Incoming Pally Nerfs that Affect Tanks

"Judgement of Wisdom: mana gained reduced to 1% of maximum mana and proc frequency cut by 50%. This ability was flat out better than Vampiric Touch when the mana provided between the two really needs to be close in order for the decision between Shadow priest and Retribution paladin to be a real one."

"Judgement and Seals: Damage reduced by 20%. This is the major damage adjustment -- a lot of damage was coming from these. We do realize this hurts Holy and Protection as well, and that is something for which we are prepared to offer compensation (particularly if it hurts Protection's threat generation)."

These are part of a list of changes to nerf Ret damage.

That second one being the major one but as stated hopefully they get it settled for tanks.

Pallies are doing enough dmg that a 20% reduction from judgements and seals won't hurt too bad. I'm not sure how they will buff the prot spec to compensate, maybe increase dmg done by holy shield or something.

TO THE GROUND BABY!

IMHO...a MASSIVE buff then a little nerf, is still a buff!!

they also said they would adjust tanking abilities to offset the nerf to ret paladins.

so uh, yeah no need to adjust your panties.

Hmm, stealthy said it before but I'm going to say it again...TO THE GROUND!!

No seriously, ret pallies whinged for ages, they have more collective nerd tears than any other class, they get massively buffed and laugh at everyone else and tell them to l2p...did they really expect any sympathy when they got nerfed?

I don't mind the damage as my threat was fine by a long shot, but the mana hurts.

I dislike it when people run around saying 'class X is OP NERF' yes that class may very well be overpowered but thats not up to you thats blizzards decision. If you think they're overpowered make a constructive post as to why and Blizzard will take it on board (in before Blizz ignore suggestion forums conspiracy theory) I don't mind most stuff but its just so whingy and annoying and yes I'm off topic again but oh well.

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Originally Posted by 'Stealthy',index.php?page=Thread&postID=140092#pos t140092

TO THE GROUND BABY!

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If anyone is wondering where that phrase came from, have a look at this post from Ghostcrawler...very funny!

http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...03882&sid=2000


Cheers,
S.

Lol good ole' GC :P

Yea, it's becoming a bit of a catch phrase now :) Well, for ret pallies, they had devie storm which was holy damage. No one has any type of resistant/mitigation against it except for resilience. Changing it to physical dmg wasn't a huge nerf but imo, more of a good change.

Also, the other thing that is a bit iffy is their ability to bubble for 12 seconds and still dish out huge dmg. Now the downside of bubbling is that they attack 100% slower...this is fine, but then Blizzard decided to give them 3 powerful instant cast attacks on small cds which make the speed penalty moot. Not to mention the 2 other spells which got changed to instant cast spells.

Those above are the two problems I find with the ret spec and my reasons for it. Possibly also add in LoH becoming a 5 min spell, if you don't think going from whatever to 100% health instantly, as a dps spec, isn't OP, then there really isn't enough explaining in the world to make you understand.

PS: Now pallies can understand the mana problems which hunters have had to deal with for over a year, which are still worse than pallies.

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Originally Posted by 'valkry',index.php?page=Thread&postID=140132#post1 40132

Hmm, stealthy said it before but I'm going to say it again...TO THE GROUND!!

No seriously, ret pallies whinged for ages, they have more collective nerd tears than any other class, they get massively buffed and laugh at everyone else and tell them to l2p...did they really expect any sympathy when they got nerfed?

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The damage isnt THAT insane but the burst is crazy when HoJ'ed..

Ret paladins like ench shamans have just asked to be on better par with rogues and warriors not better just equal, and i bet most of them will be happy if they got useful like rogues/warriors. A friend of mine have played retadin trought TBC and have done arena with me and a mate (resto druid,warrior,ret paladin) A easy way would be either to drop me for a resto shaman or take a rogue wich outpreforms a paladin in EVERY and the rogue cant be mana burned either.

But facts beeing said my mate said "I can understand why people whine" so its not like the above average paladin didnt see this comming.

Lets see whats happening to mutilate rogues and arcane mages...

The best talent by FAR given in 3.0 was Dismantle as its crazy how much damage i can dish out vs people with shields..

Me and another mutilate rogue (I wear S1 and he weared s2) took down a protadin with 16k hp within 10 seconds easy.. Truth beeing said is that he DID wear pve gear so he most likley had low resillience. :)

My ret pally mate who raided with us was equal dps with rogues when put in the same group as them. I've said it before, ret was a great spec for pros to excel in and be up there, but now any noob in greens who can roll he face over the keyboard can pump out over 1k dps. It's a shame, because they will be known like the huntards now...ret-ards.

As for pvp, there are 3 classes who mana drain, but pvp is rock, paper scissors. You aren't meant to be able to beat every other class (unless you are a rogue).

Give pallies a closing spell imo (in fact, make their ranged taunt a DK/scorpian like move, would help to draw mobs to the consecration as well). That would shut a lot of them up and balance pvp. Then they could combine the closing spell with a stun, then when that wears off BoF (HoF now), have a small window of when they are kiteable (every class has to have a weakness) then be able to close again, stun, HoF again.

PS: Probably not their taunt, the cd is a bit too short for pvp use

Priest mana got nerfed into the ground. Also hello spell pushback + 2 sec cast + grounding totems, how are you today?

I have to hand it to GC, on the arse whooping he's been getting from the paladin community. I have a twink paladin in the 39 brackets & with these changes, it became pally vs pally in terms of if you died. I don't agree nerfing one spec that nerfs the whole class. Prot wasn't just hit, but holy as well. Personally, my girlfriend made a strong point in leaving things now & adjusting weeks into the xpac. They did it with druids & paladins last time. Paladins overall needed this buff, & it seems like a scam. Being a longtime Warlock player; we never in our life have been nerfed this hard or this fast, this is something for the record books...blizzards own black sheep goes home sad.

ATTENTION: Prot is getting readjusted to compensate for the dps nerf, so everyone please, stop using prot getting nerfed too as an example.

Only, and only Holy can be used. The fact that Holy is also getting nerfed is the real and only shame here. It's hard enough for healers to kill things as it is...but you know what? Blizzard is releasing the dual-specs thingie soon, so you can switch to ret easily when you want to kill something.

Blizzard will probably tweak them again before the xpac. As for them QQing about being nerfed now and being left like that because they are fine at 80...the Shamans say hi.

PS: I'm sorry tasty, I didn't realise ret pallies got grounding totems now. Also...windows...you have bubble and fear and cds to help with that spell casting.

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Originally Posted by 'valkry',index.php?page=Thread&postID=140173#post1 40173

PS: I'm sorry tasty, I didn't realise ret pallies got grounding totems now. Also...windows...you have bubble and fear and cds to help with that spell casting.

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Well they do so there :P also my previous post it should be mana burn* :)

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Originally Posted by 'Haruko',index.php?page=Thread&postID=140172#post1 40172

Being a longtime Warlock player; we never in our life have been nerfed this hard or this fast, this is something for the record books...blizzards own black sheep goes home sad.

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I seem to remember the nerfs were pretty quick when the felguard was first introduced - or that one second imp firebolt that hurt big time.

I think when things are so out of balance it becomes evident quickly and something has to be done.

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Originally Posted by 'Mokoi',index.php?page=Thread&postID=140110#post14 0110

they also said they would adjust tanking abilities to offset the nerf to ret paladins.

so uh, yeah no need to adjust your panties.

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Pretty sure I specifically quoted that part as well and even made mention of it.

Not sure if you missed that or are just reemphasizing it.

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Originally Posted by 'valkry',index.php?page=Thread&postID=140173#post1 40173

.... It's hard enough for healers to kill things as it is...but you know what? Blizzard is releasing the dual-specs thingie soon, so you can switch to ret easily when you want to kill something.
....

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Shadow priests.

Also, please don't nerf Arcane mages. I like mine a lot. Just get rid of that bug that allows rogues to have 2 weapons out at the same time and their stuns.

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Originally Posted by 'shaeman',index.php?page=Thread&postID=140191#post 140191

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Originally Posted by 'Haruko',index.php?page=Thread&postID=140172#post1 40172

Being a longtime Warlock player; we never in our life have been nerfed this hard or this fast, this is something for the record books...blizzards own black sheep goes home sad.

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I seem to remember the nerfs were pretty quick when the felguard was first introduced - or that one second imp firebolt that hurt big time.

I think when things are so out of balance it becomes evident quickly and something has to be done.

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Imp was called "machine gun imp" :D & that actually seemed like awhile for me. The felguard melee damage was hotfixed pretty fast, but Aff was outright nuts & that didn't get nerfed until what S2. I remember kalgan saying "my warrior shouldn't be getting life-drain from 100%-0%". Those are pet nerfs though, you still have the Warlock abilities you deal with as well.

This Paladin nerf takes the cake hands down on any nerf I've seen. Took a class that get's laughed at to a class that lays down literally the law then get's nerfed & GC stated a Outright nerf. Never seen that ever 8|

Still gonna RAF a paladin & see what happens. I want to tank, so I hope that gets fixed fast enough.

edit: reposting...

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Originally Posted by 'Aethon',index.php?page=Thread&postID=140254#post1 40254

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Originally Posted by 'valkry',index.php?page=Thread&postID=140173#post1 40173

.... It's hard enough for healers to kill things as it is...but you know what? Blizzard is releasing the dual-specs thingie soon, so you can switch to ret easily when you want to kill something.
....

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Shadow priests.

Also, please don't nerf Arcane mages. I like mine a lot. Just get rid of that bug that allows rogues to have 2 weapons out at the same time and their stuns.

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Arcane Mages & Boomkins are probably next. No mages lovers flame me now (girlfriend plays one). Arcane has been under the radar since paladins we're stealing the show, but there always seems to be a outcry for some class which is why I feel Blizzard needs to balance around what they feel is right, not the community. I love playing that mage now & then. Arcane barrage FTW :thumbsup:

I don't feel mages are too bad. Sure the changes to blizzard combined with aoe dmg caps raised was anoying as hell, but it won't be doing too much more dmg than it is at lvl 80.

With BoSanc and Spiritual Attunment, I was never using S/JoW anyway. The nerf that was going to hurt was SoCor, but they decided to only nerf that by a fraction of what it was going to be. With the armor changes on bosses and the fact that one of our main threat abilities is not available until level 75, i don't see this as being a big issue as far as TPS is concerned. I'm sure there are number crunchers our there that will disagree or support what I am saying here. At the most, I will be going back to the %2 threat enchant on my gloves. We will see.

Stupid retnoobs, go away so they can go nerf mages next. ;)

First they said IF prot was hit hard they would adjust, not that they would automatically adjust prot/holy DPS to compensate. Lets be honest, the ret-pallies-are-OP mantra was on beta and PTR for weeks and Blizzard waited until the patch was live for a week to tweak it, its unlikely they are going to tweak prot and holy too much more now with just 2 weeks to go.

Still prot tanking 70-80 is fine (as is bear/warrior), thats all that really matters for now. We'll see how it ends up at 80 in heroics and raids, with the armor changes its hard to say who is going to be a better tank for multiboxers still imo. I am playing around this week to let my warrior be my groups tank and see how I run heroics compared with my pally.

Being honest, with 6 months + in Beta and 2 months on the PTR before live Blizzard were either:

a) Incompetent in development, letting the retribution tree make it to live with what they now post (GC paraphrased) was (ver. 1) far higher burst damage in PvP, (ver 2) significantly higher PvP and PvE burst damage or (ver. 3) too much DPS in PvE and PvP (no mention of burst made).

b) Engaged in some underhanded shenanigans to encourage pre-orders based on incorrect information regarding the intended trees (seems unlikely)

c) Reacting to a huge amount of whining (justified or not) on the forums regarding Retribution paladins in PvP and, after about a week of normal raiding had happened, in PvE.

So the choice is either incompetence, tinfoil hat theory or caving to player pressure....

Personally, I cannot really recall any issue where they over nerfed a class and then brought it back up. What I have seen is over nerf class x. OH, wait, lets nerf Classes y and z to bring them more in balance with class x. Then a few weeks/patches later. We're going to nerf class a, b and c and boost d a little to bring them all in line with the others.

Every once in a while, we'll get a very small "such talent is now a base skill" boost, but usually nothing much.

And, I also really hate the double standards. "We're fine with where Ret DPS is at the moment" followed by "We're going to make some slight changes to ret, but not nerf into the ground" and finally, "to the ground, baby" that we're seeing now.

Is there really that much lack of testing? You don't think they could try a few things out before they go live? I'd rather have my x-pak pushed back a week or 3 and get a product that deserves my money. Not something that is "this is the best we could do, maybe we'll patch it later."

Blizzard already makes tons of money, is Activision really hurting that much everywhere else that they need to set concrete deadlines for software?

Now, playing my 60 RaF'd pally with extreme crap gear, taking on content above my normal level (to say nothing for the gear, learning curve and skills) yeah, we're very OP right now. I hate getting the cake, taking a bite and then having the cake taken away. I'd rather not get the cake in the first place!

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Originally Posted by 'valkry',index.php?page=Thread&postID=140169#post1 40169

My ret pally mate who raided with us was equal dps with rogues when put in the same group as them. I've said it before, ret was a great spec for pros to excel in and be up there, but now any noob in greens who can roll he face over the keyboard can pump out over 1k dps. It's a shame, because they will be known like the huntards now...ret-ards.

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Ret pally pre-patch was on par with rogues? I think your rogues sucked or it was a fight where the rogues could not have 100% ToT and the pally could or some other factors involved.

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As for pvp, there are 3 classes who mana drain, but pvp is rock, paper scissors. You aren't meant to be able to beat every other class (unless you are a rogue).

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Spoken like someone who has never PvPed as a rogue or has no idea how to counter rogues. Mages, warriors, druids, shaman, hunters, warlocks, pallies all have chances against a rogue in equal gear. And a rogue out of stealth is probably the squishiest target in PvP.

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Originally Posted by 'thinus',index.php?page=Thread&postID=141002#post1 41002

And a rogue out of stealth is probably the squishiest target in PvP.

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Shadow priest.

...ok I'll give you squishiest that you'll see above 1700, but it's not like they don't have ways to get away from damage. Stun, cc, sprint+los, cheat death, 90% magic resist, evasion, vanish. They may be squishy but you can't always hit them. They're also the only class you can pretty much throw into any team and be viable. No, they aren't unbeatable, but sometimes they sure seem to be.

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Originally Posted by 'thinus',index.php?page=Thread&postID=141002#post1 41002

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Originally Posted by 'valkry',index.php?page=Thread&postID=140169#post1 40169

My ret pally mate who raided with us was equal dps with rogues when put in the same group as them. I've said it before, ret was a great spec for pros to excel in and be up there, but now any noob in greens who can roll he face over the keyboard can pump out over 1k dps. It's a shame, because they will be known like the huntards now...ret-ards.

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Ret pally pre-patch was on par with rogues? I think your rogues sucked or it was a fight where the rogues could not have 100% ToT and the pally could or some other factors involved.

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As for pvp, there are 3 classes who mana drain, but pvp is rock, paper scissors. You aren't meant to be able to beat every other class (unless you are a rogue).

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Spoken like someone who has never PvPed as a rogue or has no idea how to counter rogues. Mages, warriors, druids, shaman, hunters, warlocks, pallies all have chances against a rogue in equal gear. And a rogue out of stealth is probably the squishiest target in PvP.

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Spoken like someone who can't see a joke...as for squishiest, I highly doubt that though. They have too many escape options to start QQing about being squishy.

Accept the fact that some ret pallies, unlike the rest, were/are pro. Some people will find ways to dominate with their class/spec (read: hunters and arenas, a guy hit the number 1 spot in his team. yet hunters are the least played in arenas, and arguably (with good reason) the worst arena class).

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And a rogue out of stealth is probably the squishiest target in PvP.

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Whats that? I stopped being able to hear you after sprint/evasion/clos/cheat death/vanish


:/

Was that before or after cheapshot/kidney shot/gouge/blind/sap, tasty?

Already switched to a warrior tank. Better than Pallies even for MB'ing imho at this point. Much MUCH more fun and so many more tools most of which can be easily macro'ed together.

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Originally Posted by 'Tdog',index.php?page=Thread&postID=141652#post141 652

Already switched to a warrior tank. Better than Pallies even for MB'ing imho at this point. Much MUCH more fun and so many more tools most of which can be easily macro'ed together.

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I like the BoK for my mages :) and the extra HoJ etc helps as well :)

I prefer the pallies as my tank for the buffs, the better aoe tanking/dmg, the awesome array of new threat generating spells, 3 mob taunt, ranged pull and much higher burst threat at the start. Also, pally tanks take more consistant damage, relying more on blocks to reduce damage than parries/dodges.

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Originally Posted by 'valkry',index.php?page=Thread&postID=140169#post1 40169

My ret pally mate who raided with us was equal dps with rogues when put in the same group as them. I've said it before, ret was a great spec for pros to excel in and be up there, but now any noob in greens who can roll he face over the keyboard can pump out over 1k dps. It's a shame, because they will be known like the huntards now...ret-ards.

As for pvp, there are 3 classes who mana drain, but pvp is rock, paper scissors. You aren't meant to be able to beat every other class (unless you are a rogue).

Give pallies a closing spell imo (in fact, make their ranged taunt a DK/scorpian like move, would help to draw mobs to the consecration as well). That would shut a lot of them up and balance pvp. Then they could combine the closing spell with a stun, then when that wears off BoF (HoF now), have a small window of when they are kiteable (every class has to have a weakness) then be able to close again, stun, HoF again.

PS: Probably not their taunt, the cd is a bit too short for pvp use

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A closing spell? Hammer of Justice ? Judgment of justice ? Runspeed from ret? Crusader aura ? Cleanse, bubble, freedom? What more do they really need for closing range on someone.