I am pretty conservative and I lead heavily with one character for an opener and a single rotation and then I usually crunch with four finishing moves as openers.

I rotate screens and just let the previous main regen if needed while stalking the next mob.

In pvp I 'throw' a slave at a character with shadow step and have him do a stun lock rotation while the main and other slaves catchup in stealth. If I botch I can always have the everyone jump the guy.

Sadly all that fancy running around is a big time soak and I can all attack keyboard cast just as well.

I am mostly trying to get the sense of how this works in pvp really and trying to get back into stealth as soon as possible and deal with multiple characters.

One thing about this crew is that beating up on a faction city is pretty fun. Run around, destroy a few people, logout, do some dailies, log back in destroy the auctioneers, etc.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HPAVC

I have a variety of specs on my guys, mostly just variations in cold blood shadow step (so one has improved kidney shot, one hemo, etc). I am pretty conservative and I lead heavily with one character for an opener and a single rotation and then I usually crunch with four finishing moves as openers.

I rotate screens and just let the previous main regen if needed while stalking the next mob.

In pvp I 'throw' a slave at a character with shadow step and have him do a stun lock rotation while the main and other slaves catchup in stealth. If I botch I can always have the everyone jump the guy.

Sadly all that fancy running around is a big time soak and I can all attack keyboard cast just as well.

I am mostly trying to get the sense of how this works in pvp really and trying to get back into stealth as soon as possible and deal with multiple characters.

One thing about this crew is that beating up on a faction city is pretty fun. Run around, destroy a few people, logout, do some dailies, log back in destroy the auctioneers, etc.

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Good info, thanks. As for the "throwing" of a slave, do you do the stunlock manually or do you have a castsequence of sorts?

I assume there's a reason that you choose the shadowstep spec, did you try out several specs and found this to be more effective? :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fuzzyboy

4) What's the stat priority and hit caps for rogues in PvP? What do we gem for in PvP?

DPS -> +hit -> +agi -> +ap? How high is res prioritized?

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Answer to own question from shadowpanther.net:

Quote:

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PVP AEP
1 Agility = 1 AEP
1 Strength = .65 AEP
1 Stamina = .60 AEP
1 Hit Rating = .60 AEP
1 Crit Rating = .64 AEP
1 Attack Power = .65 AEP
1 Expertise Rating = .70 AEP
1 Haste Rating = .60 AEP
1 Armor Penetration Rating = .65 AEP
1 Resilience = 1 AEP
1 Blue Socket = 26 AEP (with no socket bonus)
1 Red Socket = 26 AEP (plus socket bonus)
1 Yellow Socket = 23 AEP (plus socket bonus)
1 Meta Socket = 80 AEP
.1 Sword/Mace/Fist MH Speed = +20 AEP per .1 slower than 2.5
.1 Dagger (Slow MH/OH) Speed = -9 AEP per .1 faster than 1.8
.1 Fast OH Speed = -8 AEP per per .1 slower than 1.5
1 Sword/Mace/Fist MH DPS = 0.5 AEP
1 Sword/Mace/Fist MH Average Damage = 1 AEP
1 Dagger (Slow MH/OH) MH Average Damage = 1 AEP
1 Fast OH DPS = 1.4 AEP

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Link to PvP gem priority:

http://shadowpanther.net/gems-pvp.htm

Basically:
- Meta: [item=41398]Relentless Earthsiege Diamond[/item]
- Red: [item=40114]Bright Cardinal Ruby[/item]
- Yellow: [item=40158]Empowered Ametrine[/item]
- Blue: [item=49110]Nightmare Tear[/item] / [item=40136]Balanced Dreadstone[/item]

1.
Take your pick, level as Mutilate with daggers, or Combat with whatever weapon happens to be the highest dps, out of all the weapons you have.

Mutilate spec, will be Mutilate as your DPS move.
Combat spec, you'll spam Sinister Strike.

2.
Don't bother with Ambush/Backstab.
Easier to just Cheap Shot x1, Mutilate with everyone else.
Then you don't worry about facing.

3 & 4.
For PvE, you want 8.50% hit, 26 Expertise (not sure the ratings).
I believe you only need 4% for PvP, not sure on the Expertise there either.
Armor Penetration is a good stat.
A lot of rogues gear PvE for PvP, and in battlegrounds this is probably decent for killing.
The stamina/resilience gear, will be better once you have a bunch of it.

5.
With a Mutilate/Preparation spec (50/0/21), you'll apply Crippling Poison for free, by using Instant, Wound or Mind Numbing.
I would go Wound/Mind Numbing on one or two, and Wound/Deadly on the rest.

6.
In AV, as a solo rogue, I use stealth to sneak into the last base, and cap the towers.
In WSG, you have Sprint x2 and the Speed Boots, plus stealth to get into position; Blind, Cloak, Dismantle, Evasion etc.
In AB or EotS you can "Distract", to frequently send people off of cliffs to their deaths.
Any time you decide to cause chaos in the middle, you will.

7.
I use Cooldown Count and Dot Timer for cooldowns/timers.
Deadly Boss Mods, is good for battleground related timers.
Have not really gone with a bunch of rogue specific addons.

8.
My rogue is primarily PvE focused; I've gone with Inscription + Jewelcrafting.
Inscription was a largest profession boost over not having that profession, for a rogue. Plus did not need to level Hodir on this toon.
Jewelcrafting both as a decent money maker and for the Dragon Eye gems.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ualaa

2.
Don't bother with Ambush/Backstab.
Easier to just Cheap Shot x1, Mutilate with everyone else.
Then you don't worry about facing.

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I agree with everything but this. Ambush is HUGE frickin damage when you multiply x3.. and with a crit rate over 90% in pvp gear... you'd be a fool not to 1 shot those clothies! (its hilarious)

In PVP you'll be using IWT spam. My cheap shot/ambush button is the same as my mutilate (out of stealth), button "3". Put cheap shot / 3xAmbushon your stealth bar. IWT is essentially a right click (initiate autoattack)... so if your rogue gets to melee range before you tell him to do anything... he'll start autoattacking breaking stealth anyway.... IWT + ambush spam will never prevent you from breaking stealth if in front of your target. It works flawlessly.

I actually glyph ambush on my 3 followers because it adds +5 yards to their range, meaning that in their rear position the ability is much more usable.

Enjoy!!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by asonimie

I agree with everything but this. Ambush is HUGE frickin damage when you multiply x3.. and with a crit rate over 90% in pvp gear... you'd be a fool not to 1 shot those clothies! (its hilarious)

In PVP you'll be using IWT spam. My cheap shot/ambush button is the same as my mutilate (out of stealth), button "3". Put cheap shot / 3xAmbushon your stealth bar. IWT is essentially a right click (initiate autoattack)... so if your rogue gets to melee range before you tell him to do anything... he'll start autoattacking breaking stealth anyway.... IWT + ambush spam will never prevent you from breaking stealth if in front of your target. It works flawlessly.

I actually glyph ambush on my 3 followers because it adds +5 yards to their range, meaning that in their rear position the ability is much more usable.

Enjoy!!

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Didn't even think of using the glyph =P

What other glyphs? Eviscerate + what?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HPAVC

I have a variety of specs on my guys, mostly just variations in cold blood shadow step (so one has improved kidney shot, one hemo, etc). I am pretty conservative and I lead heavily with one character for an opener and a single rotation and then I usually crunch with four finishing moves as openers.

I rotate screens and just let the previous main regen if needed while stalking the next mob.

In pvp I 'throw' a slave at a character with shadow step and have him do a stun lock rotation while the main and other slaves catchup in stealth. If I botch I can always have the everyone jump the guy.

Sadly all that fancy running around is a big time soak and I can all attack keyboard cast just as well.

I am mostly trying to get the sense of how this works in pvp really and trying to get back into stealth as soon as possible and deal with multiple characters.

One thing about this crew is that beating up on a faction city is pretty fun. Run around, destroy a few people, logout, do some dailies, log back in destroy the auctioneers, etc.

---

Thanks much - especially for the talent info. A couple of questions though (if you don't mind). You've taken dirty deeds over improved ambush? I see the reason behind this for a single rogue, but multiple rogues have the option to cheap shot (with main) and ambush (with rest), making this a really nice talent. Is the damage increase below 35% really that good?

Also, I see AE attacks being one of the greater threats to the group, perhaps enveloping shadows would be a good pick?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by asonimie

I agree with everything but this. Ambush is HUGE frickin damage when you multiply x3.. and with a crit rate over 90% in pvp gear... you'd be a fool not to 1 shot those clothies! (its hilarious)

In PVP you'll be using IWT spam. My cheap shot/ambush button is the same as my mutilate (out of stealth), button "3". Put cheap shot / 3xAmbushon your stealth bar. IWT is essentially a right click (initiate autoattack)... so if your rogue gets to melee range before you tell him to do anything... he'll start autoattacking breaking stealth anyway.... IWT + ambush spam will never prevent you from breaking stealth if in front of your target. It works flawlessly.

I actually glyph ambush on my 3 followers because it adds +5 yards to their range, meaning that in their rear position the ability is much more usable.

Enjoy!!

---

Yeah, I've had a lot of fun with ambush too :P Only problem is, the only good weapons available when I hit 80 are the tankards, which for obvious reasons can't be used for ambush. I suppose you're more or less forced to go combat if you use tankards, so the question remains if combat is useful enough to last until 1800 or if it's preferrable getting ilvl200 weapons and go subtlety or assasination?

The only non-raid dagger I can think of which would be decent is the rondel from ToC hc, which is not exactly viable with a starting team of rogues :P

I remember reading about your plan to gimmick your way to 1800-weapons, which sounds like a good plan if it's doable - looking forward to hearing more about that!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fuzzyboy

Yeah, I've had a lot of fun with ambush too :P Only problem is, the only good weapons available when I hit 80 are the tankards, which for obvious reasons can't be used for ambush. I suppose you're more or less forced to go combat if you use tankards, so the question remains if combat is useful enough to last until 1800 or if it's preferrable getting ilvl200 weapons and go subtlety or assasination?

The only non-raid dagger I can think of which would be decent is the rondel from ToC hc, which is not exactly viable with a starting team of rogues :P

I remember reading about your plan to gimmick your way to 1800-weapons, which sounds like a good plan if it's doable - looking forward to hearing more about that!

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After much toiling, I have realized that boxin rogues as combat is the most annoying and painful thing ever. I absolutely hate it. The only time it's fun is when you have a single target to unload KS on.. the spell is useless otherwise and the rest of the spec sucks too. Movement speed is slow, its not very bursty, and sound effects suck too :P Basically it offers KS, FOK, and Sinister strike spam... all of which are very lackluster in pvp. Combat, FAIL.

Mutilate spec is pro for boxing (I'm testing out a sub hemo spec too, more on that later). Everything about it enhances my ability to play.
More poisons
Enhanced run speed
Enhanced stealthed speed
More burst
2x defensive cooldowns,
+20% healing taken
Faster weapon hits and therefore faster burst procs
Higher crit %
Mutilate spam SFX are hilarious
Ambush (altho won't always go off, still makes a difference)
Seal Fate = instant 4-5 combo points = eviscerate is actually useful in our short little fights (and cold blood + evisc = guaranteed 5-8k after 1 hit on a target)

I farmed the iLvl 219 dagger from regular Forge of Souls (heartshiver i think it's called) on my guys. 1.8 speed with good stats = pro for mutilate.

The net perception is about a 200% increase in dmg over my combat spec last week. It's really great.

That's a great tip (farming FoS), I never thought of that. Do you do it with a tank + healer + 3 rogues team or with tank + shammies + 1 rogue?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fuzzyboy

That's a great tip (farming FoS), I never thought of that. Do you do it with a tank + healer + 3 rogues team or with tank + shammies + 1 rogue?

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My RL bud has 2 tanks, so we made 2 teams. Each team has tank +2rogue +2shaman. One shaman as resto on each. With his great tank gear and my shamans great pvp gear healing, its a breeze.

Only bad thing about it, getting the daggers took me like 20-22 runs, and since regular FOS only gives 2 badges... it really took away from my badge farming potential over the weekend.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by asonimie

My RL bud has 2 tanks, so we made 2 teams. Each team has tank +2rogue +2shaman. One shaman as resto on each. With his great tank gear and my shamans great pvp gear healing, its a breeze.

Only bad thing about it, getting the daggers took me like 20-22 runs, and since regular FOS only gives 2 badges... it really took away from my badge farming potential over the weekend.

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I was thinking about doing a paladin + priest + 3 rogues and round-robin the rogues while using the random dungeon tool. Not sure how well I'd do in FoS normal with 3 not very well geared rogues though, so I might have to do just paladin + 3 shaman + rogue, since my shaman have pretty decent gear.

For the "ignore" ambush, was referring more to the leveling up process.
You'll one shot just about every mob, anyway.
And it is faster to just run up and smack them, then to position everyone behind.

For PvP, you'll want maximum possible damage on the opener.
Which makes the ambush set up worth waiting for.
And then Mutilate thereafter, does not require facing.
But with the spam IWT, some toons will be behind constantly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fuzzyboy

I was thinking about doing a paladin + priest + 3 rogues and round-robin the rogues while using the random dungeon tool. Not sure how well I'd do in FoS normal with 3 not very well geared rogues though, so I might have to do just paladin + 3 shaman + rogue, since my shaman have pretty decent gear.

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For all the older heroics, basically exclude the 3.3 ones and ToC, I'd imagine a Pally/Priest would be able to run the 3x rogues through everything else with ease.

So basically pick an instance hub, which they can do.
Then queue for random from there.

And if you get one you are doubtful about, just have them do one that you can do.
And 15 minutes later, requeue and hope its a random your team can handle.

I don't want to sound like a negative Nancy Asonimie, but I haven't seen one video out of you since your Rogues hit 80 :)

What do you want to see. I'm not pursuing arena strongly atm, 10 games for the minimum basically. I'm working on just gearing them up so I can take a serious shot next week or so. Not a lot of half-geared teams on our BG - all full furious and up.... so there's no chance of competing until I'm geared. I have about 3-4 epics per toon atm (didnt play much this last week)... and the rest are 78 blues. To give you an idea of their power tho... I won my first game last night in 5s. The enemy team was full deadly equiv... quite a gear difference. I was quite pleased when their 25k hp pools vanished faster than I did :)

BGs are a blast tho.

I just did a AV with my lvl60 rogues, 5 of them. They are wearing heribloom daggers and besides that only a chest, pants and head. Rest of the gear slots are still empty.
I still managed to take a LOT of people down. There was no skill involved really, just using defensive skills and hit my Iwinbutton mutilate mostly. Still have to work on blinds and so.

I find it pretty hard to make decend specs for my team. Most talents involve combo point improvement and I don`t think that we really need them anyway. We might just kill to fast for them. Could you link your armory, I would like to check out your rogues.

Besides that, wouldn`t a shadowstep spec be nice as well?

I am interested in knowing what to do when being attacked by the players who you are not targeting (stunning). Killing 1-2 people in bg, then lose 1 of my own is not fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by remanz

I am interested in knowing what to do when being attacked by the players who you are not targeting (stunning). Killing 1-2 people in bg, then lose 1 of my own is not fun.

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Oh in BGs without a healer... pretty much everything I do is a suicide mission. The trick is to make yourself the most useful.

Flag nodes: Uncap them when people are distracted... then restealth.
IsleOfConquest: this one is great. The enemy team always seems to get docks, which is clutch to winning. So I just let them have it.. and 90 seconds later when the glaive throwers are halfway to our base.... BOOM dead, vanish. Gratz on your useless docks :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by David

I just did a AV with my lvl60 rogues, 5 of them. They are wearing heribloom daggers and besides that only a chest, pants and head. Rest of the gear slots are still empty.
I still managed to take a LOT of people down. There was no skill involved really, just using defensive skills and hit my Iwinbutton mutilate mostly. Still have to work on blinds and so.

I find it pretty hard to make decend specs for my team. Most talents involve combo point improvement and I don`t think that we really need them anyway. We might just kill to fast for them. Could you link your armory, I would like to check out your rogues.

Besides that, wouldn`t a shadowstep spec be nice as well?

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I've been giving shadowstep spec some thought too. Seems like that would alleviate some of the difficulties of getting in position once we're out of stealth. The "swirling melee" thing could possibly be used for backstab-spam also, although I admit I havent actually tried that, but I will. Still levelling and rogues are almost 72 now :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fuzzyboy

I've been giving shadowstep spec some thought too. Seems like that would alleviate some of the difficulties of getting in position once we're out of stealth. The "swirling melee" thing could possibly be used for backstab-spam also, although I admit I havent actually tried that, but I will. Still levelling and rogues are almost 72 now :)

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mutilate doesn't require you to be behind. Backstab isn't used anymore really.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by asonimie

mutilate doesn't require you to be behind. Backstab isn't used anymore really.

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True, but I was talking about a shadowstep spec, where I guess you wouldn't have mutilate?

Would be fun maybe to use shadowstep in arena by targetting different players and appair behind different players. Damage them all, activate sprint and start focussing your dps.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by remanz

I am interested in knowing what to do when being attacked by the players who you are not targeting (stunning). Killing 1-2 people in bg, then lose 1 of my own is not fun.

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I think the question here is, one of your guys is 1000 yards away on the other side of AV. What do you do then? As the question about getting jump while jumping someone else is sort of a 'more details' response.

All trinket back to HQ is an option in AV, autofollowing someone poor slob for a free ride or partial ride might work. Stealth / mount up and mouse click to move, meet you guy half way if you can. In WSG/AB/WG mount up -> mouse click move, get some place and have that slave stealth move and meet the slave there works pretty well. In AV it really depends on where the GY is and whats going on. You can setup ambush for a while with the main group (mouse click move them around in stealth) and haul ass with the slave mounted up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fuzzyboy

True, but I was talking about a shadowstep spec, where I guess you wouldn't have mutilate?

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I'm no expert on subtlety specs, but I think Hemo spec is somewhat strong(don't have the spec details, just heard from another PVPer). I was just assuming any deep Sub spec was probably hemo spec, in which case you spam hemo.

EditL did some digging and yes there is a ShS spec that uses a few backstabs in the rotation.

The thing I'm noticing so far with my rogues... is that the more complicated and gimmicky / cooldown related my dmg is, the less is actually works. Combat was more cooldown / dmg gimmick based and it was horrible. I'll give Hemo an honest try but I imagine it will be a lot like combat.

This is a good thread. I have learned some about my solo rogue (he's 63 atm) and I'm thinking of doing 3 rogues or 1 druid 2 rogues with my remaining RAF.