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Ok so I dont understand FPS. My understanding is that video is somewhere between 26-36 fps and that the eye cant determine frame speeds much beond these, so why is it important to get Fps as high as possible?
I've been looking around but cant find an answer for this.
Cheers
VMP
If I ever get above 20 FPS I'll let you know. ;)
I got one better if i can keep my fps over 18 for more then 2 mins at a time ill let you know lol. Mine goes 18 fps for 2 mins then instance drop to 2 fps for 30 secs then back and forth like that. Talk about killing trying to box grrrrrrr.
because the PFS is never constant, and having it at 60 means it will dip to 40, or 30, or less. if you have it at 36, it will start at 36, but will dip when things start to happen. so best to have your max fps set to really high, so if it drops, it has a lot of room to fall.
you can totally tell the difference if you have the two settings on, one after the other. first play at 36fps for a while. then switch to 60fps. you will see crisper movement for your char, other chars, mobs and even the environment around you.
Whats the point of 120HZ tv sets ... they actually look better then 60HZ sets ...
i believe movies are made at 24fps, and cartoons at about 12-18fps, to give you an idea of what your eyes seen
higher fps will just make all the movements smoother, and softer to the eye. And as was said, fps varies alot depending on what you do. Anyone can get 60fps when staring at a textured wall in full screen, but the fps dips when flying, using spells etc
ask 5 DK to do their aoe spells in dalaran and see how much fps you get there as a benchmark.
I never found out mine, i usually need to relog when it happens :(
Sounds like I'll need a GPU upgrade and set my maxFPS higher to see what it's like.
Cheers all for the quick replys.
VMP
I hear real life is over 9000!!!! fps but the human eye can't detect it so we see everything at 36fps.
But seriously, I can tell a huge difference between 36 FPS and say...60FPS, so whatever info you found about the human eye not seeing faster than that can't be right :)
lol 9000 DpsQuote:
Originally Posted by 'Hachoo',index.php?page=Thread&postID=169124#post1 69124
LOL woops, the word "dps" just comes out after the number 9000 involuntarily ;) Fixed it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Zal',index.php?page=Thread&postID=169128#post1691 28
Being an albino, I've been plagued with all sorts of vision problems, and one of them is that I register higher FPS than average. Things like LED taillights on cars and some flourescent lights really drive me bonkers. When the holidays are going on, the mall is full of things that give me an instant headache because I can see the lights flicker on and off. It's rather annoying. :cursing:
quite a few people find that slower FPS settings can cause motion sickness, so the higher the better, and as for the statment that the human eye can't perceive higher than 36 frames per second.. that varies on an individual basis, as I can differentiate between 40 and 60 frames per second and so can quite a few of my friends and family.
OK, first, the eye doesn't see at 36 (or any other fixed rate) fps. It is a true constant real time update. The only limitation is the speed at which the nerves send the signal to the brain.
Motion in movies seems smooth due to 1: blurred shots (think trails following a moving object) and 2: the brain is very good at understanding what something is supposed to look like (someone walking, car driving, etc.) and adjusting what you "see" to make it look right. In games the blur effect doesn't happen due to the way models are displayed. Imagine the processing power you would need to have to generate the correct size, direction, and such of all those trails. That is why in a game, having higher fps makes it look better/smoother. Your eye is picking up all of those frames (faster than your brain can consciously process them) and blurring them into the smooth motion you see. You get the choppiness once your brain is able to process each frame completely before getting hit with the next frame. And yes, it is different for each person.
It is possible to have a computer which never drops the FPS, but that means that most of the time you wouldn't be using the system's full power. I always set my computer such that it always gets the same FPS. Right now I can do 5 windows in Dalaran on one computer with a main winow on medium settings, but I never tried jacking it up because it's not worth it to me. I don't mind low graphics settings either. The game doesn't look real to me either way.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Zub',index.php?page=Thread&postID=169082#post1690 82
i think its 42 fps. movies go at 42 fps. if you stick a frame in it with a message once every 42 frames that has nothing to do with the movie, you can get people to buy drinks and popcorn and they'll never know what caused it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Zub',index.php?page=Thread&postID=169082#post1690 82
Movies are 24 fps, I'm pretty sure about that. Some Saturday morning cartoons can run as low as 4-6 fps, depending on how cheaply they are made. Some older ones (like Looney Tunes) are probably much higher fps because originally they were created to run in movie theaters before the main attraction.
As for the rate at which your game will look best, I think the most important factor is the consistency of the frame rates, once you are over ~20 fps. If your game was rendered at a consistent and steady 24 fps, it would look very smooth to the eye, possibly just as smooth as 30 fps or even 60 fps. If you are getting 60 fps but every now and then you get a drop to 40/50 fps, I think your eye registers the changes and you notice the flicker or stutter.
None of that is scientific by the way, so I may be wrong. :P
I've done some video editing and video game programming, so I have some experience with this stuff. For the record:
- Traditionally motion pictures are shot at 24 fps. This will change going forward as more people shoot on HD digital rather than film.
- US Television (NTSC) is at 29.97 fps interlaced (59.94 fields per second)
- European TV (PAL) is at 25 fps (but is higher resolution per frame than NTSC)
- Hi-def TV formats are actually a bit flexible, from 23.97fps up to 60. The reasons for several of the frame rates being supported have to do with making it easy to convert input meant for older TVs, old movie sources, etc.
Many shenanigans ensue when converting between the various video playback formats. All of them rely on your brain doing a lot of the heavy lifting; what you see when you watch a movie isn't what's "really" there (and to some animals, it just looks like garbage). The responsiveness of human vision is highly variable depending on the person, the ambient light, your age, etc., but the low frame rate of movies (24 is actually quite low) has to do with the limits of technology back abut 80 years ago. 60fps movies would look noticeably more awesome. Video games should always shoot for 60fps as a minimum, WoW fails here quite often but whachagonnado.
Some fun reading:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HD_TV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persistence_of_vision
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_perception
Enjoy!
The answer is that the bold text is wrong. I know this floats around, but anybody can tell the difference between 24hz and 60hz.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Vmpwraith',index.php?page=Thread&postID=169059#po st169059
There is a lot of history behind the choice of TV refresh rates, and I'll let you google it if you're interested. Bottom line is it has as much to do with economy and practicality as it does with what the HVS is capable of.
Also, there is a difference between motion-blur display (TV) and discrete frame rendering (WoW), which is why a 24fps TV looks good and 24fps WoW looks like crap. :)
It looks better?
My last setup ran at about 50-60fps tops, new one runs about 60fps average and 100+ in instances and smaller zones etc, you can tell the difference. The only ones that will tell you the human eye cant see past 30fps and all that bullshit are the ones who cant afford to so they have an excuse for themselves :)
Ah it all sounds good... Bottom line MORE is better :-)
I must admit I had always set my maxfps to 40 because of what a friend had told me when i was a kid, but now I've set them higher it is better. Funny I've played for years and never bothered with it (mostly beacuse my olf GPUs would have had a melt down). How sad my Wow has been. I've been playing blind.
thankx all
Some reading for you:
http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frame...humans_see.htm
Nice read : -)
Something very important about movies and television is that they will use the magic of a motion blur between frames to put it simply which prevents them from looking 'choppy' which video games simple are not capable of.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Zub',index.php?page=Thread&postID=169082#post1690 82
E-Peeeeeeen
Yep, not everyone registers at the same rate...those new tailights drive me nuts when driving at night, they are flickering very quickly to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Nisch',index.php?page=Thread&postID=169145#post16 9145
Ahh the old how many FPS can the human eye see debate. I remember about 6 years ago fighting this argument. After a lot of research on the issue it comes down to this.
Games and FPS. Anything over the refresh rate of your monitor is a waste and if its not a factorial of the refresh rate then your likely if your perceptive enough to see flickers, tearing and stuff. Thus the 240hz 120hz 60hz HDTV debates in regards to source media 1:1 3:5 ratios blah blah blah.
TV, Movies and Motion Blur. That whole shake your hand in front of your eyes and its all broken up 9 fingers thing is full of crap, that's all a trick of the crappy lighting where your at. Go outside on a sunny day and do it again if you have doubts. This gets even more goofy when you play with motion blur. With the right blurring in place watching a screen that does 10fps will look just as good as 60fps. Motion blurring is another trick of the eye, but also a camera trick as well. If you watched a movie at 24 fps and there was not captured motion blur it would look like shuddering choppy crap. Even video games put motion blur type effects in to make things look smoother. There's already many links explaining how motion blur works in regards to detail and how the eyes work etc.
Real Life VS computer specs. You cant compare Apples to Macbooks equaly. Take a moment and do the following. Dont move your head at all, but just your eyes. Look at something close, look at something further away, then up, down, left, and right. Look at the detail of the things you see. The texture of things. If theres something moving watch it for a while. Now what resolution and fps is real life playing in? Light is not entering your eye at 24 pulses/frames per second, your not looking through eyes that have 1024x768 lines of resolution. Real life streams to your eye at a FPS/Resolution that no computer can reproduce.
Conclusion. Its all tricks.
There is a notable difference for me between say 30 and 100 fps
and that is that 100 will give a much smoother look specifically when fast turning. Seriously, try it, put it on 30 and turn reaaaal fast then put it much higher and turn reaaaaaal fast. The eye sees more then you can imagine!
That said tho, I multibox with maxfps on 20, and it's pretty solid on 20, never really drops, and it's fins too. :p
Ok now i have to agree with the new card and the improved fps Wow looks awsome. I wish i had had a great card sooner.
Well, to the OP, not sure if this is exactly what you were asking, but:
FPS is typically measured during a relatively static time in the game when not a lot is happening on the screen (barring the lagfest known as Dalaran). If you are sitting at 100 FPS at that point, then when you get to a place where the load on your graphics card is much higher, your FPS will drop. You have a lot farther to drop at 100 FPS baseline than at 35 FPS baseline before things start looking very choppy, so to me it is about the ability to handle temporary increased loads at certain times (hello Wintergrasp).
for any that may care...
24 fps movies
30 fps standard def TV
60 fps HDTV
120 fps super HDTV
:!: pay attention to the bit below
as for your game screens... you want to balance your fps with your cpu/gpu load. if your system is doing 40 fps, but the cpu is at 100%, then you're max'd out. if anything happens that would require more cpu, you're going to lose fps (you should target an average of < 80%... and if anything comes up, your system can handle it). the best would be to lower the fps, or better still.. lower the number of pixels that need to be rendered.
as such... if you are using keyclone's maximizer, then you can tweak this fairly easy. the in-game resolution for each region is just below the PiP hotkey field. it defaults to 800x600, but you can type anything into it so long as you keep with the format. this is where you'll pick up savings for rendering... and this is how.
imagine your main area is 1600x1200 and you have 4 alt screen, each at 800x600. each has the in-game resolution set to 1600x1200. for each screen, wow will render according to the in-game resolution you specified for that region. in this scenario, you are rendering 9,600,000 pixels if each screen were to render 1 frame. you have some savings by adjusting the maxfpsbk and maxfps... but we can go further still.
the pc can do a 200% zoom in hardware and is very quick. we'll take advantage of this.
now, set all your regions in-game resolution to 800x600. this will result in your wows rendering 2,400,000 pixels per frame.... 25% of the original number. this is a RADICAL reduction in computational requirements and should result in lower cpu and gpu requirements.
to adjust your existing setup, look at the dimensions of your main area... divide the width and height each by 2 (ie: 1000,800 -> in-game res: 500x400). do this for all regions. this will not only improve performance, but also insure that the aspect ratio for each area is correct.
i hope that helps.
Rob
specifically while fast turning, the eye can see up to 100, perhaps even more for the individual here and there.
It's still a minor increase tho and the difference would hardly be noticable, but if you can get 100ish fps, try it out and turn fast in wow. I'm positive you should see the difference. (I do!)
But is it needed? Nah. :P 20ish FPS is already playable enough really.
As pointed out already, eyes (and brains) don't process all at the same speed, so there is no magical perfect FPS number for all humans. People also claim to see a difference all the way up to 120 MHz, which is only kind of true.
To explain as simply as I can, if you're not processing the images at the same exact frequency as they are being presented, then you will notice disparity. If you process images at 30 FPS, and they are generated at 34 FPS, then you're going to be processing more transitional images (one image morphing into the next) than clean images. Your eye is taking a "snapshot" of what you see more often at times when the image is in the process of changing to the next one, because you're not perfectly synched up with the rate they are delivered.
Higher FPS means the transitions from one image to the next happen much faster, and less likely to be caught by the eye. So, in theory, there is no FPS threshold that can be claimed to be perfect. But there's theoretical thresholds where you'll stop seeing any difference at all (which will be somewhere in the hundreds if not thousands of MHz).
I'm not a video editor or a film maker, but I can tell you this. 9 years ago, when Quake Deathmatch was all the rage, I was initially averaging about 30 frames per second. I had a "slower" machine at the time. A full rebuild about a year later yielded no less than 60 frames per second. Wow, what a difference. My response time improved, my scores improved... it was like night and day.
So from that alone I can say this:
There is a noticeable difference, improving frame rate beyond 30, at least until 60.
Though I can't say about going above 60... while you are less likely to bottom out to a noticeable frame rate if you are running higher than 60 (120? higher?) you probably wont notice any actual improvement while you are up that high.