So basically multiboxing in 5s is basically a joke now

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06-13-2009, 03:48 AM
Clovis

So basically multiboxing in 5s is basically a joke now

I did 6 matches tonight, each against two teams -- our 1300 rated team kept getting the same 1850+ rated teams each time and each time with the same results -- it just takes a cleave / aoe team to run in and kill me and this is with each of my guys have 22k hp and full deadly gear with a few hateful peices left over.

Everyone knows this, which is why 5s brackets are non exsistant hence the reason for getting teams rated over 500 points higher, they're the only other team queueing and its a long queue to boot. For my 3s team (currently 1650 and rising but I'm playing solo resto) the queues are less then 5 seconds.

It's incredibly irriating to see months of hard work leveling multiple shamans from 1 to 80, running countless BGs to get geared, running countless pugs for more gear, all for it to count for shit in the one area where it counts for me.

For the one or two people that are somehow getting to 2k ratings, my hats off to you and I'd know to know what you're doing because every team I face has one of two things -- a warrior charges in with reflection and then whirlwinds everyone, then the rest of the AOE starts -- or the hunter runs in with deflection popped followed again by the AOE -strategy is out the window, it's purely about who can output the most AOE damage.

5s has been such a disappoint that I'm canceling my subscription on all the clones and going back to playing just 1 -- it was fun, but ultimately it was a huge waste of time and cash because in Blizzard's attempt to make everyone happy, they've given every class the same abilities and way, way over complicated pvp. It's obvious they are utterly clueless about pvp and they only had it right before the first expansion.

-Clov
06-13-2009, 04:19 AM
Dzonatan

hmmm... are you Ele? if so then each time that warrior comes in you can just send him back with TS.
06-13-2009, 04:41 AM
Mokoi

Let me get this straight. You spent "months" getting to 80, spend a bunch of time getting your almost full deadly set and still do not understand how PvP works? and then decide to quit after "x" losses in the arena? your "area" where it counts?

You seem to have your priorities screwed up. If you suck at arenas why are they your "area" why not BGs? or raiding?

Not everyone here has the goal of being 2k rated in "arenas" a very small and unbalanced part of the game.. so why are you holding it up so high?? If you want to be good in arenas, please play them for a long time. I guarantee that hardly any teams hit 2k their first week/month of arenas. What exactly did you expect? full deadly gear in a furious arena and pwn face? If you expected to roll over every team, that is your malfunction not arenas or multiboxing.

You got the same 2 teams 3 times in a row each, did you do the SAME thing every time? did you spread your guys out? did you heal your face off during the aoe? are you taking a healer or 5 shamans? If you stood there 6x in a row and let them AOE you, then you deserve your rating.

Someone once said, the definition of crazy should be "repeating an action the same way over and over and expecting differing results"

Results take effort not imagination.
06-13-2009, 04:50 AM
Clovis

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Dzonatan',index.php?page=Thread&postID=208475#pos t208475

hmmm... are you Ele? if so then each time that warrior comes in you can just send him back with TS.

Warriors are immune to the knock back in TS during their whirlwind BS.
06-13-2009, 05:20 AM
Dzonatan

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Clovis',index.php?page=Thread&postID=208480#post2 08480

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Dzonatan',index.php?page=Thread&postID=208475#pos t208475

hmmm... are you Ele? if so then each time that warrior comes in you can just send him back with TS.

Warriors are immune to the knock back in TS during their whirlwind BS.

hmmm... Frost Shock him before he starts it then?
06-13-2009, 07:11 AM
MiRai

[quote='Dzonatan',index.php?page=Thread&postID=2084 81#post208481]hmmm... Frost Shock him before he starts it then? [/quote]Nothing can stop you when you [url='http://www.wowhead.com/?spell=63784']Bladestorm[/url] and your and I'm almost 100% positive that you instantly break out of any slowing effects when you use it.
06-13-2009, 07:25 AM
Maxion

I think it does not break slows.
But anyway, as he said the warrior has spellreflect on while running in, so a thunderstorm would get reflected (it is aoe, but they somehow still reflect it).
06-13-2009, 08:26 AM
Chranny

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Maxion',index.php?page=Thread&postID=208489#post2 08489

I think it does not break slows.
But anyway, as he said the warrior has spellreflect on while running in, so a thunderstorm would get reflected (it is aoe, but they somehow still reflect it).

It breaks snares and roots.

@OP
You rolled a whole team without knowing what 5s is like?
06-13-2009, 10:20 AM
Eloxy

To the OP

You cant just go in and to 10 games and start bbqing every team u meet period. For example, look at Sina, he did HUNDREDS of games just this season and god knows how many games before. (respect man ;))
I am atm in the same boat as you, just got the "startpackage" of gear to go into arenas. I did my first few matches a few days ago and wnded up with 8 losses and 2 winns. Not bad imo.
Not to crush your dream m8, but u gotta kinda fail a few months before starting to sniff at 1700 rating+

quadboxing shamans are not weak, its just that we gotta nuke the right peeps down and we gotta do it realy fast, dps and instagibbing is our strength, defence is not

on a sidenote, im not pro i do stupid shit and get facerolled with three enemies sometimes =P
06-13-2009, 10:31 AM
asonimie

@OP: 5s is extremely hard, I am one of the 5 boxed teams above 1800 and I admit freely its a zerg fest with cleave teams. All it takes is Warrior+Rogue, Warrior+Lock, or Warrior+Ret to make life miserable (nerf warrior hp much?). If you're rolling around in full deadly gear, then your gear is fine!! You have done all the work and spent those long hours gearing up, now it just comes down to PRACTICE PRACTICE PRACTICE... if you are this far along I suggest giving it more time, quitting now... especially with being newer to 5s... is just stupid. I have been working on boxed 5v5 since season3 of BC.... it takes TIME to get the hang of it. Quitting hastily like this will leave you bitter for a long time. Sticking it out and seeing the fruits of your practice will make you much more satisfied.

As far as strategies against the ominous warrior... Dominion, Sinaa, Myself and others have posted a lot about strats and secrets related to cleave comps over the last 30 days or so, dig up our threads and most importantly, do some thinking before you Q. Theorycraft, think through your gear. enchants, gems etc. I posted a long blurp about the importance of high spellpower and LvB/Crit modifiers etc. If you dont have the power to kill people fast, stam and resil will not win for you... and you will lose against these teams, period.

@Mokoi: "deadly gear in a furious arena"... ummm hell ya deadly gear in a furious arena. Thats how the system works every season lol. Nobody is fully decked out in Furious sets quite yet... everyone started with deadly or below... making Deadly the BEST set pieces to have starting this season. However Clovis, you should have full furious accessories (rating dependant of course) as SOON as you qualify for them.

Frustrating, hell yes. I've wanted to punch through my walls at least once a week (I'm extremely competitive).
When you finally kill that 2200 rated cleave comp thats been owning your ass for hours... and take 25 points from them. It's all worth it.

Although pvp whiners claim we have it easy and get free gladiator titles... we don't. Its tougher than ever right now (considering season 5 was impossible). I'm here for any advice and general help I can give, as are other successful arena boxers. Dont expect results overnight.

I wish you luck, its a tough road... but its doable.
06-13-2009, 11:38 AM
Eloxy

amen
06-13-2009, 11:48 AM
pinotnoir

I understand the OP comments. Real life is becoming more important to me than Wow. With that said I dont have the time to bang my head against the wall trying to beat these faceroll aoe teams. There is nothing left to do in the game because I have no time to raid. My accounts will most likely be canceled this week because I am bored with the game. I really would like to have geared up my dk's in hateful but I dont have the time. Maybe after a break things will seem fresh and exciting again.
06-13-2009, 12:25 PM
Fat Tire

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Clovis',index.php?page=Thread&postID=208480#post2 08480

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Dzonatan',index.php?page=Thread&postID=208475#pos t208475

hmmm... are you Ele? if so then each time that warrior comes in you can just send him back with TS.

Warriors are immune to the knock back in TS during their whirlwind BS.

However, it does not stop you from blowing them up. You could set focus the warrior an be rdy to blow him up. He cant switch to defensive/spell reflect while in Blade storm.

If they are using the tactic of FoK then sending in the warrior to BS. You could Ghost wolf it out a bit, they can control where they twirl but its a very short range. I know on my warlock when I see a warrior BSing I am like o shit! I port or I die, plain and simple.

Try to get an understanding about the different team comps and what they do, who they train/switch. It seems that they have a plan for you....FoK/BS. Do you have the correct plan for them?

Also, dude you played 16 games and went 6-10 I mean damn! Spend a little more time on it, you might surprise yourself. :thumbup:

Edit: I believe the old days BC days will come back in time. They are changing thing at a breakneck pace now and I see more balance coming and shaman changes.
06-13-2009, 02:27 PM
mrmcgee21

Any warrior who doesn't ride the short bus has /cancelaura bladestorm in his shield reflect macro, you can reflect out of a bladestorm very easily. Anyone with a non-fail reaction time is going to see your burst coming, weather EM is up or not because there is a .5 sec delay after you flame shock before you can get it out. The overall skill of people in pvp in general has deffinately rose a lot since BC. It's amazing how many people can make that .5 sec reaction before I hit them with EM-LvB and counter me nowadays. And if EM isn't up? forget about it, most caster's camp at a pillar and run behind it right after they get flame shocked, while melee have gotten exceedingly good at turning figure 8's around my shamans so they break my casting quiet often. The trick is, waiting until one of them makes a mistake, or just finding the weakest link on the team ( you know, the idiot mage who comes out and blizzards you, the disc priest that mass dispells 1 to many times in a row, the resto druid who thinks he can sit in tree form 15 yards away from any LoS and spam heals ... those guys ) and exploiting it.

Just a little tip as well, run some 3v3's with your shamans before you do 5's ( with no healer ) to warm up, this will make you *SO* much better, learning to play without a healer teach's y ou how to use your defensive ability's properly, how to heal quickly, and how to make sure every ounce of dps you put out counts ( because you dont have that much mana hehe ). Anyone wanting to get over 1800 should aim to have a 1500+ 3v3' team solo before you give your healers a headache and waste their time getting mopped up by any team with a brain.
06-13-2009, 02:41 PM
Fat Tire

Sound advice mrmcgee21

Thank you sir
06-13-2009, 02:42 PM
Clovis

Thanks for the words of encouragement. My current 5s team is my second one -- the first night we went 6 wins for 5 loses but have lost every game since that due to the same two teams.

I currently do 3s solo with my main shaman as resto and I have a lot of fun with that but in fives I just want to bang my head against the wall -- casters duck in and out of LOS and the melee just run figure 8s into my group, breaking the spell cast of lava burst and it seems like the majority of teams I go against are cleave teams and are 500-600 points higher then me on the match making (1200 match making verus 1850... come on).

I canceled my accounts last night but the sub is good for another two weeks so who knows -- part of it is I need a better partner -- it seems like whenever I find one, they get frustrated at losing most of the time too and bail.
06-13-2009, 03:34 PM
Gares

I'm currently gearing my shammies up with a pally who has shit gear too. He's a former Glad Rogue and Glad Lock, but if you can find someone to stick it out it'll be worth it.
06-13-2009, 05:17 PM
Moorea

just for perspective I'm 20 loss 0 wins with my fresh team, and not expecting much more (I don't have gear; got the first piece from the first week and will get 1 more tuesday and maybe also a 3rd piece from honor pts) - I get owned so fast it's almost funny :-)

Oh btw, 0 win and also 0 kill - in 20 matches I didn't kill a single opponent - that will be my first milestone, try to kill 1 ! (small goals/baby steps)
06-13-2009, 07:13 PM
Gares

LOL. I think in my first week with my alliance team (Last week) I killed 3 people, 2 of which were still mounted. I almost won one match too!! haha
06-13-2009, 08:40 PM
Clovis

Right now playing a shaman in general feels like playing the underdog -- so much of our ability to win depends on the other guy fucking up basically.

Ghostcrawler posted the response to the "shaman Q&A" on the wow shaman forum and the basic tone was aside from bumping up our health, maybe, that they were aware of our weekness and are content to leave it alone.

Actually, the response to why our health pools is so low compared to the other classes (21k HP with deadly when other classes have 25k in the same gear) "we nerfed it at some point back in vanilla wow, but we forgot why so we'll look at reversing that at some point" -- 3.2 is what people are expecting as for a time frame, but that's still best case 3 months out.
06-16-2009, 06:47 AM
Tizer

Lots of people are swapping back to 1 account now it seems. I certainly dont feel the drive i used to have so im taking a break, perhaps until the next expansion :D
06-16-2009, 10:01 AM
asonimie

Almost broke 2k last night. We were steamrolling teams for 9-20 points a game... we could have had 2k within the hour. But grr... I play with 2 different priests, and we had to stop to stay in rating range of the absent priest. THIS WEEK... I shall catch you Sinaa.
06-16-2009, 12:32 PM
TeK23

Back before WOTLK, I was running 5 Shamans in Arena and once 3.0 came out, it became a mess. Have you also tried other specs?

There was a guy on there that posted he's running 5 Resto's and can out heals the burst spikes. The key is for you to survive the initial burst because then the warrior is on cool down and it's time to destroy. Also you should be able to burst ANYONE down with 5v1, with a good burst setup. Maybe the issue is you are targeting the wrong person, if you kill one it's 5v4. If you burst down another it's 5v3.

If the DPS has no heals, they will die! Also check out arenajunkies and other forums for strats how to counter each build and target priority.

My brother has been Top 100 wow players since S3 as a LOCK and still 2k through this season as an Affliction Lock in 2's. You need to learn kill priority for each comp and how to counter each comp, it's something you can you study up on and also need to learn in-game.
06-16-2009, 08:14 PM
Dominian

1700 should be doable for anyone if the top rated teams in your bg is flying around 2300-2600.

If your not reaching 1700 your not working hard enough or you simply have no clue.
06-17-2009, 10:56 AM
heyaz

You just gotta outsmart em man, it's going to take some work. Those 1850 teams can be beat, that's where most of our ranking came from. We're at 1515 at the moment and we get paired up against nothing but 2k+ teams, as high as 2300. Anything 1300-1700 though is a joke though once you get some strategies down.

Yes, it's very gimmicky in this patch. There is way too much aoe cc and aoe damage. It's hard to tell what the hell is going on. It's extremely frustrating, and the damage from certain classes is just retarded. We've lost games to 1000 rated teams who swapped in a tier 8 FoK rogue just to beat us. Rogue will pull 150k damage by himself. Seen other teams pull in tier 8 paladins to do the same amount of damage and just never die (funny how 4% chance to miss means 3/4 of my lava bursts don't hit). You've got shadowfury spamming warlocks who take 16 casts to kill if they don't get heals, with a buff that chain procs and can't be purged.

yeah, it's pretty ridiculous, but just tough it out. You'll soon realize some of the stuff 4x shaman can do is just as ridiculous
06-17-2009, 08:48 PM
Moorea

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'heyaz',index.php?page=Thread&postID=209412#post20 9412

yeah, it's pretty ridiculous, but just tough it out. You'll soon realize some of the stuff 4x shaman can do is just as ridiculous

Like what ?
06-17-2009, 09:41 PM
Mokoi

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'asonimie',index.php?page=Thread&postID=208503#pos t208503

@Mokoi: "deadly gear in a furious arena"... ummm hell ya deadly gear in a furious arena. Thats how the system works every season lol. Nobody is fully decked out in Furious sets quite yet... everyone started with deadly or below... making Deadly the BEST set pieces to have starting this season. However Clovis, you should have full furious accessories (rating dependant of course) as SOON as you qualify for them.

the 2k rated teams on Bloodlust are close to full furious easily by now.
06-17-2009, 11:04 PM
asonimie

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Mokoi',index.php?page=Thread&postID=209626#post20 9626

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'asonimie',index.php?page=Thread&postID=208503#pos t208503

@Mokoi: "deadly gear in a furious arena"... ummm hell ya deadly gear in a furious arena. Thats how the system works every season lol. Nobody is fully decked out in Furious sets quite yet... everyone started with deadly or below... making Deadly the BEST set pieces to have starting this season. However Clovis, you should have full furious accessories (rating dependant of course) as SOON as you qualify for them.

the 2k rated teams on Bloodlust are close to full furious easily by now.

I wonder what gear they started the season in.... oh wait thats exactly what I wrote.
06-18-2009, 05:42 AM
Dominian

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'heyaz',index.php?page=Thread&postID=209412#post20 9412

You just gotta outsmart em man, it's going to take some work. Those 1850 teams can be beat, that's where most of our ranking came from. We're at 1515 at the moment and we get paired up against nothing but 2k+ teams, as high as 2300. Anything 1300-1700 though is a joke though once you get some strategies down.

Yes, it's very gimmicky in this patch. There is way too much aoe cc and aoe damage. It's hard to tell what the hell is going on. It's extremely frustrating, and the damage from certain classes is just retarded. We've lost games to 1000 rated teams who swapped in a tier 8 FoK rogue just to beat us. Rogue will pull 150k damage by himself. Seen other teams pull in tier 8 paladins to do the same amount of damage and just never die (funny how 4% chance to miss means 3/4 of my lava bursts don't hit). You've got shadowfury spamming warlocks who take 16 casts to kill if they don't get heals, with a buff that chain procs and can't be purged.

yeah, it's pretty ridiculous, but just tough it out. You'll soon realize some of the stuff 4x shaman can do is just as ridiculous

Nether protection is can be purged, so flame shockx4 then lava burst them + chain lightning and you MIGHT get a kill. However with 2 healers your not near on getting him down!

My tip is to cc the warlock with aoe fear(or HoJ+ aoe silence if you got a belf paladin) then chain hex him!

Destro locks are considered indestructible vs 4 shaman teams so they often get up close to aoe fear you.

Im still on the search for a new healer since my last one is going on a 3 week vacation!
06-18-2009, 12:24 PM
asonimie

Killing warlocks is very tough, they basically have to eat 70-80k dmg to die. Thing is, I can do that much dmg in 4 seconds. If you see a warlock get cocky, dont be afraid to put pressure on him, they often feel safe because they can port back to their pillar. Take this chance to kill his pet, which are pretty easy to drop with LB/CL/FrS. At least it will make his team wait for him to resummon and heal up.

If you get one of these cocky bastards that just sit in front of you with hots on - do a full combo on him (my "full combo" is LB/CL/FlameShock/LvB). It can kill a lock with full health and cooldowns. Important tip: Never use your IWIN button against a warlock unless you've killed 2-3 enemies already. You'll flame shock him and he'll disappear back to his pillar... and you just lost your cooldown. A lot of times high ranked teams will try very hard to "bait" your LvB cooldown by sending out unkillable, lone players... like warlocks/or pets. Never use your EM on easy kills... discipline yourself to always try for a LB/CL/FrS combo.... it does just as much dmg and only takes 3 seconds.
06-19-2009, 12:34 AM
Clovis

Sorry, I've been away for the past few days and neglected this thread. Someone asked me why I hold arena is such regard -- the answer is simple -- arena is required to gain the top end pvp gear.

I was doing BGs heavily with a priest healer and enjoying the set up quite a bit -- then 3.1 came out with the furious gear and furious weapons, however I wasn't able to upgrade my gear since buying even deadly gear requires a relatively high arena rating.

So a team of hateful and deadly gladiator (from drops or the winters grasp equivalent gear) is constantly up against teams with a ton of furious or T8.5 weapons. Arenas are so unballanced that Blizzard's unyielding position on them makes it incredibly frustrating because you simply can't get the gear by doing battlegrounds.

My current arena team is my 2nd one -- the original one, "The Queue" had around 50 games or so.

Since Blizzard is essentially eliminating 2v2 in this patch, that might force more people to play 5s, but today for example, we made a 5s team (my 2 partners in 3v3 and 2 others) and we got the SAME team 10 times in a row. This team was 600 points higher on the match making (1800 versus 1200) because no other teams queued -- this went on for an hour. 3s on the other hand have near instant queues and a variety of teams, all though with the changes in points that recently went live its been frustrated -- we actually dropped from 1720ish to 1580 today -- We were going up against 2000+ rated teams and losing 15-19 points per loss, yet gaining 4-5 points per win -- after losing 150 points, we just stopped for the night. It's incredibly frustrating to lose 15 points against a team, queue against them again and only gain back 7 points for winning -- the current arena system allows you to play 5 games, win 4 of them and gain nothing.

Oh, there is something I forgot though -- to get furious gear, you can run vault 25 once a week, all though in my experience (8 vault runs over the past 4 weeks -- I run 2 shamans at a time) there have been zero shaman drops -- absolutely nothing for pvp or pve, love it.
06-19-2009, 12:48 PM
Dominian

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Clovis',index.php?page=Thread&postID=209978#post2 09978

Sorry, I've been away for the past few days and neglected this thread. Someone asked me why I hold arena is such regard -- the answer is simple -- arena is required to gain the top end pvp gear.

I was doing BGs heavily with a priest healer and enjoying the set up quite a bit -- then 3.1 came out with the furious gear and furious weapons, however I wasn't able to upgrade my gear since buying even deadly gear requires a relatively high arena rating.

So a team of hateful and deadly gladiator (from drops or the winters grasp equivalent gear) is constantly up against teams with a ton of furious or T8.5 weapons. Arenas are so unballanced that Blizzard's unyielding position on them makes it incredibly frustrating because you simply can't get the gear by doing battlegrounds.

My current arena team is my 2nd one -- the original one, "The Queue" had around 50 games or so.

Since Blizzard is essentially eliminating 2v2 in this patch, that might force more people to play 5s, but today for example, we made a 5s team (my 2 partners in 3v3 and 2 others) and we got the SAME team 10 times in a row. This team was 600 points higher on the match making (1800 versus 1200) because no other teams queued -- this went on for an hour. 3s on the other hand have near instant queues and a variety of teams, all though with the changes in points that recently went live its been frustrated -- we actually dropped from 1720ish to 1580 today -- We were going up against 2000+ rated teams and losing 15-19 points per loss, yet gaining 4-5 points per win -- after losing 150 points, we just stopped for the night. It's incredibly frustrating to lose 15 points against a team, queue against them again and only gain back 7 points for winning -- the current arena system allows you to play 5 games, win 4 of them and gain nothing.

Oh, there is something I forgot though -- to get furious gear, you can run vault 25 once a week, all though in my experience (8 vault runs over the past 4 weeks -- I run 2 shamans at a time) there have been zero shaman drops -- absolutely nothing for pvp or pve, love it.

Play on saturday/sunday/monday and thuesday and if you only face one team then your BG fails and you should consider moving.

Atm i facing mostly teams who have 2200 in matchmaking value while im floating around 1850-1900 and i lose 0 rating while they gain 2-3 points..

If you lose 15 points against and team only gain 7 points when winning, you should win vs them sooo..

Either you faced a setup who counters you, but counters nothing else, aka they lose against every team they face apart from you. Or you played to few matches to have a matchmaking valvue in order. (from the way you describe it, your team is not good enough to compete that high)

Sorry but you qq like a little girl after playing 24 matches with a quad team that lacks spec,enchants,jewels and general upgrades. Not to mention a healer who is prot/ret?? You talk about gaining the top pvp gear but your not willing to do anything to improve your current gear to get that..

Are you expecting a faceroll to 2500 rating?
06-19-2009, 01:56 PM
heyaz

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Clovis',index.php?page=Thread&postID=209978#post2 09978

Sorry, I've been away for the past few days and neglected this thread. Someone asked me why I hold arena is such regard -- the answer is simple -- arena is required to gain the top end pvp gear.

I was doing BGs heavily with a priest healer and enjoying the set up quite a bit -- then 3.1 came out with the furious gear and furious weapons, however I wasn't able to upgrade my gear since buying even deadly gear requires a relatively high arena rating.

So a team of hateful and deadly gladiator (from drops or the winters grasp equivalent gear) is constantly up against teams with a ton of furious or T8.5 weapons. Arenas are so unballanced that Blizzard's unyielding position on them makes it incredibly frustrating because you simply can't get the gear by doing battlegrounds.

My current arena team is my 2nd one -- the original one, "The Queue" had around 50 games or so.

Since Blizzard is essentially eliminating 2v2 in this patch, that might force more people to play 5s, but today for example, we made a 5s team (my 2 partners in 3v3 and 2 others) and we got the SAME team 10 times in a row. This team was 600 points higher on the match making (1800 versus 1200) because no other teams queued -- this went on for an hour. 3s on the other hand have near instant queues and a variety of teams, all though with the changes in points that recently went live its been frustrated -- we actually dropped from 1720ish to 1580 today -- We were going up against 2000+ rated teams and losing 15-19 points per loss, yet gaining 4-5 points per win -- after losing 150 points, we just stopped for the night. It's incredibly frustrating to lose 15 points against a team, queue against them again and only gain back 7 points for winning -- the current arena system allows you to play 5 games, win 4 of them and gain nothing.

Oh, there is something I forgot though -- to get furious gear, you can run vault 25 once a week, all though in my experience (8 vault runs over the past 4 weeks -- I run 2 shamans at a time) there have been zero shaman drops -- absolutely nothing for pvp or pve, love it.

Vault was nice, but I didn't start running it on each shaman until probably 5 weeks before the patch. I ended up with 2 deadly chests, 2 hateful gloves, and some random elemental and enhancement pve pieces. Once the patch came out everyone will armory you because of emalon and if you're not in full naxx you don't get invite. I guess I could probably do 2.7-3k dps in my pvp + a few pve pieces I have but I gave up on it anyway