Multiboxing should not be considered in game design ???

Background : This thread on the FoH forums is a discussion on the MMO currently in development by 38 Studios . 38S was founded by Curt Schilling , the Baseball player, Todd McFarlane , the artist (Spiderman, Spawn etc) and the fantasy novelist R A Salvatore, creator of Drizzt Do'Urden and killer of Chewbacca, amongst many other fantasy works. I truly believe these guys are going to produce a very special MMO. The quality of staff they have recruited is exceptional and their company ethos is outstanding. The thread on FoH is a 'fast track', if you like' to 38S. Curt and a number of the dev staff regularly read and reply to the thread.

A couple of times I've brought up the subject of multiboxing. Historically and until very recently the FoH forums have been very anti-boxing, so its not the best place to have the discussion. However, Its a great place to be getting the attention of the folks forming what I believe will be a milestone of Eastern MMO development (its actually nearly two and a half years into its development cycle).

In summary, I've suggested boxing comprises a not insignificant part of the customer base and that a small number of minor issues being considered by the game designers early in the games development cycle could produce huge benefits in terms of both game experience and subscription numbers.


The replies are pretty much along the lines of ; '..multi-boxing is not a problem that needs to even be discussed..', to '..Designers should waste no time on developing a damn thing with multi-boxing in mind.' and, possbily the furthest from the truth post I've ever seen on boxing, '...It's a non-issue. Seriously. Multi-boxers have never been frowned upon..'.



So, a couple of points :

i) have you ever been frowned upon for boxing; and,

ii) what small things would you like to see designers consider which could make life better for us and make their game more attractive ?

hahahah i agree with fursphere's first comment this thing is doomed

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Originally Posted by 'Coca Cola Injection',index.php?page=Thread&postID=179520#pos t179520

hahahah i agree with fursphere's first comment this thing is doomed

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No disrespect to you or Furb - seriously, but you guys are sounding more ignorant than most anti-boxers. Schilling actually helped put up the money and found the company and is Chairman of the Board, but he isn't part of the game development or dev staff; as far as dev staff and game designers they have recruited amongst the bets people in the industry. I am 100% confident this company will produce a very special MMO.

To be able to multibox the game needs:

follow and assist options
some sort of party mode to share credit for questing/looting
customizable macros
windowed mode

I think any mmo not adding those in a rudimentary form is doomed to begin with. Unless the mmo is an FPS hybrid that is more based on the mouse targeting than sticky targeting which I think multiboxing wouldn't really work in the first place.

Things that would make boxing easier:

An option to change your facing to be pointing at what you're targeting.
Ability to move into range of your target.
A combination of master looter and round robin such that one person does the looting and it spreads it amongst everyone in the group.

I'm not going to comment on the quality of the game, because I have no idea of the expertise of the creators in the gaming world, though the background of the creators definitely doesn't lead me to think that they have any advantage that the other 500 MMOs haven't had before them.

To answer your questions:

i) I've only been frowned on by people that appear to not understand what I'm actually doing. Being called a "botter" is a pretty clear give-away that the fear is based on ignorance.

ii) I don't want to see any MMO do too much to make multi-boxing "easy". I like the challenge, and taking that away would also take away a lot of driving force behind me wanting to even do it. As long as the game has a built-in following system, allows the use of some means to pre-define attack/heal/assist rotations, and permits at least hardware/software replication of keystrokes, then I think it has all we really need to get the job done. The only other optional, but very useful, feature would be to allow custom addons that can be used to make routine actions easier to handle, without really playing the game for us.

Given the track record of MMOs the odds are any new MMO is going to fail -- after all, out of dozens of MMO launches only a handful are still around today, and only one has really achieved breakout success. All have had great teams, funding, personalities, etc but failed in some of the very basics of the game or replay value (AoC, Matrix, Tabula Rasa, Fury, POTBS, etc), not because they didn't support multiboxing well. I'd put multiboxing support in the same category as supporting blind/deaf/etc users -- put in some basics to not shut it out, but its something you can iterate over even after launch, not something to focus on during design.

Sometimes having too many "great" people is actually a bad thing, since you end up with decision paralysis and no clear decision leader.

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Originally Posted by 'Flight',index.php?page=Thread&postID=179525#post1 79525

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Originally Posted by 'Coca Cola Injection',index.php?page=Thread&postID=179520#pos t179520

hahahah i agree with fursphere's first comment this thing is doomed

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No disrespect to you or Furb - seriously, but you guys are sounding more ignorant than most anti-boxers. Schilling actually helped put up the money and found the company and is Chairman of the Board, but he isn't part of the game development or dev staff; as far as dev staff and game designers they have recruited amongst the bets people in the industry. I am 100% confident this company will produce a very special MMO.

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I have no doubt that they would have recruted excelent programers and such along those lines. I was juse imputing my thought of that this game, and its design, how it looks, the options, and everything along those lines will in the end run past those 3 people from my assumption. This the game will in ends sort of be designed by them. I.E. if they dont like something chances are they will tell the programers to chnge it. And something the comes into an agreement from the likes of those 3 people i think is bound to be one odd and as you said "special" MMO. I dont think it will be that big of a hit.

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Originally Posted by 'Tombs',index.php?page=Thread&postID=179526#post17 9526

To be able to multibox the game needs:

follow and assist options
some sort of party mode to share credit for questing/looting
customizable macros
windowed mode

I think any mmo not adding those in a rudimentary form is doomed to begin with. Unless the mmo is an FPS hybrid that is more based on the mouse targeting than sticky targeting which I think multiboxing wouldn't really work in the first place.

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The last two are not necessary. I boxed in DAOC, which did not have a macro system, and macros were very illegal in that game.

Second, if you hardware box, you don't need windowed mode.

IMO, multiboxers enjoy being different from the norm. If developers created a game with multiboxing in mind, then it would take that additional step of encouraging the playstyle thereby ruining the niche. A good amount of the fun in MB comes from trying to figure out how to do things through macros, strategies, etc that other players need multiple users. If 50% of the WoW players were MB, then it would likely lose its appeal to many current MBs.

You can fill your mmo's with tons of good stories,epic areas,good gfx etc etc but if the gameplay fails the game simply falls trought. Who wants to spend years after years on a game that looks good but isnt fun to play?

Blizzard showen us this with Diablo,starcraft and WOW.

Why did AoC fail?

It had everything and damn what a potential it had tobad it simply wasnt fun to play, sure it had bugs but would everyone left if it was FUN to play? nah

I'd like to see more innovative play like Guild Wars, having your own party of AI bots as an option is cool. The game all over though isn't that exciting. That's the problem as stated above, you can't live on features or graphics alone. The game has to have substance, flavor. Look at classic console games, old NES and even Atari games had some of the most laughable graphics, ever. But ... even now some of those games are still playable, some more than just playable. Why? Because they were/are fun!

Throwing big names at people doesn't necesarily mean they will produce something good. Just being an MMO doesn't entitle a game to massive fandom, profitability, or quality. More often than not I'm stuck wondering why I should play game X over game Y, and as yet the only game to make me switch has been to WoW from FFXI, due to the ability to solo to the level cap isntead being stuck LFG to get any thing done.

Thus far, I haven't seen anyone really take up the challenge of trying something new. Just the same old tired "we PvP HARDER than that other game!"

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hahahah i agree with fursphere's first comment this thing is doomed

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Erm, that's a very impressively typical response, but you don't really have a clue. I know a few of the guys there, and gather that 38's staffed mostly by hardcore game-obsessed industry veterans, and is fortunate to have tons of funding and a bit of time to figure things out. I've been doing this for about 10 years and in my professional opinion, 38 is in a sweet position to make something awesome. Any developer should be so lucky. They're far from doomed. Pfft.

Multiboxing as we understand it isn't really a practical consideration in game design. Not for the reasons given by the Haters™, but because there's usually so much to do and account for and polish that a feature set directed at a tiny number of players will make it to the chopping block by the first milestone. You'd be surprised at the tons of more important or more widely-appealing features that don't make it into the final build. That we have /follow is pretty much all the multiboxing support we can hope for, sorry. :)

I would just like them to state in the TOS that mult-boxing is a legal form of play and educate their game masters about it.

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Originally Posted by 'Gorthu',index.php?page=Thread&postID=179581#post1 79581

I would just like them to state in the TOS that mult-boxing is a legal form of play and educate their game masters about it.

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Yes, please! A lot of them seem to know this, but too many others were not present at that meeting.

Flight!

You were on Bristlebane back in EQ as I recall. Your name is so familiar. Were you in AO or another guild like RoV, CoL, Club Fu?

Remember a Wood Elf bard named Alumriel? (that's me)

Nice to see you around here. =)

Best of luck to this group.
Wasnt Shilling the eq player that like to go in game and let everyone know he was someone famous, do interviews and post on msg boards about it too?

WoW has proven time and time again its not all about the greatest and latest graphics to be successful. It helps. But im betting the average hardware of the 10mil+ people playing wow is not top of the line stuff and wont play these games in an acceptable fassion.

Grabbing a licence doesnt mean success either. Look at SWG, Connan, Warhammer, Matrix, LotR... Even original content doesnt work either. Tabula Rassa and that one game by sigal that SOE bought.

If I was asked to be a part of this group, I would not jump right into a MMO. I would take a book out of Blizzards book. Build a single player game with great multi player capabilities like starcraft, warcraft, diablo. Offer a free online service with pay as you go services, (battlenet) and get your feet wet that way. I think any company that hasnt already broken into the mmo world is doomed to failure period at this point.

Reason is with WoW's success and quality track record. I conclude that one of the major reasons no other game has had any great success is because the quality isnt there. Why pay for another game thats not finished, polished etc when they can play wow, EQ or EVE?

I don't think multiboxing is something any company is going to spend much focus on. There just isn't the player base for it, so why waste money? It makes no business sense. Regardless, everything that makes playing as a group will work in favor of multiboxing [in general].

I am amazed that the FoH forums are so active still. Does FoH as a guild still exist??

Also, I think there is always room for new MMOs [which take years to develop anyway], however timing the release is important (i.e., Vanguard would have been more successful I think if it hadn't released when Burning Crusade did). I imagine many people get tired of playing the same game for years. Look at WoW, I have a feeling that many people are already "done" with the expansion but don't have any alternatives they feel happy with ATM. I don't think many new players would be interested in starting fresh in a 10 year old game like EQ either. Talk about impossible to catch up!

Game developers need to learn why EQ and WoW were so successful and just mimic them and add some new twists. For example, instances are very important to me now. As an ex-EQer I don't think I can live without instancing as implemented in WoW. The whole e-peen image is fairly important too. Back in the day in EQ you would know who accomplished what. I think that excited and drove people to try to meet those accomplishments.

Anyway, the more the merrier IMO.

Sadly 38 Studios first MMO is allegedly going to be a fantasy MMO. Which is slightly ironic, since Blizzard's next MMO is probably going to be set in the Starcraft universe. Hopefully Bioware blows us all away with their Star Wars MMO. I wouldn't count too much on the stargate MMO, I'm in the beta and its pretty crappy (and rumors constantly abound about the company being this close >< to shutting down, which sucks, since I am totally gay for anything Stargate)

If the game is good, and I mean really good, then I agree that they shouldn't lift a finger to help multiboxers. Good games draw lots of innovative players that are inclined to make an already fun game an overall better experience for them. With that said, if the game doesn't have /follow then it'll be mighty tough for anyone to multibox. Someone will find a way around that I'm sure.

R.A. Salvatore is one of my all time favorite fantasy writers, and I've always been a fan of Curt Schilling, including the bloody sock. (If you don't follow baseball then you won't get that remark). But just because a game has rich investors doesn't ensure that it's going to be great. Gameplay is ultimately the bottom line. I'm like some of the other posters above; this endeavor is up against steep odds and I'll be moderately surprised if it has any kind of success.

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Originally Posted by 'puppychow',index.php?page=Thread&postID=179665#po st179665

I wouldn't count too much on the stargate MMO, I'm in the beta and its pretty crappy (and rumors constantly abound about the company being this close >< to shutting down, which sucks, since I am totally gay for anything Stargate)

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Don't say that!! *whine* The possibilities with the Stargate concept made me have so much hope!

But on topic, I don't think games should be designed around boxers, just like I don't think games should be designed around, say collecting stupid friggin pets and "points" for going through content at 80 that you should have done at 10. I think game companies need to stop sniffing around the butts of what they think worked and start getting innovative on their own. These game companies have no idea what makes games succeed anymore. For starters, a working game at release would be nice {Vanguard, I'm looking at you}. A game that feels like an MMO and not just a single-player RPG with a chatroom {I see you over there, AOC}.

Jumping on the multi-boxing bandwagon as a way to market games is about as brilliant an idea as saying "It's got elves and dragons and Asain chicks play it!!" and expecting that to sell you a couple million copies. While I am very unlikely to play a game that I can't multi-box, I still might if the game is good enough. On the other hand, I'm not gonna pay $50 x 3, 4, 5 or more to play a game that sucks just because they love boxers and give us free toys or something.

Whoever said that they should not waste thier time/resources on developing for multi-boxers was right. They should worry about developing a good game instead of sticking all the latest fads into one big messy box. Show me a good game first. If they're smart, they don't outright prevent boxing and all you smart people here can figure out how to make it work. If they're real smart, they work with us later by doing things like making auto-follow smoother or their macro system neater and saying "Hey, Multiboxing, but not botting, is cool with us, stop bugging them!" And no, I don't give enough credit for most people to know the difference between us and bots yet. I won't play a game that can't make the distintion.

IIRC they said it was a new universe, so not starcraft, warcraft, or diablo. Unfortunately this probably also means no rock and roll racing mmo...

If multiboxing is allowed then it definitely should be considered in the game design. Do it in a way that makes it possible in non-annoying ways(/follow, /assist), while making sure boxers don't have a huge edge over players that don't box. This isn't something that a huge amount of time should be spent on, and the game should be designed around the solo player first and foremost.

[quote='Bollwerk',index.php?page=Thread&postID=1796 30#post179630]Flight!

You were on Bristlebane back in EQ as I recall. Your name is so familiar. Were you in AO or another guild like RoV, CoL, Club Fu?

Remember a Wood Elf bard named Alumriel? (that's me)

Nice to see you around here. =)[/quote]Heya Alum

Yeah its Flight from BB and of course I remember you. [url='http://www.dual-boxing.com/forums/index.php?page=Thread&postID=1660&highlight=#post1 660']I've been around for a while[/url] - back then people like Xzin weren't using broadcasting keyboard they were using synchronized mouse to activate their toons.

Good to see you too, hope you and yours are well. :)

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Originally Posted by 'Khatovar',index.php?page=Thread&postID=179687#pos t179687

But on topic, I don't think games should be designed around boxers, just like I don't think games should be designed around, say collecting stupid friggin pets and "points" for going through content at 80 that you should have done at 10

Whoever said that they should not waste thier time/resources on developing for multi-boxers was right. They should worry about developing a good game

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I want to underline that in the original post I wasn't disagreeing at all - I absolutely agree with Khatovar.


What I said was : small number of minor issues being considered by the game designersearly in the games development cycle could produce huge benefits in
terms of both game experience and subscription numbers

What I am looking for is small ideas - basic game mechanics - that benefit boxers, but also non-boxers. Things like auto facing and looting options have been great ideas to suggest and debate.

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Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=179769#po st179769

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Originally Posted by 'Flight',index.php?page=Thread&postID=179750#post1 79750

What I am looking for is small ideas - basic game mechanics - that benefit boxers, but also non-boxers. Things like auto facing and looting options have been great ideas to suggest and debate.

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Do you work for them?

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No mate. But I wish I did - I really believe in the company they have put together.

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Originally Posted by 'Flight',index.php?page=Thread&postID=179750#post1 79750

What I am looking for is small ideas - basic game mechanics - that benefit boxers, but also non-boxers. Things like auto facing and looting options have been great ideas to suggest and debate.

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I'm iffy on the auto-facing, as it has a small underpinning of doing some action instead of the user. Granted, Blizzard does use it for for channeled attack spells, but there's not many of those. Otherwise, I think anything I would want to suggest has already been covered above.

These games are supposed to be designed around the idea that you advance through combat and tactics/strategy. Anything that doesn't have any impact on the advancement of the game I don't really have much of an opinion on. Stuff like looting rights, player housing (or other storage methods), gender re-assignments, player pets, etc, etc. If they exist, great...if not, then it doesn't make the game any easier or harder to play.

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Originally Posted by 'Starbuck_Jones',index.php?page=Thread&postID=1796 31#post179631

Wasnt Shilling the eq player that like to go in game and let everyone know he was someone famous, do interviews and post on msg boards about it too?

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No idea on how he acted in EQ, but as far as I can tell Schilling is a pretty hard core gamer who seems to really enjoy MMORPGs. He plays (or played) WoW, if I am not mistaken. I saw an interview on a gaming site and he seemed like any other video gamer geek, talked about his "rigs" and gaming and the like. I like his enthusiasm and willingness to 'mingle' with the crowd on his blog and message boards.

As for developers proactively supporting multiboxing, all I am generally concerned with is that they are not against it. As long as they tolerate it, I'm cool with that. Heck, if they make a game that is deep and involved and fun to play with friends, I won't even worry about multiboxing...

I know Schilling plays WoW, I used to know who his character was, maybe I can dig up the link. He is also a very avid gamer and has been for a very long time. I don't know much about the other guys or the team they put together, though I do know they were looking for "competitors" and top notch technical people only. There is no guarantee of success for any game. But Curt seems like a good guy and I hope they do well.

Here is an article I found. I think it is a rehash of the one I read a while ago. It is a random google link. If you don't like it just good Curt schilling wow.

http://kevcr0we.wordpress.com/2007/1...d-of-warcraft/

The game company
http://www.38studios.com/

his blog - searching for warcraft
http://38pitches.weei.com/?s=warcraft&x=0&y=0