http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...79768787&sid=1
I've added certain quotes to the GM conversations page. It's a GREAT read, though... Well worth the time.
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http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...79768787&sid=1
I've added certain quotes to the GM conversations page. It's a GREAT read, though... Well worth the time.
You gotta hand it to malkorix,
one person calmly explaining something to essentially thousands of people,
that simply do not understand the whole issue, has to be exhausting.
Reminds me of highschool :whistling:
My poor poor teachers xD "What do you mean we need to learn algebra?! We are never going to use it!"
This response, IMO, is illustrative of "intransigent disagreement," as the poster quoted above stated previously in the thread. It basically shows you that no matter how "logical" the anti-MB arguments seem to be, when confronted with logical counter-arguments and the reason why Blizzard approves _from_ a Blizzard poster, they still fall back on being subjectively outraged by "being effectively one-shotted by a single player." Further, this anti-MB poster shoots herself in the foot by actually telling us that arguments based on "the mechanics of game balance" are antithetical to practical gameplay and really don't matter because that mean old multiboxer just one-shot me and there wasn't a thing I could do about it. Of course, if she'd have been steamrolled at the bridge in AV by a horde rush, that would have been OK because a multi-player zerg isn't as OP as a single-player zerg.Quote:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...Id=98786900482
Once again it doesn't address the outrage of being effectively one-shotted by a single player because that player is issuing simultaneous commands to multiple characters. From the point of view of the average player exposed to it, the game mechanics of this are seriously unbalanced.
You appear to be citing theory about the mechanics of game balance and yes, thats pretty much how you try to design games. Almost every time I watch it happen as a practical matter the one multiboxer is hugely OP because the Players in the BGs just don't conform to the intended mechanics for a long list of reasons. Multiboxing is only one of the issues that emerges from this disconnect.
If your players refuse to conform to your intended mechanics does Blizz change the game? I've watched them do it repeatedly...
See what she did there? :P
Honestly, I'm always amused by people getting bitten in the ass by their own arguments. Almost as much as them constantly proving that their complaints have nothing whatsoever to do with policy or reality, only the subjective ignominy of being stupid enough to try to take on 5v1 without support. :P
It is nice that Bliz / the community are spending their time educating the masses. Here is hoping that some of it sticks this time.
People always ignore the negatives:
"Please note that equipment acquisition for multi-boxers tends to be considerably slower than that of single players. Battlegrounds offer one of the only viable means to acquire items at a reasonable rate, in fact. It is more difficult for them to level trade skills, acquire gold, get badges of justice, they don't generally get to raid at all, tend not to do well in arenas, etc.) "
Oh man i LOVE this thread
i just love a good debate
and i also know when i see a debate on false pretenses...
this Kaideline gives me pure Rage....
or as some other said:
I give kudo's to malkorix, and the NUMOROUS other posters who aided him in giving a pure and simple vision on the subjectQuote:
"A rose by any other name is a rose. So is a troll that writes quite nicely and calmly. There's no answer that Blizzard can give you, and there is no real answer that you're looking for. It's a difference of opinion, and until we play World of Kaidelinecraft, it will remain such. "
i just wish kaidelin our little troll would stop hiding behind his/her false pretenses and stuck up vision and agree in some sort
instead of that he/she keeps falling back on the same remark, the remark which has been dissipated by every poster behind him/her.
bleh.. im drunk and tired... and i dont know how to describe this better in english, i know exactly how to name these types of behaviour in dutch. as mentioned i just love debating.. especially against people who dont like to loose and fall back on the same old pretenses :D
Very interesting read. Thanks V!
Too bad the GM kept rationally describing all the ways multi-boxers are disadvantaged compared to other players. That part was rather depressing. After reading that whole thing I'm almost convinced we have no chance when facing a "normal" team of five. He did note that MBers typically do very poorly in arena, and he should know.
Well, I must admit my 5v5 record of like 83-280 makes me pretty easy to convince. :P
oh wow oh wow oh wow....
kaidelin offering help to new multiboxers:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...493944&sid=1#9
kaidelin defending multiboxers????:
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...8881&sid=1#135
well seems kaidelin is leaving for WAR anyway ;)
http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/th...48051&sid=1#15
such a nice little forum troll :D
That's pretty much it in a nutshell. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Talos',index.php?page=Thread&postID=120930#post12 0930
That troll Kaid is the one that I end up sparring with the most. I've given the same explanation that Mal gave him a million times. Funny stuff, I must say.
I think hes an undercover bliz employee. All this debate only fuels the flames of multiboxing desire! MO MONEY for Bliz!
Yeah, but using PUGs or bad players to make the point is exactly what people like Kaideline do. Her rationale for disallowing multiboxing? That it grants an "overwhelming" advantage in BGs because of bad PUG groups.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=120986#po st120986
Any player controlling a single character who has access to a busy-enough guild will not wait for PUG groups to form. I play in a guild I helped start with RL friends and which we grew with people who became friends. I've played WoW since November of 2004 and have been in something like three or four PUGs. And I am not exaggerating. I *never* run PUGs. And I definitely progressed faster than I would have if I'd been multiboxing, since my friends play on pretty much my exact same schedule.
As for that thread, keep in mind that Kaideline is one of numerous people who has said that they will continue to beat the dead horse because she believes that if enough people complain enough times, Blizzard will remove multiboxing from the game just to quiet them. Any attempt she makes at showing that she is "coming around" to our side is likely to be fake. She tried as hard as she could to push the idea that if you consider it on a player basis and not a character basis, that it's hard for Blizzard to defend the practice, and would not accept Blizzard's point of view that it is the character that matters to them. She wanted to make it seem as if Blizzard was trying to hide from the truth by using characters instead of players. It's funny to watch her try and take the high ground by acting as if she's after calm and rational debate when she has threatened to quit over multiboxing in the past, and when she has proposed that people keep bombarding the forum with complaints in order to 'force' Blizzard to forbid multiboxing. It's like someone saying "Man! I'd shoot my mom in the face if it would stop multiboxers! Oh, um... I'd also feed hungry children if it stopped multiboxing! Yeah, feed the hungry! Right on!"
[quote='Tonuss',index.php?page=Thread&postID=121030 #post121030]This is the particular point I'm concerned with because I believe it ultimately will prove to be true. Despite Blizzard specificaclly saying it's ok, even to the point of using a 3rd party program to do so and having access to the data of exactly how many of us are out there. I think ultimately they will cave. They have caved on almsot every single issue.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=120986#po st120986
some examples:
Warlock nerfed into the ground
Fear nerfs
Multiple AV changes
Arena ratings to placate raiders
Racial nerfs
PvE to PvP
And these are just at the top of my head.
Blizzard has done it to itself really too. The prove time and time again, whine long enough and often enough it will get changed. Really, repeated forum Trolls need to get banned. From the times I was playing SoE games, they were never shy about banning forum accounts.
Edit: I don't see how my post got attributed to Tonuss ....it's outside the quote boundries, hmmm I fail at forum posting lawlz.
I disagree. Correlation does not equal causation. Blizzard has made many changes to the game. Some of those changes came after people complained for the change, some have come after people complained AGAINST the change. Some of those changes have come after people complained for more than a year, which means one of two things:
> if you complain for more than a year, Blizzard will give in. Or...
> Blizzard makes changes based on its own analysis of the game, not because they are influenced by complaints.
The thing about multiboxing is that Blizzard reps have gone out of their way to explain their support. Multiboxing isn't something that they feel is borderline and "are watching." It's something they feel is fine and they continually take the time to explain that they have no problem with it. Heck, their reasoning for not allowing PvE-to-PvP transfers was always a bit suspect (since they wouldn't allow it even if you'd leveled to 70 on a PvP server and transferred off). But notice how long it took for them to change their policy. People say it's because of the complaints, but that just doesn't wash. Looks like they saw a reason to open up the transfers on their own (population imbalances and the problems with high-end raiding guilds recruiting) and decided to allow it.
If Blizzard made changes based on the crying and whining on the forums, rogues would be underpowered and twinks would not exist.
I don't believe the complaints will cause anything by themselves. ToS / EULA changes don't occur based on whining; they occur based solely on Blizzard's understanding of a problem.
This is entirely an e-peen problem. One "fat slob with pimples that lives in his mother's basement" being able to 1 shot me just isn't fair!!! Never mind it was 5 characters. Some people just refuse to acknowledge the difference between player and character. Nobody here has EVER one shot another character. We all have controlled our characters and maybe 3 or 4 or 5 shot someone but it was never ever a single shot that killed them. Unless people acknowledge this difference they will always disagree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=121123#po st121123
I remember that just prior to TBC and the release of new talents for 70's at 60. I was getting 1 shot on my priest in full T2. It was frustrating. Kinda remebmer raiding ended about that time too due to the tanks not being able to pull off enough threat to counter the dps.
I knew I could count on you :). We are not pre BC any more. But yes I was one shot by a mage and one shot other people with my warrior pre BC. And actually just the other day I one shot some one on my rogue, but they were level 34 so .... you know what I meant.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=121123#po st121123
I like seeing how often they ignore the Blizzard rep's posts completely. They choose to argue posts a few on top of the Blizzard reps, hoping they can put in enough filler that people won't pay attention to the Blizzard reps.
When was the last time you and your friend next to you got 1-shotted by 5 shaman in a BG that were being played by individuals, ie not multi-boxed?Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Ughmahedhurtz',index.php?page=Thread&postID=12091 3#post120913
The fact remains that 5 characters being played by 1 person has much better coordination than 5 individuals especially in places like AV where you are facing PuGs with no coordination most of the time. I think it is mostly a problem with shaman, other classes don't stack that well.
I actually find it funny.
In daoc multiboxing was a non issue. I am going to guess because as DPS either you used assist or you didn't run in a group. The assist train was king. Hell even in a PUG in DAOC everyone knew who the assist was.
Win the CC war, assist train people down, healers hide.
If people learnt how to effectively assist in and heal in WOW PvP Multiboxers would be speed bumps.
I seriously suggested in the WoW suggestion forum they make a new realm type, called either "No Multiboxing" or "Multiboxing" (with free transfers for affected Multiboxers). It is after all a play style like RP, PvE or PVP.
Tho seriously, I couldn't see a multiboxer ever being on a RP server... so maybe its already there.
Uhm, actually, I played a hunter since launch - trust me, when aimshot with Ashr'athul (xbow from BWL, 3.4speed) and 6/8 Tier 3 + 3/8 tier 2 critted a full tier 2 mage pre-tbc, the mage just disappeared. (is "critted" even a word?)Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Caspian',index.php?page=Thread&postID=121112#post 121112
Back then, we didn't need mortal strike, because people simply had too few hp. As a hardcore raider, battlegrounds were a laugh. Guild presets steamrolled pugs like you have never seen it since. I grinded to rank 11, just to get all the pvp mounts (yes, back when faction was needed, and grinded out by turning in 2400+ stacks of runecloth) and the fastest way to grind rank 11, was to run Arathi Basin 8-9 hours a day for a month. 500k honor a week, to be amongst top5 on the server. AB runs took on average 6 minutes to win, going most often 2000/10 or 2000/0. In each, any encounter was most often finished with Scattershot -> Aimshot+Multi and arcane if they somehow survived. Yes, it was ridiculous. I seriously melee'ed down 2handed warriors, simply because we were bored waiting for the counter to reach 2k. Only games that ever lasted much longer, was against other presets. And we won 90% of the games against presets too.
This was usually 4-5 shamans, 2 warlocks, 3-4 hunters and random healers. Arcanite Reaper with Windfury - trust me, if WF procced on the first hit, stuff died back then. Instantly. It may technically have been a "3shot" but everyone knows how instant windfury was.
Anyways, on thread: indeed, we are very powerful. But as allready pointed out, so is the assist function in the hands of capable players. 40 druids going to orgrimmar shows just how effective it is, when the "ion-cannon" is switched on :)
/mwu
The razor-sharp coordination that a multiboxer has, works best when he is facing one or two targets which he is able to spot at a distance. If he's caught off-guard and at close range, the disadvantages become much more glaring. I agree that the main issue is that shaman totems interfere with both fear/charm and ranged spell casts, and stacking them can create an imbalance in a PvP situation. I am thinking that at some point, Blizzard will look into totem stacking and find ways to bring it in line for PvP. I think they're being careful with it because shaman are a relatively rarely-played class outside of multiboxing, in part because of PvP issues. Nerfing totems to curb multiboxing could hurt the class a lot for "single boxers."Quote:
Originally Posted by 'thinus',index.php?page=Thread&postID=121183#post1 21183
In any event, some time back when I was playing arenas with guildmates, we ran into a team of five shaman. It was not being multiboxed, and we beat them pretty handily the first time we saw them. Then one or two matches later we ran into them again and they wiped the floor with us by... you guessed it, stacking totems. They hadn't done that the first time, but they learned fast. I never saw that team again, but I don't arena much so I don't know if they were just a novelty. But they learned to stack totems pretty fast, that was for sure.
Yes I know "back in the old days" things like that could happen, and did frequently. I was a full T2 prot Warrior, with Windfury fully buffed I was well over 10k HP. I don't think I ever lost a WSG flag in a premade. I also ground rank 10 (I didn't want the mounts) on a Warlock with 30+ minute queues, while raiding 7 days a week. Only needed about 100-120k honor to make top 20 on my server though.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Mwuanno',index.php?page=Thread&postID=121375#post 121375
Back then there were also a lot fewer boxers.
The whole point of my post was that now, when there is this big movement against multi-boxers with people complaining that we one shot them, nobody is one-shotting anybody. We may be effectively, as a player, be taking out 1 other player in game but it is not one character killing one character - it is however many characters you control killing one character. Multi boxers do not one shot other players in PvP, we 3 or 4 or 5 shot them perhaps, but not one shot.
The trick is to separate the player from the character. It is not easy to do. The Warrior I talk about up there is Caspian, it was the first toon I rolled. For a long time I was Caspian. When I stopped playing him and switched from alliance to horde*, it was an emotional separation. I will still log onto him and check out his bank and get sad because I don't play him anymore. People become emotionally attached to their in game persona. It is a big part of why the game is so addicting. So when another player comes along and beats them, especially if it causes them to lose a game, and if that player is special and seemingly unbeatable because they control 5 characters where they only control 1, it can be an emotional event. Hence all the hate and nerd rage. So we need to try and get people to disassociate their physical self from their character self. Malkorix was trying to do this. It was the basic tenant of his position. Now, getting the forum trolls and the mental 13 year olds with the way oversized e-peen to recognize this is probably impossible. But if we stick to a sane argument, with Blizzard obviously on our side backing us and using the same argument, maybe one day one of them will listen.
*I switched from alliance to horde becasue my raiding group was falling apart moving past Grull. My daughter played horde and her guild needed more DPS so I rolled a rogue to play with her. Now everything is horde including all my boxing toons.
What was your point? Dead is dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'thinus',index.php?page=Thread&postID=121183#post1 21183
QFT.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Tonuss',index.php?page=Thread&postID=121433#post1 21433
The majority of the QQ about "invincible" and "all powerful" multiboxers is actually a QQ about shaman stacking in disguise.
"Back in the day", when people QQ'ed about multiboxers when the 1xpriest/4xmage and 1xpriest/4xwarlock groups were standard -- the response was "kill the priest you noob".
Totem stacking is a bit imba, but you're right. As a solo shaman prior to multiboxing, and having to stomach the horribleness that is shaman PvP -- if they nerf totems, the solo shaman community (small as it is) would riot. Not that they don't riot already (dotshocks, bus shocks?)...
I've been instantly killed MANY times by 5 individuals. It doesn't take much for 5 to kill one. What do shaman have to do with it? If target coordination were the best way to win BGs, take 4 friends into a BG and tell them to follow you around and assist off of you and follow you. You wouldn't do that because it's not actually the best way to win. Focus fire has its place, and the smart MB player will try to find roles where it shines. But if you could have 4 friends play your alts, you wouldn't have them do the same things as they do when you box it. You'd have them do much more. People who complain about MBers need to just go find some buddies and go into bgs with them on vent.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'thinus',index.php?page=Thread&postID=121183#post1 21183
I'll be waiting for the multiboixng Thunderstorm QQ train to start up then. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=121608#po st121608
Seems to me some of these people that sport the "this game should be balanced based on players and not characters" argument should take some time to view there argument from the other side of itself. What if you put 25 humans in control of a 5v5 team. Equip them with all of the hardware, software, dedication, and class knowledge that multi-boxers have at their disposal simply because they put the time in. Despite the fact that 2 humans controlling the same toon through say 1 on keyboard 1 on mouse would be a violation of account sharing (lol). Then maybe they would understand the power that multiple humans control. Imagine how expertly a character could be played with one person in charge of line of sight and movement, one in charge of interrupts, one in control of targetting and strategy. All of that control on one toon could be arguably hard to deal with due to more than one person trying to use the same global cooldown, or your CC player targeting his sheep only to have your spell caster use his NS+CL macro expecting his damage target to still be targeted. Now that sounds an awful lot like me accidentally PoM+Pyroing my own sheep because of re-targetting lag. While given the time and equipment to master these issues, it could make that 25 player team seem mighty coordinated despite being only 5 characters, it does not mean that 1 toon with 5 humans controlling it should stand any better chance against 5 toons with 5 humans just like their 1 human 1 toon does not stand against our 1 human 5 toons. I'm sure people much more familiar with multi-boxing arguments could masterfully word this to help shut up the people constantly saying that their 1 shadow priest should be on equal ground as your 5 ele shaman simply because you are both 1 player.
Or maybe they would think you were agreeing with them and continue to chew on their shoulder.
Quote:
Originally Posted by 'Fursphere',index.php?page=Thread&postID=121608#po st121608
Stacking non-like totems (i.e. Grounding + WoA, Healing + Mana) won't change.
Raid totem stacking is a buff and a nerf for shaman. As a raiding shaman, it's EASY to get into a guild because stacking resto shaman (for the heroisms and buff totems) per group was a decent strategy. In WoTLK, you'll need no more than 1 of each spec -- and maybe not even that. Given that Blizz has been heading for an equal distribution of classes in a 25 man raid, 2-3 of each class should be their target...
Shaman were good in raids because their totems were tuned for 5-person groups -- so you wanted 1 per homogenized group of 5 (1 enh in the melee dps group, and a bunch of resto's -- and maybe an elemental -- in the healer/caster dps groups. Tank groups can even sometimes have a resto shammy laying WF or agi).
Multiboxed shamans are completely OP thanks to the fact that they are maximizing the effect of an class ability (totems) that was tuned for a 5man group. It's the min/max for multiboxers -- in raids, you min/max by putting a shaman in each group so that you get a whole rotation of heroisms and everyone benefits from buff totems. As a multiboxer, you min/max for 5 mans by taking a class that was designed for a 5-man group and stacking it to oblivion.
Now, totems going to be tuned for raids, effectively nerfing them royally in 5-person groups. This is why certain totems will fail to stack any longer -- think about how exponentially worse it would get in a 25 man raid. To compensate, we're (supposedly) going to be given equal dps to pure dps classes. What will this mean for multiboxers? In actuality -- I'm glad. There was much more diversity in group setups (granted, there were a bit of the 4x caster + priest scenario, but even then you had warlock and mage flavors) -- and I'm looking forward to see what people actually come up with rather than following the current min/max trend.
In any case, that was completely offtopic. ;)
well now that they are lifting the pve->pvp restriction I might move my old raiding warlock over to my group. I agree with you that there will be more potential for diversifying the multibox 5-man, though I think pally tank will still be the way to go.
This is actually a pretty interesting point. I've used this concept in other games. I easily passed a few impossibly difficult expert drumming songs on Rock Band by having another person focus on the footpedal and me on the sticks only. (Of course, I eventually learned to do it myself.) Anyway, It's a good thought experiment and shows why Blizzard is doing the right thing by focusing on character balancing only, regardless of how many or few people are playing the characters. You can make educated guesses about what's happening behind someone's computer, but there's no reason to. Balance the character skills and forget about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'genocyde',index.php?page=Thread&postID=122104#pos t122104
In my opinion this is a sign that pvp in wow is not very advanced. When fighting other players, focused fire is the best way to approach things. In eve, this was the primary focus of pvp, and the reason we used ts. Wow has macros that would allow players to do this more automatically in pugs and premades, yet players rarely do. As a result, they have scattered fire and healing.Quote:
Originally Posted by 'thinus',index.php?page=Thread&postID=121183#post1 21183
I've only gotten to the 2nd page, and I'm actually enjoying the blue posting something tangible, and some people actually agreeing.. It's as though things that have been said in the past, once turned blue make sense to the general public. Albeit, I was very pleased with his example of levers and gears his arguments about play style have been said before.. I guess it is nice for an official to say it, but at the same time frustrating since these are the points we've been trying to explain to people in the beginning. Once we realized it just fell on deaf ears alot of people had just given up. As of late, alot more people are more educated on the issue but it's amazing that some people cannot accurately depict the problem still believing it's a 1v1 situation, or realizing the arguments on each side.