[shaman] ToW change - is it really a nerf?

Printable View

08-29-2008, 03:29 PM
BobGnarly

[shaman] ToW change - is it really a nerf?

So far, I don't believe they've said how much spell damage this totem will supply. This totem is making me scratch my head a little. If it doesn't stack with flametongue, why get it (mob crit debuf??).

So yeah, we really don't know much, but I see a lot of people really bummed out by the fact that these totems don't stack. Honestly, I think it was always a "bug", but even so, it's possible that this may work out in our favor.

In my other wow life, I play a mage, and in my RL, I've always been peripherally interested in math. One day, that lead me to start contemplating the relative merits of spell crit % and spell damage. I'll spare you the details (although I do have a pretty nifty web-based calc for this I'm working on), but the upshot was that 1% spell crit on a moderately geared character was approximately equivalent to 8 spell damage.

Let's say you have a group of 5 shaman, each dropping ToW (15% crit)...that's approx equivalent to 120 spell damage. Now I have no idea what the spell damage component of this totem will be, but let's say it's 101 ala live Wrath of Air. I would hope it's somewhere up there, being a 41-pt talent, but we really have no idea so I'm just throwing this out. As you can see 101 is < 120, but it's not really THAT much less, and you are only drop one fire totem to get it instead of 5. Additionally, you also have some percent crit chance on the target if the totem is in range (which I suspect will frequently be the case for us multiboxers), which should bring that disparity even closer together. I'm basically ignoring the +hit component since it tends to not mean much to us since we don't frequently raid, and shaman have other pretty good methods of obtaining that attribute.

Again, only 1 totem supplies this all, meaning I have 4 more fire totems slots that I can use for whatever. This means that I could have one of these down WITH those searing totems.

Lastly, this was assuming 5 shaman. In other configs (like the venerable 1 paly 4 shaman), it's even less of a nerf, or possibly even a buff, given these numbers.

I know this is all pure speculation at this point. We just don't know that much, and who knows, this whole buff stacking thing (or the shaman part of it anyway) could completely change. I just wanted to point out that perhaps the sky hasn't quite fallen yet on the elemental 41-pt talent.
08-30-2008, 11:26 AM
TheShox

Hey Bob I have some answers for you.

I just grouped up with another Shaman on the beta realm of Northrend and we tested a few totems to see if they stack.

Currently, Totem of Wrath, Flametogue Totem AND Flametongue Weapon do in fact stack, but in a strange way since ToW is bugged. Totem of Wrath at Rank 1 gives 100 spell damage and 160 damage at max rank.

Totem of Wrath is bugged where it only applies to +healing. After the other shaman dropped wrath, +100 healing went up (he didn't have the new ranks yet), then I dropped Flametongue Totem and dmg/healing went up by 62 (I'm only 65 on the beta realms). I have Lava Flows, so Flametongue Weap adds 83 damage. For a total of +245 spell damage ONLY if the +healing is applied to spell damage and if they allow it to stack. Also keep in mind that they have not added any additional ranks of Flametongue Totem or Weapon. Not sure what is up with that.

I have really low spell damage since I'm still working on my 5 man team, so my base was 348 damage/healing. The final char screen looked like the following with me having Lava Flows, Flametongue weap buff and +100dmg ToW:

Bonus Damage - 493
Bonus Healing - 510

The +3% crit is a debuff on the enemy so it will not show up on the Char screen.

We also tested healing and mana spring totem. They actually do stack. Yes, mana spring is currently stacking with ticks. The healing stream is ticking for more as well. With Rank 5 it was ticking for 62.
I sure hope they will allow the different spell damage totems to stack with different shamans in the group. Something tells me they will be jerks and say no to that.

-Shox
08-30-2008, 11:50 AM
Zaelar

I vaguely remember something about something stacking with party members but not raid members even though the effect was applied to all raid members, IE it could be that only the strongest totem works raid-wide but they all stack party-wide. Keep in mind I could be remembering this from a dream so don't take this as blue text.
08-30-2008, 01:46 PM
Vyndree

Is it just me, or does this look "wrong"?

Quote:

Totem of Wrath (Tier 9): Summons a Totem of Wrath with 5 health at the feet of the caster. The totem increases the damage done by spells and effects by 100% for all party and raid members, and increases the critical strike chance of spells and effects by 3% against all enemies within 40 yards. Lasts 2 min.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?topic=14309.0
(emphasis mine)
08-30-2008, 01:54 PM
Metalocalypse

Looks like a typo if you ask me, if you check the talent list it goes like this:

Quote:

Summons a Totem of Wrath with 5 health at the feet of the caster. The totem increases the damage done by spells and effects by 100 for all party and raid members, and increases the critical strike chance of spells and effects by 3% against all enemies within 40 yards. Lasts 2 min.

http://www.mmo-champion.com/index.php?page=663#
08-30-2008, 04:49 PM
Jaese

And on their talent calc it says 160. ?(
08-30-2008, 05:35 PM
twobztwop

I don't know. Generally speaking I think it is a nerf. Though i only really relied on tow for PVE. Especailly given that you could get PVP gear with no +hit on it and run heroics and not have to worry about getting resists. But who knows how everything will play out in wolk. I'm, and I think lots of people here are too, hedging my bets with raf and alts.
08-30-2008, 06:21 PM
TheShox

Totem of Wrath now has 4 Ranks with increases as follows: +100 spell damage, +120 spell damage, +140 spell damage, +160 spell damage

The description has that nice little extra % next to it which could mean a crap ton of damage, but it is just a typo. Sometimes I wonder if blizzard hires elementary kids to spell for them. As I mentioned, it is also bugged where it applies to +healing and should only apply to +spell damage.

What I don't understand is why Flametongue and Totem of Wrath are both fire totems. Totem of Wrath should be moved to earth so the soloing shaman can benfit from both. I mean its a 41 point talent that is just an upgrade to an already existing +spell damage totem. What are they thinking?
08-30-2008, 07:12 PM
Metalocalypse

Flametongue totem en Totem of Wrath won't stack
08-30-2008, 08:11 PM
Alemi

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Metalocalypse',index.php?page=Thread&postID=11333 7#post113337

Flametongue totem en Totem of Wrath won't stack

Lots of stuff is still broken on beta, and currently some weapon enchants are still bugged in the last patch 8885, ToW isn't being applied correctly - it's actually reducing the mobs chance to be crit, and all rezzes are broken (I kid you not when I say you get the "You're target is dead." message when trying to rezz someone). Flametongue weapon and ToW will stack, but the Flametongue totem should not stack with all the others.

Keep in mind when this change goes gets fixed, +160 damage from Totem of Wrath from 1 shaman will boost the effective damage of the other 4 shamans fire totems. And it's uncertain if Wrath of Air's haste will effect searing totems. I haven't had a chance to test out Wind Shock either, since it's not trainable - lol.
08-30-2008, 10:39 PM
Jaese

4 ranks?

Fuck that. Just going to have to learn to PvE without it.
08-31-2008, 05:15 PM
BobGnarly

wow, 160?

If it stays at that level, and stacks with flametongue, then I patently declare this a huge buff to this totem. 1 (new) ToW is going to be quite a bit better than 5 (live) ones, and that's not even considering the fact that 1 vs 5 opens 4 other totem slots.

hope it stays this way.
09-01-2008, 12:16 AM
Stealthy

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'BobGnarly',index.php?page=Thread&postID=113724#po st113724

wow, 160?

If it stays at that level, and stacks with flametongue, then I patently declare this a huge buff to this totem. 1 (new) ToW is going to be quite a bit better than 5 (live) ones, and that's not even considering the fact that 1 vs 5 opens 4 other totem slots.

hope it stays this way.

Imagine the live Wrath Of Air Totem being changed to require 41 points in Elemental and there you have it. Craptacular effort from Blizz IMO.

And the new Wrath Of Air totem is pretty sucky as well. 5% spell haste? That means a spell that normally takes 1.5 secs to cast now 1.425 secs...

I preferred it when you could have the +spell dam from Wrath if Air and the crit for Totem Of Wrath.

Cheers,
S.
09-01-2008, 01:16 AM
Schwarz

I don't think either the Totem of wrath or Bloodlust/heroism nerf will effect people as bad as they think. I ran a couple heroics last night and didn't use bloodlust or totems of wrath. Big suprise not much was different except it took a little longer for the bosses to die. I think that when Wotlk comes out we might not be able to jump directly into heroics. The day i dinged 70 I started doing heroics. I think in the future we are going to have to gear out our toons a little before we jump into "end game" content.
09-01-2008, 01:31 AM
Stealthy

Quote:

Originally Posted by 'Schwarz',index.php?page=Thread&postID=113907#post 113907

I don't think either the Totem of wrath or Bloodlust/heroism nerf will effect people as bad as they think. I ran a couple heroics last night and didn't use bloodlust or totems of wrath. Big suprise not much was different except it took a little longer for the bosses to die. I think that when Wotlk comes out we might not be able to jump directly into heroics. The day i dinged 70 I started doing heroics. I think in the future we are going to have to gear out our toons a little before we jump into "end game" content.

Thats true - since in PvE we're getting CC, in the form of Hex. The real effect will be felt in PvP though, where burst and casting speed are king...

Cheers,
S.
09-01-2008, 04:48 AM
Ayoe

A locked post is linked here. I believe the OP was referring to the most recent patch notes.
a typo or something..... :wacko: but hey if they wanted to double caster damage, they could just double
the hit points of the mobs. Soon we can crit for 1 million dollars (Dr. Evil)