I'm curious what ISBoxer/Inner Space can do that HKN & Keyclone can't. I don't doubt there is something, but I'm genuinely curious. So far I've found HKN has been able to do everything, and more, than the other programs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Svpernova09
I've never used HKN, so I only know what I've seen discussed here but the big perks of IS/ISBoxerQuote:
Originally Posted by Owltoid
Instant pip swapping.
Simple keymapping via a GUI tool (ISBoxer).
Virtualize configuration files that allows you to run ONE WoW install and retain settings for each instance (toon).
Native support for G keyboards (and lights to indicate status)
Easy Mouse broadcasting / Stupid easy casting of AoE target spells (Blizzard, Hurricane, Death and Decay, etc)
40 second wizard to get up and running with FTL.
Easily flexible window layouts.
Clickboxer http://www.lavishsoft.com/wiki/index.php/ClickBoxer
PiP Swap speed demo scroll to 2:06
Ah, I see what happened to my post now :)
HKN is like a programming language, it's a very powerful tool and once learned a very easy one to manage... but it's a scripting tool none the less. With HKN you can accomplish anything you can imagine for boxing, I haven't heard of anyone saying you can't do something with HKN.
I've never setup PIP with HKN, but I have done mouse broadcasting. Mouse broadcasts with HKN were reasonably useful, but I found that they wouldn't always work - at times I would see dropped clicks, missed actions, etc. Overall I'd give it a 90% accuracy on the mouse broadcast which was amazing compared to the other tools I'd used before Innerspace.
Keyclone is of course out of the box, easy to configure, and easy to setup. I found the PIP speed to be disappointing but didn't know any better way. Mouse broadcasting was useful for NPC dialogs, anything that had 3-5 seconds to deal with it... it wasn't viable for combat and wasn't viable for doing things fast. If I was patient it worked, but overall left me wanting.
Innerspace has the fastest PIP swaps I've seen to date, I haven't heard anyone ever challenge that either, the .5ms swaps just can't be beat. With mouse broadcasting being 100% accurate and 100% instant as well. No waiting for the mouse to broadcast around, no waiting for anything.
Setting up Innerspace used to be challenging, now it's really a lot easier than KeyClone.
I've been meaning to test and document this by setting up a "virgin" wow account, no addon's, no macro's, nothing. I believe I could drop Jamba into a virgin wow folders addons directory, run the wizard in InnerSpace and setup a 5 box team and be playing in under 1 minute.
No macro's to be setup by hand.
FTL Configured.
PIP Configured.
Follow Configured.
A battle ready 5 box in 1 minute from installing 3 pieces of software besides WoW.... (Jamba, Innerspace, and ISBoxer.)
Sounds interesting! I'm wary to give up the scripting power of HKN as there's just so much possibility, especially with virtual buttons. As far as PiP, I may be reaching the 0.5 second swap (I use one large on left with four slaves lined vertically on right) on my new computer, but on the old one it would be a couple second swap. I wonder what is making IS so much faster (not like I know anything about any of this stuff).
I'm glad that the multiboxing community has a few very solid choices!
Yeah, convinced me to give it a try. I don't really need to go to work today do I? :)
I'm no expert on the exact PiP mechanics but I think the general concept is that most PiP solutions do their thing by telling each of the WoW clients to change their size and position and then letting them each handle it on their own. But IS lets all the WoW clients run and render like they are each full screen all the time and takes care of doing the window scaling and position as needed and it's very good at it, since it's not also busy trying to be a monster game engine at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Owltoid
Windows could be used to write a botting program, if you so desired, so I hardly think that's a valid argument. Innerspace, is just a scripting platform (think making games in Excels VBscript) it's up to you to decide which scripts you use with it.
ISBoxer was designed to stay in the legal realm with WoW and several other games for that matter.
The PiP is incredibly fast because it it renders the the alts as though they are full screen all the time, it's a constant hit to the RAM and processor, whereas most software gives you more to the main and does PiP resizing requirements on demand. If you have a slow computer with 5 WoWs running on it, all of them will be equally slow. With similar hardware setups and plenty of free memory HKN can accomplish PiP swaps very quickly as well. I believe keyclone takes it's time during swapping because it is dedicating your resources to the main, and the alts are run at a bare minimum. This gives you the benefit of requiring a bit less in the resources department, at the cost of switching speed.
ISBoxer/Innerspace has a really nifty feature that the others don't and that is cursor broacasting. I don't mean click broadcast but it actually shows the mouse cursor on each screen. It also has an amazingly fast out of the box setup time. With HKN you can copy and paste a script, write some macros and be good to go in about an hour, but with ISBoxer you can have it handle the macro generation natively. The one flaw I see in that process is if blizz changes something with macros in a future patch (think1.11) you may have to wait a while before ISBoxer is updated and usuable again.
Regarding PiP swapping, can you say if it's as fast in laggy or graphic intensive areas such as Dalaran?
With my HKN setup, PiP swapping is very fast (like that video) pretty much anywhere non-wotlk, but come to wotlk zones it takes a few seconds, and in dalaran can take up to 10-15 seconds.
This!Quote:
ISBoxer/Innerspace has a really nifty feature that the others don't and that is cursor broacasting. I don't mean click broadcast but it actually shows the mouse cursor on each screen.
I got into a bad habit recently of constantly changing my UI...to the point I couldn't remember the keybindings so devolved into a "click caster". I'm slowly retraining myself, but this allows for my lapses into clicking on stuff.
It does take a wee bit longer to get setup than keyclone did, but from my limited experience so far it is very powerful. That being said....keyclone is still great. In fact the only reason I decided to try innerspace/ISboxer was because I wanted something that would allow my both warlocks to cast rain of fire at same time onto the same location.
ISBoxer's PiP swapping speed does not change during gameplay. It's always going to be instant, even in Dalaran.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pocalypse
Thanks for the clarification Lax.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lax
I'm not trying to ask questions to show doubt just wanting a bit more understanding. I've used all three on a fairly good comp setup, and Innerspace was the fastest, my question is, if my comp normally lags a bit in Dalaran will the PiP still be instant...or will it lag a little as well? HKN switches really quick for me just about everywhere, but if the comp were lagging a little displaying screens the switch would have what seemed to be a proportional amount of lag. I didn't use Innerspace long enough to test this, but was wondering what would happen.
---EDIT: feel free not to answer that I somehow missed an entire page of posts that answered my question...wooo late night posting
I am a current user of keyclone and everything appears to work correctly with it. I have 2 computer that I run it on but was wondering if anyone had an opinion on switching to Isboxer/Inner. I dont like the PiP swapping in keyclone as i find it doesnt swap the windows and resize them correctly. Could be a setup issue...
Looking for anyone experience of switching from keyclone to IS/Inner. Is it worth the ongoing money?
God Fur, let it go.
For a valued member of the community you come off like a snotty brat all too often.
You're feelings on IS are well documented.
Yet, here's the reality:
- Botting ability is available in HKN, IS, and (I believe) GCP. There may be more. There are a ton of ways for a user to violate the ToS. The user violates the ToS, not IS (et al).
- We have NO known ToS issues for legit users of any of these programs by users in this community to multi box.
- Not all of us can (or care) to hardware box which is, I believe, your personal preference.
So, unless you have something useful to say on the topic of IS (or any other solution that has PROVEN to be useful to this community) do us a favor and keep quiet.
Boxinggeeks,
I've used IS now for the better part of 9 months. The PiP speed literally changed the way I play for the better. I could not go back easily to a lag-based PiP solution.
That said, Keyclone's PiP worked fine for me in terms of resizing, so I'd guess you have some type of configuration problem. Rob's great so if you can't find an answer... ask him. :)
Quote for truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greythan
The G15 keyboard on Fur's very own desk is able to easily used to violate the TOS.... yet somehow it doesn't.
GCP is specifically designed to prevent botting. If anyone finds a way, then let me know and we'll take it out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Greythan
Okay, I'm a faithful user of HKN, but I do wonder if ISBoxer and Innerspace really isnt the superior solution? I havnt tried ISBoxer, and only used Innerspace for EQ and diablo2, so I have no experience with it in WoW. So maybe if someone could enlighten me...
My problem with HKN is that if I spam a key too much, it will get caught in lag and has to catch up befor I can issue new commands, I'm wondering if it's the same deal with IS? Likewise if I issue too many commands too fast, it will simply not send em to the correct screen but instead send em to my focus screen, which is annoying and slows down my game play by alot.
About the PiP, it all sounds pretty great with IS I have to admit, that alone is almost enough to make me switch.
No, IS does not have that issue. You should be able to spam buttons all day long, and it would be pretty difficult to have your keys be misinterpreted and sent to the wrong window.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggy
Thanks Lax, now if you'd allow me a trial so I can compare the two would be great =P
I believe there is a trial on the Lax's page. I have been toying with the idea of ISBoxer for a while, and have browsed his page a few times.
My only issue with Keyclone (my current, and to date only broadcasting software) is that if I move my mouse from my main window to a slaves window (say the toons pathing has it stuck on something, and I want to manually move it to the quest npc, which I have "interacted" with), very rarely but often enough to be annoying, the window rotates a little (as if I had held my left button and moved the mouse quickly) and the pointer is then returned to the main window.
Once this happens, the only cure is to PiP swap to that window, and then left and right click (either order) in the new master window. Until then, moving the mouse into that window, just rotates the view a bit and expels the mouse again to the master's window.
Some sessions this occurs 4-5 times (but my sessions can be 12 hours on a weekend). Other times, I'll play a week or more without seeing this.
ISBoxer is tempting...
I like the PiP swap speed.
I like the automatic FTL set up.
I like the benefits of SymLink's (different graphic settings) with a single wow install.
Mouse broadcasting, is extremely attractive.
Zanthor's posts are a very good advertisement.
I'd highly recommend ISboxer as well ... i switched to it recently after 8 months of HKN ues (loved it) - primarily because of the window swapping speed (has proved extremely useful in questing and pvp), and more importantly for me, the "true" mouse broadcasting that shows the ground target on all windows when I cast blizzard on all 5 mages. The ground-target circle moves on all 5 windows as I move my mouse on the main, so i know exactly where it's going to be cast - perfect for casting at range - HKN and keyclone (i have both) could not do that. The other ISBoxer features (wizard, clickboxer, mouse-repeat regions) are gravy for me.
Add my vote to ISBoxer as well. Great program and getting better every update. The mouse broadcasting is just sex, so damn amazing. I dont macro a lot of extraneous stuff because I know I can mouse broadcast and select whatever I need (obviously noncombat stuff).
I have axquestion for ya lax.
How does this compare to hkn as far as performance is concerned?
The first page mentioned a difference in the rendering, full screen vs resized.
I'm gaming on a single computer system. And a laptop at that.
What I'm wondering is will the difference in rendering affect performance?
If so, in what way?
Thanks
I believe, and Lax please correct me if I'm wrong, that using Innerspace removes the BURST of burden from resizing the windows. It keeps them rendering at the same size at all times and just scales what is rendered.Quote:
Originally Posted by vikemosabe
What this means is that when you aren't switching it may take slightly more juice (it was completely not noticable on my system, but I run a beast), while when you switch it doesn't take any more at all.
The end result is more consistent and reliable gameplay.
Right, it will be rendering the same resolution as the main window. If you would rather not have this slight performance hit (it depends on the hardware vs the number of game windows) you can instead disable window switching. To see the difference in performance for your particular configuration, you would really just have to try it out -- and of course there is a free 7 day trial.
Either way, general performance-wise you are best served by having video options in WoW set to minimal, and the camera angle in the game pointing straight down at the ground on your background windows. The camera angle thing also makes it much more convenient to do targeted AoEs. I should do more videos ;)
About the PiP in IS, I'm guessing multi GPUs isnt supported?
Toyed around with it a bit yesterday, and if I set wow to run on multi GPU with my 295 it would run fine, but as soon as I'd swap to a different instance of wow the screen would remain blurry as if it didnt really resize it, but just stretch it. So I'm still forced to run it on a single GPU, but not a big deal.
I'm looking forward to toying around with it some more though.
I'd have to see your Window Layout (right click it and select Copy to Clipboard, then paste wherever) to make an educated guess about what's happening.. but.. the "stretch" is usually happening when the window goes smaller, not when it goes larger, which is what it sounds like is happening for you?Quote:
About the PiP in IS, I'm guessing multi GPUs isnt supported?
Toyed around with it a bit yesterday, and if I set wow to run on multi GPU with my 295 it would run fine, but as soon as I'd swap to a different instance of wow the screen would remain blurry as if it didnt really resize it, but just stretch it. So I'm still forced to run it on a single GPU, but not a big deal.
I'm looking forward to toying around with it some more though.
There is a bug where if you MINIMIZE a window this can happen. That's the only known issue i can think of that sounds like what you're saying, and of course the workaround is to simply not minimize the game windows
ISBoxer vouch!
I can highly recommend it, been using it for quite some time now and I am really satisfied :) The support, help and new updates makes it all way better! (and I can't wait for the new software). Personally I went with a FTL setup from the start, and it was a breeze, especially when Lax added even better FTL support! It's very customizable, which is very nice :)
As already said, PiP is really fast and the mouse broadcasting is very reliable. I do however still lack my european symbol hotkeys! ;)
I'll send you a PM with the info when I get home Lax, working now and the next 11 hours, hehe.
I got it setup to run on two screens with the four slaves on my secondary monitor, as you say it stretches when it goes small, but when i maxmize it(switch to it) it doesnt re-stretch. Main window doesnt have this problem . But like I said, I'll send you a PM about it when I get home.