25-man boss assessment for a 25-boxer

Just for fun and to kill some time, I'm going to run through all the 25-man (and outdoor) bosses through Black Temple (only done up to Illidan) to think about if a MB player could do them, and how hard it'd be if so. This is assuming characters would be 70 and geared up properly for the given encounter.


Magtheridon - possible - if you had enough life on your guys and could heal through the blast wave you could down him. Maybe if you had full season 4 on everyone.

Grull's

Maulgar - almost impossible - too hard to tank multiple targets. May be possible if you were in Sunwell or T6 stuff and got the pull off onto the proper tanks. Would take incredible amounts of work for little reward.

Grull - incredibly challenging - this is probably possible with overgearing, considering people have like 6 manned it before, but a regular team would have too many issues moving away from one another on the shatters to ever down him.

SSC

1. Hydross - Possible - You'd probably need a lot of life to ensure survival of the ice cage thing. Hardest part would be the tank transitions and setting up an AOE team to take down elementals. Also, aggro management. You'd need to go very light on DPS to make sure no one pulled. As everyone knows, pulling aggro here even 1 time is a wipe. Very tricky, but possible to farm if someone spent all their time working on it.

2. Lurker - Extremely difficult, but possible - You'd need to outgear this by a lot. You'd need to probably sit your guys in the water the entire fight and AOE (COH) heal through it because there's no way you'd be able to jump up and down. A T6 geared priest could manage the COH for the duration of the fight if mana were managed well. The adds would then be the hardest part. With enough DPS it would be possible to overwhelm the casters before they became a problem, and you may be able to get all the melee guys onto your tank. This fight would take extreme levels of effort and gear to conquer.

3. Tidewalker - Extremely difficult, but possible - Your problem here is going to be the healers again. I think you'd need T6 healers for this as well because you won't be able to micromanage your mana, and the tank will be taking huge damage. Also, you need some AOE heals going for the murlocs. Once this is in place you would need to be good at switching out to the prison guys and moving them back to the group. Still, other than the prisons, the fight is essentially a high-damage tank-and-spank, so I think someone could find a way to manage it if they had great gear to hold out with.

4. Leotheras The Blind - Almost impossible. It's highly unlikely that anyone would find a way to move their characters away for the whirlwind and macro up buttons for killing demons, AND do tank transitions properly, not to mention the initial pull. I think only the best of the best boxer could keep everyone alive on the pull itself. There are too many factors to deal with.

5. Karathress - Impossible - Even worse than Leo. The micromanagement needed to keep everyone alive with so many sources of damage just cannot occur. There's no way at all you could interrupt heals, mobile tank one guy, heal everyone up, spread everyone around. This just is not happening.

6. Vashj - Impossible - This is even worse than the last. Vashj is still slightly difficult even for skilled raids who overgear it and know the encounter perfectly. You couldn't possibly handle killing 4 groups of adds and kiting striders around and then looting cores and throwing them to the center. Then phase 3 would be impossible because of how each player needs to move to a safe spot constantly.

TK

1. Al'ar - Impossible - In phase 1 I don't think you could get your tanks off and then back up properly, and I don't know if you'd be able to handle taking down the adds throughout the fight all while tanking and then moving out of fires. Too much movement required.

2. Void Reaver - Likely possible - I think that if you grouped the entire raid under him to avoid any orbs, you could do this encounter, unless he still shoots them at his feet, which I think not. All you'd then need would be to have a lot of AOE heals. If you could AOE heal through the stomps you'd down him every time.

3. Solarian - Possible - The challenge here would be to get your bomb out of the raid. If you could do it, you could beat Solarian, as none of the other mechanics require movement. Granted, this is a tall order in itself, but I do believe it's possible to, say, map a unique movement key for each toon and press that key when that toon is targetted to get them the hell out of the raid.

4. Kael'Thas - impossible - absolutely impossible. There's no way you could loot the legendaries, activate them, tank all the mobs and handle running away from the first guy. Even the simple task of downing the individual adds before the weapons come out would be a monumental task, and that's the easiest part. This fight is one of the biggest MB nightmares in the game.

Hyjal

1. Rage Winterchill - Very possible - I think that anyone geared up with PVP trinkets and a couple good pally tanks would be able to handle this encounter and the trash before it without a huge issue. The biggest problem would be some of the abomination pulls and then moving out of the death and decay. The ice block thing would be easily countered by spamming a trinket key. You might lose a couple guys from it, but no big deal. Keeping the raid in a big pack and moving them all in unison and AOE healing upon D&D would be a successful way to counter it.

2. Anetheron - Very difficult - assuming you could do the trash again, which is likely possible, the boss itself would still be problematic due to damage going all over, you'd need a lot of chain healing and group healing in general to ensure everyone got heals. The worst part may be acquiring the infernals. I am sure you'd lose tons of people to infernals. If you got good luck with infernal drops and had a constant supply of AOE and tank healing going all over the place I think this one would be feasible.

3. Kaz'Rogal - Incredibly difficult - the fight itself may be manageable if you get good luck with exploding guys and spread out well, but the trash would pose major issues since you need to split the group to do gargoyles. You'd likely have to really push hard and use Thrall to help out on trash and lose a lot of the NPCs, making the boss even less likely to drop.

4. Azgalor - Nearly impossible - The trash is even worse here, and if you somehow managed through it, the boss does some fires and dooms people to death, so micromanaging this stuff would take a miracle. I think it could be done if you spent years of dedication and got a ton of luck, but this could never go on farm at level 70.

5. Archimonde - Impossible - This fight is not even close to possible. I doubt this could even be done at 80. This is total chaos with the focus being on each person to stay the hell alive. You can not micromanage even close to well enough to handle this. Only finding some bugged safe-spot would make him remotely possible.

Black Temple

1. Naj'entus - Possible if overgeared - The first major issue you'd face that'd be hard to deal with would be looting spines. You'd need to control a guy separately to walk around and loot them, and hope that you're close enough to save lives. Now, the only way you'd be able to manage the healing once you got this down would be to have sensationally geared healers. If you had that, you could kill him. He requires no movement.

2. Supremus - Likely impossible - You'd need to keep your toons all moving at all times in phase 2 so that when he sticks a volcano on someone they would be already moving away from its center. You'd need to have huge AOE healing for when this happens, since likely all toons would be following on each other when this happened. You'd need to somehow control whomever got tagged to run them away. Because of the difficulty of keeping everyone moving, healed up, in position to tank after phase 2, avoiding fires in phase 1, kiting him and moving the kiters back to the group, i have serious doubts about if this could be done. Maybe a 25 druid group with 25 battle rezzes could get it done in a lucky pull, since he is undertuned.

3. Shade Of Akama - Possible - This fight is so incredibly easy that I am sure you could manage it. Healing is fairly light. The hardest thing would be keeping people out of fire rain. That's really the only problem here. Getting tanks to acquire their target and getting DPS to hit their targets could be macroed. Movemtn keys could probably be set up to move the DPS on the bottom enough to avoid fires.

4. Teron Gorefiend - Likely Impossible - This is a simple fight but requires absolute attention to multiple characters at once. You would have to be really good at constructs to manage it. It is possible to take down constructs with enough time to almost kill the next person's if you do it perfectly with the AOE, but while paying attention to this how could you move the construct people out of the raid and then focus on healing and dispelling? One constuct killer at a time could handle that task, but the rest of it? Maybe with mass dispel, but that requires ground clicking. Just mind-boggling to imagine how this would be done.

5. Gurtogg Bloodboil - Almost impossible - You could probably somehow manage to get the tanks going and gaining aggro and do phase 1, but phase 2? I'm not sure you could handle all the healing that goes into phase 2, as well as some of the movement and specific things the fel rage target has to do to stay alive.

6. Reliquary of Souls - Almost impossible - Assuming there's a MB player who actually has a warrior tank, lol, well how are you going to manage phase 2 with the kicks and spell reflect and then have the presence of mind to heal phase 3 enough to keep alive long enough? Not to mention just keeping aggro, which is enough of a problem in phase 2 and 3.

7. Mother Shahraz - Almost Impossible - no one would be able to move their guys away quickly enough on fatal attractions. You'd need to macro a key which moves each toon one of 4 directions and then pray that the guys picked wouldn't have the same directions macroed. You'd lose people on a regular basis. With enough tries, maybe it could be done.

8. Illidari Council - impossible - the timing on heals and moving out of fires is too critical here. The fight is too long. This is a fight which requires a very focused and disciplined raid of 25 individuals to down. If this could be Multiboxed, Bliz fails at design.

9. Illidan - Impossible - you would be able to do phase 1 most likely if you kept at it, even with shield blocking stuff and the parasites would be a huge issue, but you could never do phase 2. The tanking and healing is way too intense and specific. You can't wing it. You need to move precisely. Phase 3 and 4 would be too intense as well. Too much damage and tanking and just way too much happening. This might be multiboxed at level 90. :P

Outdoor

Doomwalker - possible - you can sort of overwhelm this guy with enough healing and tanks who grab him quickly. A 40-boxer could do it with endgame gear no problem.

Kazzak - possible - like Doomwalker, you could likely overpower this guy if you had a 40 box team.

I'm talking about one person boxing all 25 characters.

How does that list change if everyone is level 75?

It may or may not necessarily change the list but at that point, the loot obtained will likely be irrelevant.

So it'd be more of an e-peen thing.

I think that it goes without saying that 1 person couldn't do the boss fights alone. Even as a ten boxer, I know my limitations. There's too much movement/coordination that would be required. At a minimum, I'd imagine that 3 people could take down most bosses in BC (2 ten boxers, one five boxer), and i think it would be relatively easy to take down most bosses with 4 real life people (3 five boxers and 1 ten boxer).

I should point out too that you'd be at a HUGE disadvantage if you tried to box any of these with all of one class (or 24 shammis and 1 paladin). There's way too many fights that require more than one tank.

Let me summarize:

ALL 25 MAN BOSSES: Impossible

Since I'm too lazy to go into specifics. Pick one you think you have hte best chance to kill, and I'll tell you why you can't.



:D

And it is to be noted that most of these 'possible' bosses (lol "possible" is quite an interesting, wide word ) are 'behind' an impossible boss, making them impossible to reach most of the time.
Maybe Hyjal?

Good list,
Cheers,
Zub

Note that this list also doesn't list the trash mobs that are before ever reaching a a boss.
Even in Gruul's lair, the first and easiest 25 man raid in TBC, a couple ogre priests/brute (first trash mobs) could prove interesting, with their fear and charge.
Hopefully they die quick enough

This list is not made to say that anyone here has the resources to do any of these things. I'm speaking hypothetically just to amuse myself. Possible doesn't mean anyone will do it. It just means possible. I do strongly believe that rage winterchill could be taken down by a 25-man team. About the "level 70" thing, well level 80 will change game mechanics a bit so it might affect the possibility of certain encounters. Also, DPS speed matters quite a bit as does health. If everyone has 20k life at level 80, it could make some mechanics not work the same way at all. Some formerly deadly things might be pushed through.

Also, about behing "behind" another impossible boss, someone else could clear it for you if it were impossible to clear to with a MB team.

Look at it like this: If you had every class on every account geared to the teeth with infinite money, how far could you take it? Once again, keep in mind, Gruul has been, 4 or 6 manned, or something like that. Gear changes a lot about what's possible. Most MB players just would never have 25 geared characters enough to tackle a 25 man not to mention the setup for it. That's the only reason some of these bosses aren't down by one of us.

By the way, I promise this was just for fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=126508#p ost126508

How does that list change if everyone is level 75?

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It doesn't. Level 75 is nothing at all, most people will still be using their current gear until about 77-80.

I disagree with a couple things but it's fairly accurate. I think Gruul could be done without any overgearing at all. If you know the fight and you're willing to set up some special movement keys and use a near perfect raid setup. The hard part would be getting to him. Any of the others you would pretty much have to way over gear to have a chance at which point it's a waste of time to do them other then for the e-peen.

For a person that has never learned these fights like sam I don't see a single one of them ever being 25 boxed. I would love to be proved wrong though. Prepared will probably kill some world bosses with some friends helping at some point but that isn't really what I'm referring to.

Maulgar: As I commented in Sams thread, I think Maulgar is doable solo by a 25-boxer. I'd love for someone to prove that. It's gonna require gear though. A freshly dinged 70-team with 500dps pr character aint gonna cut it. This would probably be considered an exploit, since you nuke down Maulgar only, while distracting his adds.

Gruul: Was doable before cheeze death was nerfed with as few as 2-3 people, but would require gear levels way way beyond the encounter itself. Now? Doable with 5-6 super geared guys probaby, anything more than that and you'd just kill yourself on shatters (I have 5-boxed Gruul in a full raid - Trust me, you will NOT survive shatters consistently with anything more than 5 guys).

Nothing in SSC, TK, BT, MH, SW will be possible, mostly due to thrash mobs. But to take only bossencounters into consideration, and to theorycraft on whats humanly possible, lets see.

Hydross: He was soloed by a singleboxing warlock back in the day, but that exploit was fixed. Long since I was in SSC, but if I remember correctly his attacks will go to 400% damage. If you you a top shelf geared tank he will probably be able to sustain this damage indefinitely with enough incoming healing. So it could be reduced to a tank & spank fight. Ice tombs aren't problematic if you spread the raid out nicely. I cant remember whether the adds spawn right away, or the first time you're forced to move hydross over the invisible line, but capped frost res on the maintank (5 items?), plus best in slot for the rest of the itemslots, the movement could possibly be avoided.
Lurker: Nope. Here's a nice picture of our first guildkill of Lurker =)

Morogrim: Healers will take aggro on adds and die, so no, not possible (consecrate you say....hehh, yeah right!).
Leo, Karathress, Vashj: Hell no.

Alar: Nope.
Voidreaver: Maybe with a team fully decked out in arcane resistance gear. The fight itself is really simple. The only problem would be beating his 10 minute enrage timer in resistance gear.
Solarian: Probably quite doable. Before she was nerfed, hell no. But since they made the fight easier with "the bomb", sure. The bomb is easy to detect with bigwigs addon and raidicons. The challenge would be to interrupt the heals of the 2 priest adds.
Kael: Hehh...

MH, BT, SW...are you kidding me? Maybe a couple could be done with a level 80 team.

Bottom line: 1 person will never be able to do much beyond tank & spank, or full on nuke (not even with a brain-to-computer interface), as long as you dont allow some kind of automation or AI. I don't care what people can do in other mmo's. Wow is lightyears ahead of everyone else when it comes to raid encounters, and it's the ONLY game offering such complex scenarios.

When gruul was done with the small group of 5-6, wasn't that with the unhittable dodge rogue as tank?
and at grow 30 (which would insta kill anyone who got hit) Gruul reset to grow 1 i think as blizzard probably never expected the fight to take that long. (considering 'normal' tanks of that gear level usually get one-shotted at grow 17-18+)

Unless this was done with a 'normal' tank group (which i'd love to see, youtube link?) then you can't really compare.
Just like you can't say that Hydross is boxable, just because it has been 1 manned before by warlocks and 'creative use of pathing/game mechanics' :-)

actually, according to Sam's definition those warlocks are probably the top wow players :-) Solo-killed the highest boss anyone has done solo hehe

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 'TheBigBB',index.php?page=Thread&postID=126469#pos t126469

8. Illidari Council - impossible - the timing on heals and moving out of fires is too critical here. The fight is too long. This is a fight which requires a very focused and disciplined raid of 25 individuals to down. If this could be Multiboxed, Bliz fails at design.

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With one person trying to box this, yes it's impossible. With multiple boxers, I could see this being very possible (even if you had some people who merely 2-boxed).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 'kayb',index.php?page=Thread&postID=126575#post126 575

Bottom line: 1 person will never be able to do much beyond tank & spank, or full on nuke (not even with a brain-to-computer interface), as long as you dont allow some kind of automation or AI. I don't care what people can do in other mmo's. Wow is lightyears ahead of everyone else when it comes to raid encounters, and it's the ONLY game offering such complex scenarios.

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I'm going to have to disagree with this, as again, it all depends on your setup. One person running 1 type of classes on 1 computer may not be able to do some of these encounters. I am agreeing with the sense that most/all 25-man raids can't be done with a single person. However, if you're actually running more than 1 machine with keyboards available and different keys being passed through different characters (e.g. no 1 single auto-follow macro, because one follow macro is failure in any design beyond a tank-and-spank), then many things are attainable.

Wait..wat? You disagree with me, but....you also agree with me? I'm confused.

Im assuming you dont agree with me on the following statement: "1 person will never be able to do much beyond tank & spank, or full on nuke (not even with a brain-to-computer interface), as long as you dont allow some kind of automation or AI."

Sure, you can mash a tanking macro on the warrior, and mash a healing macro on 5-6 healers, and a dps macro on your ranged group. You can also move groups around and crowd control targets. Can you do Netherspite? I'd like to hear the counteragrument...what CAN you do?

Lets say you own 25 computers. How many keyboards beyond 1 do you think it would be practical to use?

Some bosses are doable, karathress in scc can be solo tanked by a pally (theres youtube flics about it) but for the rest;

gruul & maulgar; i dont see it happen, but i would gladly be amazed ;)

maggy, perhaps, but picking all adds up, getting them down before he comes lose and getting the nova down, err.. no but next to karathress perhaps the best option to try

scc, only karathress (because of the polly tonk) imo the rest seems to be having too much movement for 25
mh, boss 1 (forgot his name) is fairly tank and spank, and if you nuke hard enough or take target of target macro's and trinkets, mm who knows, but doubtfull
bt, najentus perhaps, if you get 1 char to pick up the spines, chain heal/up enough after and before the shield pops, you have a chance there tbh

other bosses then the ones i named i dont really see happen, but ofcourse i would be gladly amazed :)

Lurker would sure be doabel, a shaodwpriest can heal a full party in the water, even in kara geared shadow priest cna do that


i cant find that video of a paladin aoe tanking karathress, can anyone link it ?

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Mrc1ivr48R4

pala doing karathress

People on Magtheridon server for the love of god can you take 5 five boxers and zone into Gruuls lair. Pew Pew and see what can be done. Who knows maybe you can kill High king before the adds get to you and then the add's disapear. I know there are 3 or 4 five boxers on the horde side of azagalor but they are either leveling/new dinged 70's. It seems a shame that "the multibox server" hasn't even attempted this once.

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Originally Posted by 'Sam DeathWalker',index.php?page=Thread&postID=126508#p ost126508

How does that list change if everyone is level 75?

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It doesn't change very much, because levels are not really the problem with most of those fights. Most raid bosses require you to split your attention, often more than two ways and in patterns that aren't entirely predictable. Levels and gear can help you last longer, sometimes long enough to outlast a boss that you wouldn't have otherwise (example, Nixi beating Shade of Aran/Illhoof by absorbing damage that a normal group would work to avoid). But for the most part the need to divide your attention many different ways works against a single person who is controlling the entire raid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 'kayb',index.php?page=Thread&postID=126638#post126 638

Wait..wat? You disagree with me, but....you also agree with me? I'm confused.

Im assuming you dont agree with me on the following statement: "1 person will never be able to do much beyond tank & spank, or full on nuke (not even with a brain-to-computer interface), as long as you dont allow some kind of automation or AI."

Sure, you can mash a tanking macro on the warrior, and mash a healing macro on 5-6 healers, and a dps macro on your ranged group. You can also move groups around and crowd control targets. Can you do Netherspite? I'd like to hear the counteragrument...what CAN you do?

Lets say you own 25 computers. How many keyboards beyond 1 do you think it would be practical to use?

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You're right, I apologize. I read your post a little bit closer, and now I see what you mean. For whatever reason, I was NOT thinking about this from 1 25-person's point of view. If 1 person tried to run 25 characters; you're absolutely right - chaos would ensue. As someone else has already stated, I'm really simply appalled at the fact that there haven't been any TEAMS of boxers who would group up to do these encounters. Almost all of the encounters on the list (minus Archinudon), would almost be trivialized by having multiple people each running a few characters. That's what we hope to accomplish over on the Burning Legion (US) server anyways. It seems like there's been a lot more activity on the boxing scene lately, and I'd love to see us working together to make progression both in the BC and in WOTLK - again, I'm POSITIVE that we could do most/all of these encounters, and I'm sure that we could do it faster than having 25 individuals trying to get through something. Hell, our raid setup times would be cut in half (at a minimum), not to mention that once we figure out where everyone needs to be/what everyone needs to do, it seems as if it would be easier telling one person ok, do this - rather than 25 each doing their own thing.

Think about the wipes that you've had in your guild(s) on various encounters. From personal experiences, I've noticed that most of the time we wipe because of several inattentive players, or we're just completely unprepared for the encounter. Also, consider the messages and chat-sever talk that follows, especially after a wipe. Ugh. I'd rather do encounters with a group of boxers than 25 pseudo-random guildies any day, but maybe that's just me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 'Suvega',index.php?page=Thread&postID=126532#post1 26532

Let me summarize:

ALL 25 MAN BOSSES: Impossible

Since I'm too lazy to go into specifics. Pick one you think you have hte best chance to kill, and I'll tell you why you can't.



:D

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I agree with you.

With all of the knockback / spread out + move fights in 25 man content, I seriously doubt you are going to kill anything in a 25 man unless you have help. I could see, at the max, 6 raid slots being taken up by boxers. Either one 5 boxing team, or a couple of 2-3 boxing teams. The rest of your raid would have to be a few tiers over the content you are working on for sure.

Still, if one of you can make me eat my words, I will praise you like the God you are.

I agree that you need to reduce these fights to tank and spank as much as possible, which is what I tried to see if I could reduce the bosses into. I didn't know a pally could tank all the Fathom Lord adds by himself, so certainly that might make the fight sort of possible. Of course this must require a T6 paladin tank with nice heals.

To the people who say nothing in MH or BT could be killed, I absolutely think this is wrong. Many of these bosses are severely undertuned. Mother is a pure tank and spank once you have the resist gear, with only one tough mechanic being the three people who get the fatal attraction, and if you bound movement keys to random directions you might be able to spread them out and then regroup up repeatedly to get out of it. Would take some luck as I said. Najentus is also a pure tank and spank if you can loot the spines. Akama is super-super-super easy so even with the problems faced on him it could probably be macroed and keybound out to be possible.

By the way, is trash really a big problem? If you set up mage sheep macros before each pull and had a lot of constant mindless AOE heal COH/Chain heals going I don't know if you'd have any trouble on trash. Trash is usually just to make sure people are awake. If your healers and CC aren't watching TV you usually down it.

Neh ppl are far to negative over here, you could prolly fill a raid with fiveboxers and get a whole lot of content down. Too bad i dont have that at my dispossal. Actually you should see the benefits, for example tanks with private healers (no more whining on ts/vt), biggest problem though, loot deviding? ;)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by 'Los',index.php?page=Thread&postID=126758#post1267 58

Neh ppl are far to negative over here, you could prolly fill a raid with fiveboxers and get a whole lot of content down. Too bad i dont have that at my dispossal. Actually you should see the benefits, for example tanks with private healers (no more whining on ts/vt), biggest problem though, loot deviding?

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Haha. My point exactly. I think the initial message of this post was "AS ONE (1, uno, single) 25-boxer, you wouldn't be able to do these bosses."

Cheers.

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Originally Posted by 'kayb',index.php?page=Thread&postID=126575#post126 575

If you you a top shelf geared tank he will probably be able to sustain this damage indefinitely with enough incoming healing.

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Here's the problem with Hydross... you can't block his damage, period.

Even with max frost resist and amazing gear in the other slots you won't last long at 400% dmg... my tank was fully T5 geared with capped frost resistance and even resisting 75% of his damage the 400% hits are still too brutal. All it takes is ONE hit to go through unresisted and you are dead.

I actually thought it wouldn't be a problem to do hydross as normal. Well, it'd be tough but I think the fight never really stops being a tank and spank with occasional add spawns. Just have to have some different movement binds and skill binds for each tank so you can move them and then gain aggro with them separately.

here is the biggest problem:

There are only 2 people in the world, apart from chinese farmers, who are even attempting 25 man multiboxing. Prepared and Sam. Prepared is now what, just hitting around level 60? Sam is like at level 10 and probably will take 6 months to hit even 60.

To even have a ridiculously small chance at ANY 25 man boss, the characters have to be DECKED OUT THE WAZOO. Full s4, or T5+ and badge gear. None of that can be achieved in a few weeks, it would take over a year to gear up 25 people to this level.

So the whole thing is just theorycrafting, sure a 5 man team right now could go and kill Lucifron in Molten Core but nobody would care much (I 3 manned some MC trash the other day while waiting for BRD party, coulda kept going easy). Likewise, six months from now a single multiboxer could go and kill Mag or Lurker at level 80, but it really wouldn't mean much. BTw all these encounters do have adds which eventually can get out of control, its doable but would not be easy and a single mistake would lead to quick wipes.

A better question is, what will MBers be able to do in WOTLK -->> EARLY ON <<--. Not after two years when bosses drop iLevel 200 gear and everyone is in iLevel300 PVP/badge gear, but early on when everyone is equal.

I've only played a few mins in a Naxx pug, it was pretty hard with 10 different people, lot of AoE and precise movement required. Perhaps 2 multiboxing teams will be able to do 10 mans, maybe not all the bosses, but some. A single 10 man mb person like Nixxi may be able to do some. Prepared is the only one who is going to be able to say whether a single person can do a 25 man boss, but I don't know if he plans to level to 80, how long that would take, and whether he is even remotely interested in PVE.

Well puppychow, I listed most of the bosses and impossible or nearly so, and talked about how I thought it would take years of work in some cases. So let's not pretend that I thought someone was going to do this. The theory is fun in itself, but also no one would ever attempt a 25 man raid without first considering the theory.

I'm raiding naxx now. Spiderwing cleared and Noth down so far. It looks pretty doable as 10boxer. It's way way too easy at the moment, so it will probably be retuned for retail to be harder. Still, it'll most likely be easier than karazhan was at level 70.