Guild loot rules for a multi-boxer?

First post....hi guys.

Imagine my surprise when my raid leader asked me to bring my 4 shamans instead of my usual holy priest for 25 man naxx. We had some extra slots and since they have never seen them in action, they thought it would be fun to bring them along.

I guess my question is.....loot rules for a multi-boxer. My guild master had no idea how to handle the looting with a multi boxer in the bunch. Since some of you guys are running naxx with your guild, how does your raid handle loot with you (a boxer) around? Are you allowed to only roll once (per toon?). I am worried that the other raiders might think that I am getting special treatment and taking loot away from them. I opted for just badges (didn't roll at all). I sure could use some of the loot - to be honest. I ended up with one tier 7.5 shoulder in the end (raid leader felt bad about me not rolling at all).

thanks for the time...

Are you considering raiding with them? If you brought consumables and could keep up with the others dps i would say that each shaman should be equaly treated as a raid memeber.

However raids tend to see it the other way, your one guy and in every pug im in they ask me if i want to bring my other shamans. When i reply ofc if i can roll on all of them, and the discussion ususaly end there. Its a hard case, i mean Guild Masters cant seem to agree with themself if they should invite all of my shamans or just my "main".. Its not like it matters to me if they are all inside or not! :D

Do you feel your helping the raid or just slowing them down? I belive the answer lie there.

If I was a guild leader, this would be my response. If we are at a point where we are gearing alts and can clear 25man w/o 25 people, then each toon you play counts as a raid member especially in this case where they asked you to bring them over your main. If your still gearing mains and you are filling in holes or whatever and there are others that need upgrades. I would count you as one person but auto give you anything for the others if not NEEDed by someone else. I would not let someone greed over your other toons.

This is a long ongoing problem.

Basically I figure if you are doing 4 X dps or 4 X healing of a single toon you should get 4 rolls.

But obviously boxers are not as effieicent as single character players.

Ask for like 2-3 rolls for 4 characters.

Or what I was doing at the very end was saying I get my choice of ANY single item for the nights work (like 4 hour raid). That way you are sure to get what you want if it drops or walk away with at least one quality item and you get so few items (one) that hardly anyone can complain you are taking what they want.

Guess it kinda depends on the mindset of the guild/raid. If the guild considers a 25 man raid a single unit then any upgrade to one character would be an upgrade to the raid as a whole. If that's the case I don't see why you couldn't roll on all of your characters.

4 rolls. tell the people to stop being pricks (in many of my cases) and using you multiboxing as an excuse for them to have better chance at winning gear (if you only got 1 roll), after all if you weren't there anyway they still have the exact same amount of people to compete with for gear. your doing #x the dps they are so why they heck shouldn't you get to roll on each character. AND paying for that many more accounts then them.

Just talk with the GM. if its farmed contect, I agree with Starbuck_Jones, all should roll equal. If it's new content, I would say just roll on your main, and your alts get a chance to roll on gear not needed for main spec's etc. Maybe treat your alts as your offspec when rolling?

It also depends alot on any loot systems that may be in use.

I have the good fortune to run with the same crew every week... I basically only gear up one toon at a time, then treat the others as an offspec roll as someone else mentioned. This has worked out fairly well for us so far... but really we're so anti loot-drama that I don't think it'd be an issue if I wanted to roll with all of them.

I actually quit my crappy guild because I was going in with 5 toons in Naxx and getting screwed over on loot. I'd get a 500g repair bill every night and I was getting loot like I was a single person at best. Not to mention all the extra stress 5 boxing fights bring. And when a guild member came online, I'd have to drop a guy, then when someone would leave I'd have to bring a guy. All that trouble and expense isn't worth getting loot like you're a solo player. I blew threw 10K in repair bills in a few weeks and got maybe 2-3 drops. I seriously couldn't believe none of the guild members passed stuff to me - only sucking up to the officers. Sooooo un-appreciated.

Considering all the time and expense it cost to level and gear them so they can raid, you deserve some consideration.

If it's a pug, roll on all your toons. Maybe for your guild say that you'll be fine with only 2 rolls. Repair bills are a TON when you bring 4 guys in and wipe.

If I bring 2 guys to a pug I always roll with both. If I have 5 I usually roll on a couple only, but a lot of times it's because I already have the piece on a few of my guys. e.g. bag from OS.

All 4 of my shamans are fully geared for pvp (800 resil, 19.5k HP) -- for raiding so far I only do pugs -- I haven't been able to get into a guild raid since WOTLK which is kind of sad since back in BC I was in pretty much every raid with my resto shaman.

So I do pugs -- two of my shamans have epic flyers, dual specs (Ele / resto) so I usually go double healer -- I'll run the other two if we can't find another dps I'm the only multiboxer on the server that I'm aware of so most people know me -- every run I've been able to roll x the number of toons I have -- most raid leaders are cool with looting a specific item to one of my shamans even if that one didn't win the roll (ie, I won on one of the toons, I'll tell them to loot it to xxx character).

This works great in Naxx but in the one boss raids it's hit or miss (EOE, OS, new vault) because I can walk out with 100g in repairs per toon and not get anything at all -- the last two vaults have been like that -- I've run double heals or double DPS, down the boss after a few attempts but no shaman loots.

InventoryOnPar though is my new favorite mod (gear checks the entire raid) -- I can quickly tell if the raid is capable of a paticular instance.

When I was running 5 mans however I would only roll once because I ran with the same 3 tanks from level 70-80. I told them the tanks to grab any greens they wanted, roll on any blue/epic BOEs that dropped -- we usually got about the same amount of greens.



-Clov

my guild doesn't really know I multibox, and I never bring my guys to raids together -- every week I just do 5x VoA10/25, and 1x Naxx25/Maly25/OS25/Ulduar. If I see anyone with a naxx10/25 saph/KT only pug I might join. I can actually get 4-6 vaults done every tuesday within 90 minutes, and I finish up the other 4-5 over the next few days (both 10 and 25). I don't join voa10 raids unless Im the only one of that class, screw competition I want a monopoly :)

I find raiding a lot more fun when I can focus 100% on just one character, I can see the fights and explore whats going on and if I die its not that much gold. Plus 5x as many chances to roll on stuff. I've already got T8 and T8.5 on 3 of my characters from Vault, and a few Ulduar items on my mage (guild runs tho so its a bit smoother, up to Mimiron).

I've never had a chance to raid with my guild (we have no problem filling raids, sadly... ;) ) but I've PuGged some of the easier 10 man raid content (Sarth, VoA, Maly) and always, always roll with all my characters.

I have the same consumable cost (WHY DID I ROLL HUNTERS AS THE DPS IN MY FIRST 80 TEAM?!... argh.... *cough*...sorry), the same repair bills and clearly contribute alot more to the raid than the single character members so I just wouldn't bother if my characters weren't treated as individuals.

If I did ever go on a guild run, I'd be rolling as an alt on every character anyway, which (under our rules) gives mains priority if they need an item for their main spec.

I'm comfortable with that - I want our mains geared up ahead of the rest of us.

In your position, with the GM unsure of how to handle the situation and open to suggestions, I'd say it depends what your normal guild loot rules are.

If they contain an allowance for alts rolling on loot, clearly all of your characters are entitled to that roll (because your main is a priest).

If they don't contain that sort of allowance, it's arguably a bit more tricky and I'd suggest adding that as a general improvement to the rules anyway.

i would be happy with the badges tbh :)

as a raid leader, a guild leader and a multiboxer my optinion would be to allow the multiboxer to have equal rights on 1 character and to forget the other 3 on follow.

I say this because inviting a multiboxer to a raid provides us/them with a lot of fun which should be the number one reason for raiding. Loot should not come first.

Next week if invited again, you could select a different shaman to roll on loot.

Although, if like me you play tank and 4 shaman, i always take my tank to instances and play solo, get geared up to make heroics easier. :x

No need to be greedy, getting into a 25 man run is a luxury not many boxers get to try :p

besides which, a multiboxers dps isnt all that great :o

it is this simple

pugs = all chars /roll for loot if its an upgrade.

guild runs main char gor prio, unless its an alt run then all bloody chars /roll.

5 times expences ofc i be 5 times as greedy, unless it is a little raid with friends. then i dont mind "sharing"

Silver

The guild I'm in treats multiboxing alts the same as other raid members. Every character gets to roll on an item if they need it. Due to me and Ken bringing mixed groups, we don't get any unfair situations where a normal member has to roll against a lot of alts.

I usually run my own 'naxx25 alt runs' which is mostly a combination of guildies and friends, alts etc. There sometimes are people in the raid that none of us know, so it's still kind of a pug.

We use the 50-dkp system. This basically means everyone gets 50 dkp at the start of the raid, and spends as much as they want on the item they want. Before I started using this system I always felt bad somehow about rolling on multiple chars, but with this 50-dkp system it seems so normal that all my shamans get 50 dkp separately and all bid for their own items. The only advantage I have that way is that I won't have to spend a ton on items, because I of course won't bid myself up. Saying you're taking loot from others, that there is 'more' people to roll against, is just untrue, because if you wouldn't multibox in that raid, there would be 2-3-4 other people invited to the raid that also roll for themselves.

If you'de be 'carried' by the raid, as in, dps lower than the average etc, then I'd say don't be greedy and just accept only rolling on 1, but if every one of your characters plays the roll of a single person in the raid, they all get an equal chance on loot.

I think people have problem with multiboxers rolling as 5 people is that he has the 5x chance to roll on loot and pic on with toon he wants that loot given. Well no matter how you look at it if the multiboxer makes it much more easier then he has full right for it since he brings in 5 times more then a normal single toon player. But if he slows down the raid with his inferior skill and just makes thing worse then I think it would be fitting that he only gets 1 roll as 1 player.

Just think abaut it... 5x DPS with pulls off massive (like 5k in 25 Naxx) is a worthwile support that helps the guild greatly. But if a 5x multiboxer is a complete deuche that requires summoning, dosent food buff, elixir/flask and think he does most of the work then I see no reasons to flank him badly.

Just my 2 cents here: On tier sets/class exclusive pieces, show some consideration for your fellow (insert class here)s and only roll once. No one wants to be the soloboxed shaman having to roll against 5+ shamans all played by one guy for every piece of relevant loot. On the wider user-base peices, roll on all of them.

Of course, I suppose the lack of a hard and fast rule on that would confuse the uninitiated. They'd probably get pissed you were rolling on just one character for some pieces and all your characters for others.

Damn I'm glad loot is up to my sole discretion.

I always go with need before greed meaning the person will use it NOW or at least as soon as they get it enchanted or modified.
I would second look at who attends the most often meaning someone (as in a character being played) who's at every raid and every boss should get at least some consideration over someone who can't.
I not sure how well you can multibox some of the bosses and you apparently don't bring them every time so I think they would roll in the non-need section, and hopefully you aren't opposed to spreading the wealth around if you start winning too much for the night that you start passing on stuff.

it might be best to get the group to agree on whatever loot policy is before the raid starts, that way you can opt not to bring extras that aren't going to get anything for all of the extra work your doing.

I just 5 boxxed KT the other day. My guys are still fresh so I wasn't doing too much more than single geared out character. In this case I just took whatever people didnt want or need.

In TBC I boxed 5 shamans in KZ a lot. Granted, there werent other shaman often in that case. But some of those runs wouldn't of happened if I didnt play half the raid. When they NEED you to come with more than one character in order to get the content done, it is only fair that your characters are treated as individuals and each get a roll. If you can put out the same DPS as a single person can with each of your characters, what makes you any less valuable?

Of course, you can always start your own guild!

There are two sides I'm hearing - It costs alot for us to Raid and Multibox... we should roll on all our toons. And Only roll on Main and count others as alt spec.

I guess it depends on your server too. If you are on a multiboxer friendly server i'm sure you'll find perks. I'm on a not so friendly multiboxer server. I Joined an Ony raid at 70 just to have fun and get the achievement and maybe a bag. Well 2 bags drop and i roll for them on main and win 1 of them... well the master looter in charge says I dont like multiboxers so I dont get any loot. With all my toons dmg i did well over 47% of the dps on Ony lol. Only out dps'd by one warlock.

So if you are with friends.. just have fun and dont be greedy... but then again dont get pushed around for contributing. If you think they should let your toons roll tell them before loot drops... not after. And if they dont agree... just take one shaman and tell them to fill the rest of the spots.

I bring a different character to every raid so that I can gear them up independently. I only use my main shaman on guild Ulduar runs (the rest of my chars aren't even in the same guild). Everything else I can PuG with the rest of my undergeared dps/healz during the week.

Personally, I roll on my ONE most appropriate toon on a given boss/item, unless explicitly worked out beforehand.

If a cloth item drops, I'd either roll on my mage or priest if it was an upgrade for one of them, but never both.

Truthfully, I don't usualy have that issue as I solo-play my priest and she's full 213+ epics, and my mage is barely heroic geared... I'm not likely to be multiboxing anywhere my priest could actually USE an upgrade (Maly 25, Naxx25(KaelThas has my only upgrades), and Ulduar).

More likely, I'm "solo" multiboxing classic and BC content (though I bring my team along on "old skool raid night"), but none of my toons need anything pre-WOTLK, so it's a non-issue.

Guess I am a little confused on loot concerns in Naxx or raids in general. In Naxx, there are 14 bosses, each drops multiple items. 2-3 in 10m, 3-4 in 25m?

On a 10 man run you're going to see at a minimum 28 items.
On a 25 man run you're going to see at a minimum 42 items.

I know the loot drops can sometimes not go a certain role's way. But in general by the end of one run each member of the raid should see at least one piece and a decent amount of gold if you're not wiping every pull. If you’re running with people who have most of their gear from say Naxx, then your chances go way up on gear.

The same numbers roughly apply to Ulduar; however, due to progression certain role’s take priority (in the guilds I have been in, tanks and healers generally get geared first, then dps). Now the gold sink that is progression raiding is an issue, but that goes back to hardcore versus casual players. Hardcore players probably don't have a cash flow issue, and they know the cost of pushing into new raiding content.

The worst gold sink for multiboxers is epic flying! 25k is way more intense if you have multiple teams.

Thus, is all the drama over loot in raids simply a sign of the WoW user base not doing the math? ?( I guess, my advice is play with people who are smart about loot and be patient, it takes some time but the gear comes.

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Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=200227#po st200227

Everyone is allowed to roll. I personally only roll with one of my toons, and if I win, I give it to whatever player of mine I choose too.

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That's basically how I do it. I roll for an item on one character, even if more than one would use it. Like if a nice spellpower ring drops I won't roll with my mage+priest+2xshaman, I'll decide which one I'd want to have it the most and only roll on that one character. If multiple items drop that I'd use (like a vanq token and a protector token,) I'll roll once on each.

If a raider's main character wants an item I always pass though.

In the end it's just loot. I play to see content, become a better player, and have fun with friends. No amount of loot is worth drama, and every single piece of loot will be upgraded sooner or later.

We do 10 man raids with 3 people so not quite the same scenario as the OP but generally if it needs to be rolled on, we roll once for each driver and then it's up to the winner which toon they want to put the loot on. We don't put a loot limit on anyone so if the next boss drops something nice for you, you're just as welcome to roll. That said, we're all family so often we just discuss the loot and come to an agreement (I get the pants or you get the couch? :evil: ). It helps that we don't run even 2 of the same class/spec so it's usually clear who needs it. :)

Are you running as a main or an alt? That's the real question. My guild runs EPGP, mains get first dibs, then alts or offspecs roll off for the leftovers. If you regularly bring your clones, then it's in the guild's best interest to gear them up, but I wouldn't roll over a main. Each of your alts should get a roll imo if no main wants it, offspec and alt gear - it's not forcing progression so who cares. But you should divy out gear so your #2 is better geared than #3 and #4 and so on. That way, if only 2 are needed, you bring your best team possible. No sense spreading out good gear all over if you're not always going to need all 5.

I think that all of this kinda depends on what loot system. Personnaly I believe:

Any pug you roll on everything, a 10 man.. well I only run with friends so no real problems, we go main specs first and armor based (cloth get dibs on cloth, leather for leather first ect).

I think DKP solves this issue, and you can let your characters build points just like normal members. Thats what my guild does for any of my alts, each one has their own set of DKP points so the more I play one the more gear they get. Course alot of times im the only shaman and am able to get geared pretty fast for one guy which I have done now, almost all 7.5 in two raids.

I think its a question of what you want, and whos in your raid. If you are doing most of the dps and beating out everyone then hell yeah roll x4, if your scrubbing along then you prolly shouldnt take gear from those that are really pulling their weight.

Being the leader of a pretty hard core raiding guild (on my solo character, got no boxing team high enough yet) I decided to be more multiboxing friendly than apparently any other guild on my server.
Since we use dkp, I decided that multiboxed characters in our raids, that could all perform as well as soloed characters, would earn and spend their own dkp.
So a dual-boxing warlock friend of mine raided with us a few times, and each character had its own dkp. (they were able to perform perfectly on even thaddius, better than several of the solo players)

I think at the end of the day there is never going to be 1 set of rules that can govern all loot handling. It is bad enough the amount of loot drama before you even take multiboxing into consideration. Each boxer just needs to come to an agreement with the other members of the raid (Be it at the start of the pug, or with your guild leaders). Personally when I used to box with my guild I used to get full dkp on my main and half dkp for my alts. My alts all got geared eventually anyway, and more often than not I would pass items from my alts untill everyones mains had them. Everyone in the guild appreciated my contribution and that was enough for me. On a few rare occasions when I couldnt afford to pay repair/flask costs on all the alts the guild bank would pay.

I didn't ask the guild/raid leader "can I roll with both?", I told them that I'll roll for "Need" with all characters whenever I actually need an item for that specific character, not more. I asked if he agreed with that and he thought it was fine.
If your guild really needs extra characters in the raid, they have 2 choices:
- they allow a multiboxer guildee to bring extra characters that all loot as a 'normal' player
- they PUG someone who might mess up encounters(ninja-pulls), doesn't know the strategies, leaves early, etc and will ALSO loot items for any added PUG character.

Situation examples:
- When I had 2 shamans with me and both would need item X, they would both roll for it and if 1 of them won, I was also able to chose where the item went to(since they needed it both, but one might need it more than the other). I only recall 1 guild member opposing that.
- When I had 2 shamans with me and only 1 would need item X then only that 1 shaman would roll.
- For stuff that everyone can roll on, I roll with all characters.

Now I have a multiclass group, so that simplifies the whole issue even more.

Or to put it short:
If I put effort in playing multiple characters and when I pay the repair bills for raiding with them, I also want the advantage of being able to roll for loot on all those characters. It's only fair.
I don't mind only bringing 1 character though.

I see it this way. IF you didn't bring in your team. Then they would have to invite 5 other people. So I don't see why you can't roll as 5 different people would.

I see no need to pass on loot. Repair,consumables, etc costs a ton. And your ONE person providing for 5. Which IMO alone gets 5 rolls. I see no reason what so ever it should not be this way. It doesn't matter how many people are behind the toons. It comes down to the fact you are helping the raid at as one person but with 5 toons that are doing what 5 other people would do.
Now I do agree with the healing/dps issue. If your not holding up to par then its up to the raid leader/gl to decide. But if all things are going like they should and your holding up to what needs to be done. Then I say roll x5.

I know when my teams get into raiding. Eachone is open to loot. As eachone is its own toon. May be controlled by one person. But its either one person who knows the fights or 5 nubs who have no clue.
But thats me. I'm not a loot hog. As I could care less over all. But I do like the chance to at least say yes I want it or nah its not big enough upgrade. I don't like others making the decision for me. I'm not a child and need my hand held. And will not accept it while playing a game either.

I just recently left a guild because the Gl who was a HORRIBLE healer. Took 3 pieces. Without giving the other 5 of us healers a chance for the items. She decided she was going to take them. And of course it was talked with the officers which NONE are healing spec and didn't care. This to me is ninja looting. Its taking advantage of the other people that are there just to gear yourself up.

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Originally Posted by 'Allestaria',index.php?page=Thread&postID=200546#p ost200546

Now I do agree with the healing/dps issue. If your not holding up to par then its up to the raid leader/gl to decide. But if all things are going like they should and your holding up to what needs to be done. Then I say roll x5.

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I agree. Looting as a 'normal' character does only applies if you perform like 'normal' characters. (maybe with the exemption of the very first run)

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But thats me. I'm not a loot hog. As I could care less over all. But I do like the chance to at least say yes I want it or nah its not big enough upgrade. I don't like others making the decision for me. I'm not a child and need my hand held. And will not accept it while playing a game either.

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I don't care too much about the loot itself either (although it's nice to have), but I do want to be treated fairly/equally as the rest of the characters.

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I just recently left a guild because the Gl who was a HORRIBLE healer. Took 3 pieces. Without giving the other 5 of us healers a chance for the items. She decided she was going to take them. And of course it was talked with the officers which NONE are healing spec and didn't care. This to me is ninja looting. Its taking advantage of the other people that are there just to gear yourself up.

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Taking items from a raid without consulting the whole raid (even if it's not something they can use!) is wrong. Sorting out gear always goes into the raid chat(we use master loot) and if anyone doesn't agree, he/she can speak up. Even after it's announced who gets what, handing out stuff always goes with a countdown too so people can react before the gear is actually handed out.

The naxx 25 runs are just farm runs....gearing up new people. After reading all your posts, I asked the RL if i could roll as 1 person (for my 4x elem. shammies) and then decide who gets the loot (if i win). Last night, we ran plague and spider wing again. These wings are fairly easy to box - except for heigan. I didn't get anything =P. Only time I had a shot at rolling (shoulder token), a hunter rolled a 100 :pinch: . My shammies were averaging 2700 dps. It's not the best, but it wasnt the worst either. Overall, still had fun.

My shammies survived heigan too! All 4 lived......strafe for the win. I wished they were all strafing at the same angle, but they still managed to dance.....lol.

Thanks for the feedbacks.

B.TW. I really hate Skadi.

There are two different things to consider, imo.

Firstly, in a PUG, I'd have each toon roll on anything that was an up for the toon in question.
If you have four toons, yet only one is upgraded, only that toon should roll.
If you have four toons, all of whom are upgraded, they should each roll.

Secondly, in a guild run, it really comes down to how often your secondary/slaves will attend.
If they are there as fill in characters, the secondaries probably shouldn't roll against a main.
If on the other hand, your team will attent the majority of raids, they should be treated as individuals.
If the guild wants to give you a single dkp pool, that's fine, but then each toon should earn dkp simultaneously.
Bottom line: If the team is part of the progression, they should gear up too.

I've personally, in the past, been told only one toon can roll, and have in those situations only brought one toon.
Pretty much, if I raid, its 1-boxing now.

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Originally Posted by 'Starbuck_Jones',index.php?page=Thread&postID=2001 44#post200144

If I was a guild leader, this would be my response. If we are at a point where we are gearing alts and can clear 25man w/o 25 people, then each toon you play counts as a raid member especially in this case where they asked you to bring them over your main. If your still gearing mains and you are filling in holes or whatever and there are others that need upgrades. I would count you as one person but auto give you anything for the others if not NEEDed by someone else. I would not let someone greed over your other toons.

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I agree with this.